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saw the new Tomar Blade today......

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eLightbars.org Forum -> Lightbars, LED lights, strobes, and beacons

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Mark C. Senior Member Joined: 27 Aug 2005 Posts: 1892 Location: East Kingston, NH	Posted: Tue 8-Nov-2005 18:11    Post subject: saw the new Tomar Blade today...... I have to say, I'm quite impressed. Very low profile, very high light output. Equal to the Liberty in terms of off axis, seems to my eyes a bit brighter straight on. This may be due to the more concentrated reflector modules, I'm not sure. I don't care for the LED takedowns and alleys, this function is much better served with halogens. The major drawback is the price however, the model I saw was fully loaded (8 heads front and rear, I think 2 or 3 on the sides, with the LED TD and alleys) and it was close to $3000 (selling price, not sure on dealer cost). That is substantially more than the other brands, and I think you could get just as good of a bar for much less. It does appear to be high quality just like all the other Tomar products though.
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Insider Manufacturer Representative Joined: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 143 Location: Gilbert, AZ	Posted: Tue 8-Nov-2005 19:37    Post subject: The Blade might be the ultimate in flexibility when it comes to pricing as you can add or subtract modules easily and upgrade or downgrade the modules themselves to fit nearly any budget. It is true that a blown out bar as you saw will be on the high end of pricing but it is also on the very high end of performance as well. A more modified Blade with four of the standard modules on the front and five standard modules on the rear should retail for under $2000. Go with the Low Current module and drop down to four modules in the rear (comparable to the configuration of a standard Liberty or 2100) and your looking at a retail under $1700 in most cases. And don't forget that the Low Current module still has 6 LED's in each module (as compared to some Liberty's that only have 4 LED's in each module). Each LED Takedown and Alley module (two modules make up the takedowns and one each for the Alleys) are equivelant to a 37 Watt Halogen, but with the advantage of having a five year warranty and a sharper \"light cut off\". What I mean by that is that the bleed over of a halogen takedown is very high but with the LED takedown where the light goes is very defined. The advantage of this for police work is that the takedowns will illuminate a vehicle in front of you without illuminating the officer standing to the side of his or her car. You don't get this effect with halogens because the light bleeds over to the sides so much. They are different and perhaps would take some getting used to just as some of the new car headlights do but in the long run I think they will be very effective while carrying all the other popular aspects of LED's over other light sytles. The Insider
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Pj Turbo Poster Joined: 18 Aug 2005 Posts: 2371 Location: Federal Plaza, Manhattan, New York County, NY, USA, Earth	Posted: Wed 9-Nov-2005 12:16    Post subject: As someone who has worked LE, I want some of the bleedover, especially with the different typed of vehicles of all shapes and sizes. Plus it helps define the sholders for embankments and what not when walking around the vehicle. The MX7000 and the Edge bars do this nicely.
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Insider Manufacturer Representative Joined: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 143 Location: Gilbert, AZ	Posted: Wed 9-Nov-2005 22:35    Post subject: Good point, PJ, but this can be accomplished with the Blade by simply angling the takedown out a bit. They are adjustable and especially if you order them to be placed in the outboard positions they could illuminate a much broader area. I would assume each department might have it's own preference.
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Mark Y. Frequent Poster Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 1196 Location: Victoria, BC, Canada	Posted: Wed 9-Nov-2005 22:43    Post subject: I saw the bar at CopsWest a few weeks ago. I had the same feeling about the takedowns and alleys. Pretty good, but halogen is still far better suited to the purpose. What Insider calls \"sharp light cutoff\", I call \"focused on one point in front of the bar\". If your target vehicle is stopped just at the right distance in front of you, it'll be in the hotspot of the lights. Too close or too far (or, if the patrol car is canted sideways as most tend to do during highway stops), the beam misses the car altogether. I had the takedowns demo'd to me by Tom, the owner, and he pointed that out without me even saying anything. As PJ alluded to, the idea of TD's is to wash the scene in high-powered light. Having the TDs in the center of the bar is ok, but having them closer to the outside of the bar is better. Wider light spread. The Raydian bar has the TDs in the feet of the bar, almost on the edge of the car. It's awesome for blinding the target vehicle as those big 50watt lights shine almost directly into the rearview mirrors of the target car. This makes it pretty much impossible for the suspects to see anything the officers are doing, which, as most LEO's will tell you, is the idea. As far as \"might be the ultimate in flexibility when it comes to pricing as you can add or subtract modules easily...\", most bars can do this. The FedSig Vista SL and Arjent (and all the other FS bars we sell) can all be configured to have 1 module in them, or completely loaded up. I'm curious to know how Tomar powers it's LEDs. I assume via a 'ballast' method with an active voltage regulator? There was some talk about the module's layout, too. It looks almost exactly like the whelen linear LED module, which of course is patented. Wonder how Tomar got around that one? Or, did they? Not a bad bar for a first attempt at a low-profile bar, though. I give Tomar an A for effort on the LED takedowns, but a C- in execution.
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Insider Manufacturer Representative Joined: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 143 Location: Gilbert, AZ	Posted: Wed 9-Nov-2005 23:09    Post subject: Some very nice points Mark. I suppose that until the bar has been on some cars in action at night none of us can know for sure how the LED takedowns and alleys will perform, but they do have advantages over halogen from the standpoint of the common advantages any LED would have, ie lower amp draw, longer live, longer warranty. There very well may be some disadvantages in some situations so we'll have to see about that. As far as the flexibility issue, it's not just a matter of numbers of modules but the offering of three different types of modules to choose from as well (High Power, Standard, or Low Current). As far as the layout is concerned, I know nothing of Whelen's design but I can tell you that the optics for the Blade's LED modules were designed based on TOMAR's existing RECT-37S strobe lamp. Thanks for reading and the valuable input! The Insider
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Pj Turbo Poster Joined: 18 Aug 2005 Posts: 2371 Location: Federal Plaza, Manhattan, New York County, NY, USA, Earth	Posted: Wed 9-Nov-2005 23:36    Post subject: From the replacement standpoint, replacing a $10 halogen blub every couple of years or so doesn't bother me. There is just something about the color temp of the halogen that makes life easier at night.
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sycamorefireandsafety Banned user Joined: 09 Nov 2005 Posts: 193	Posted: Wed 9-Nov-2005 23:45    Post subject: The Blade To get a few things straight, Whelen does not have a patent on their LEDs. They have a patent on their optics which surround their LEDs. Whelen, CODE3, FED Signal, and other comanies all use the same type of LED. Whelen uses a Batwing Luxeon LED with their own patented optics. (www.luxeon.com) How do I know this? I used to create my own LED products and there are many different types of LEDs out there that are made wholesale and that's where these companies purchase them. TOMAR, however, has spent the last year making their own unique LED. That is why, at this present time, Tomar is leading the LED industry for LED products. With an intense viewing angle at nearly 160degrees, if a RECT25 (Tomar's new product, the blade is made up of RECT25s sold as a seperate product) is positioned 5 ft above the ground facing the ground, you can see the narrow beam the light puts out and measures over 10 feet wide and there is still more light that goes beyond the beam. For those of you that have seen them, you know what I am talking about. Also, we have tested the Blade (low current) next to a CODE 3 Halogen Light, Whelen Freedom Bar, and the 911ep Galaxy. The results: 2 Rect 25s (2\"x5\") out did the entire halogen bar with take downs on. The 911ep held up against the Tomar Blade until we turned the Blade on...end of that. When the Whelen and the Blade were both on the relatively same pattern, the Blade had a very distinct, intense RED/BLUE but the Whelen had a soft purple glow. The Whelen Freedom also did not have intense side lighting like the Blade produced. About 1/2 mile away, the Blade started blurring out the Freedom bar which was very surprising because I always hyped on the Freedom bar prior to seeing the Blade. Our sales in the LED category has been dominated by the new Tomar products, the Rect25s and the Blade. For more information on these two products visit: www.sycamorefireandsafety.com . Our prices are very low for Tomar products and known for some of the lowest in the country. If you have any questions I am not biased toward any product since we carry them all matt@sycamorefireandsafety.com . We also have the capabilities and top notch product line to furnish entire police and fire vehicles. The Blade starts at about $1300 and goes up from there. Matt
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Mark Y. Frequent Poster Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 1196 Location: Victoria, BC, Canada	Posted: Thu 10-Nov-2005 10:47    Post subject: Re: The Blade [quote:ff0c669b3e=\"sycamorefireandsafety\"]To get a few things straight, Whelen does not have a patent on their LEDs. They have a patent on their optics which surround their LEDs. Whelen, CODE3, FED Signal, and other comanies all use the same type of LED. Thanks. You're preaching to the choir here. Most of us know that all manufacturers buy from Lumileds. I didn't say that they copied Whelen's LEDs, I said they copied the modules (read: LEDs, optics, etc.). If you look at a Tomar LED module in the blade, and a Whelen LED module, they look identical. In your statement above, are you saying that Tomar is manufacturing their own LEDs, not buying from Lumileds? Hmmm. As far as your claims regarding light output to 160 degrees or whatever, I have to call bull**** on this. Perhaps the LED does it when it's not affected by any optics (I know they use side-emitting LEDs), but in the optics it doesn't have a light beam that wide - it takes the side-emitted light and funnels it into a cone just like everyone else (on their \"fruit loop\" 3x7 LED modules). I was in the booth across from Tomar for 14 hours over 2 days. Trust me - I looked at their lights a lot. I know Tomar had claims on their round-lensed LEDs like \"full light output to over 45 degrees\" which is just plain lies. You can clearly see that their light output to 45deg is a small fraction of the straight-on light out of those modules. The RECT25's seem to be good light modules. They do have a flat beam that's very wide - very similar to the Solaris modules, which have a beam width of over 45deg off axis to each side. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying they haven't done a good job. But statements like \"Tomar is leading the field in LEDs\" is a big pile. How can you say that when they haven't even released the bar for sale yet? Tomar is 3 years behind the times here - other manufacturers have had low profile LED bars out for some time now, and this is Tomar's first kick at the cat. I have no love for Whelen or Code 3, as anyone here will tell you, but we all know that Tomar never hesitates to breach another manufacturer's patent. Whether it's the Whelen LED module vs. the Tomar linear LED module, the FedSig smart siren vs. the Tomar 840 siren (2 patents broken on that one), or others, they just don't seem to care. Heck, on your website you even call their LED \"TIR technology\". As far as your 'testing' goes - I assume you eyeballed all this, you didn't test with a photospectrometer or anything? Brightness isn't everything, my friend - design, including off-axis lighting, features, and more make an effective system. The 'big 3' manufacturers could make bars far brighter than the Blade, but they'd use more expensive LEDs and draw 30 amps. They don't feel it's required. You also note that \"I am not biased toward any product since we carry them all \", yet the only thing on your website is Tomar. What else are you a dealer for? M

Back to top    URL sycamorefireandsafety
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Posted: Thu 10-Nov-2005 12:28    Post subject:
Actually the Blade has been for sale for quite some time now... Tomar has been behind the times for most products, but then all of a sudden ahead in the end like their strobes. They were a year behind on those and in the past decade I haven't seen another strobe like it, for emergency vehicles. We've carried pretty much every product manufacturer besides Code 3 and nova. Our website isn't completed yet so that is why only Tomar is on there at this time. I could have used a photospectrometer, but that's not what matters when everyday people come in contact with an officer trying to run lights and siren to a call. All that matters is what can be seen quicker and used more efficiently. M

Back to top    URL J. Thompson
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Joined: 27 Aug 2005
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Posted: Thu 10-Nov-2005 12:41    Post subject:
Quote: Our sales in the LED category has been dominated by the new Tomar products, the Rect25s and the Blade. Is this because of the specific geographic locale that tends to lean towards the Tomar product line, or has this been an advent of new product sales in a area that was dominated by another manufacturers product? Just trying to put that statement into perspective. Hopefully the LED market will fair well for Tomar as they late-bloomed into the strobe market. I was very impressed with Tomar at one time, and hope their product offering expands in the LED market, as I might start buying their stuff again.

Back to top    URL sycamorefireandsafety
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Posted: Thu 10-Nov-2005 12:52    Post subject:
We carried 3 or 4 lines of LED product lines, but in the past month it's been \"I want the new Tomar.\" I don't remember this big of a fuss over any other new product line that came out in prior years. It's a great product line, and I encourage you to look into it. Matt

Back to top    URL J. Thompson
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Posted: Thu 10-Nov-2005 12:57    Post subject: Re:
[quote:c1535553ab=\"sycamorefireandsafety\"]We carried 3 or 4 lines of LED product lines, but in the past month it's been \"I want the new Tomar.\" I don't remember this big of a fuss over any other new product line that came out in prior years. It's a great product line, and I encourage you to look into it. Matt

I am quite sure it is, and will definately do so, as the product expands into availabilty in this area. Or when Hays/Travis County Texas start equipping their units with the newer LED products Back to top    URL Pj
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Posted: Thu 10-Nov-2005 13:47    Post subject:
Hmmm. As of last night, you don't have any pricing on the Blades and states \"Taking orders now\" not hasn't been released. Whats up with that? Seems to be the Larry of Motorola here (for those who know who I am referring too). Just my pot stirring statements. Tomar might have some neat stuff out there, but they definatley need someone in the engineering department for astectics (sp). Most of their stuff is just butt-ugly to look at.

Back to top    URL Mark Y.
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Joined: 29 Aug 2005
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Posted: Thu 10-Nov-2005 18:51    Post subject: Re:
[quote:2830488f61=\"Pj\"]Tomar might have some neat stuff out there, but they definatley need someone in the engineering department for astectics (sp). Most of their stuff is just butt-ugly to look at.

I agree 99% with this statement, but I think the Blade is actually pretty sleek looking. The mounting feet that they had on the bar at CopsWest were awful, but the bar itself is pretty nice.

The only thing with ultra-low profile bars in general that we've had comments on is that from a distance (1/2 mile or more), the small lighthead size makes depth perception difficult. I think this is why you see most vendors have bars between about 2\" and 4.5\" high. That, and also because they're fitting LEDs into their existing strobe and halogen chassis.

Tomar has a pretty nice bar with the Blade, but the statements that the above poster was making seemed (were?) overstated and inaccurate and claims like that really tick me off. While it's at the least a decent bar, it's not the ultimate LED bar. I haven't seen an \"ultimate\" bar yet, and perhaps it's not possible as each department has different demands from their equipment.

The Blade has been \"taking orders\" for some time now, but I don't believe any have been delivered to distributors or customers - prove me wrong? Even the Canadian rep didn't have one last month, to my knowledge. Certainly none of his major accounts up here had seen it.

Cheers
M Back to top    URL James Harrow
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Posted: Thu 10-Nov-2005 19:32    Post subject:
PJ---that's typical of these \"online\" stores...that's all I'm sayin.

Back to top    URL Insider
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Posted: Thu 10-Nov-2005 21:53    Post subject:
Oh boy, lots to get to here. I'll try to be as helpful as I can. Quote: In your statement above, are you saying that Tomar is manufacturing their own LEDs, not buying from Lumileds? Hmmm. TOMAR's new RECT-25 modules and the front and rear modules found in The Blade lightbar are not using Lumileds. Quote: I know they use side-emitting LEDs The side emitting LED's are only used in the 37, 34, 79 and PAR-36 lamps. The RECT-25 and none of the LED's in the Blade are side emitting. Quote: I know Tomar had claims on their round-lensed LEDs like \"full light output to over 45 degrees\" which is just plain lies. I've never made this statement and I'm pretty sure that there are no official TOMAR statements to this affect. That's not to say an over exuberant salesman or distributor might not have said it. But the off axis visibility on the 37 and even more so on the 25 is truly outstanding. It's my OPINION that TOMAR does have the best optics in the industry, and I do believe TOMAR intends to produce a White Paper supporting this opinion soon with empirical data. Stay tuned! Quote: Heck, on your website you even call their LED \"TIR technology\". Actually, \"TIR technology\" is not unique to any manufacturer, and thus not really patentable. That's an industry term meaning \"Total Internal Reflection\". You can read about TIR here if you'd like: http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/refrn/u14l3b.html That TOMAR copies others is an argument that gives me tired head so I won't go into it other than to say that I can name 10 different things TOMAR has done that was copied by others and then later TOMAR was accused of copying the copier! Being smaller than the other three major players in the industry has made if more difficult for TOMAR's innovations to be properly recognized. Quote: I was very impressed with Tomar at one time, and hope their product offering expands in the LED market Thanks James! Why don't you come up to Austin for the Texas EMS conference next week and stop by the TOMAR booth to see the Blade and the new RECT-25 LED's for yourself! Seeing is definitely believing! Also, all six of Austin/Travis County's new ambulances will be equipped with all TOMAR LED's. They are truly outstanding. Quote: The mounting feet that they had on the bar at CopsWest were awful The production mounting feet will sit down more. Quote: The Blade has been \"taking orders\" for some time now, but I don't believe any have been delivered to distributors or customers That is correct. Blades should begin shipping very soon, perhaps some actually going out by the first of next week. Hey guys, I love this discussion. I hope I am helpful. I truly respect everyone's opinion and know that some people will like certain products while others will like something else completely different. That's what makes America a great country! The Insider

Back to top    URL J. Thompson
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Posted: Thu 10-Nov-2005 22:36    Post subject:
Quote: Thanks James! Why don't you come up to Austin for the Texas EMS conference next week and stop by the TOMAR booth to see the Blade and the new RECT-25 LED's for yourself! Seeing is definitely believing! Also, all six of Austin/Travis County's new ambulances will be equipped with all TOMAR LED's. They are truly outstanding. I am going to be tied up in class all next weekend so I will not be able to make it. If you happen to be an Tomar dealer in the Austin area, I will be happy to set up a alternate time/place to meet up with you to look stuff over. Probably after the first of the year. BTW.. would you happen to know what Tomar dealer was at the Municipal Fire School this past summer @ TEEX/College Station? I looked over some of his stuff, of course after wading thru about 2500 FF's.

Back to top    URL tvsjr
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Posted: Thu 10-Nov-2005 22:51    Post subject: Re:
[quote:f6001c25ed=\"Pj\"]Seems to be the Larry of Motorola here (for those who know who I am referring too).

BAHAHAHAHA. Although he's not *quite* the rabid fanboy as your friend and mine. Back to top    URL Mark Y.
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Posted: Thu 10-Nov-2005 23:12    Post subject:
Insider, Thanks for your comments. Regarding Quote: That TOMAR copies others is an argument that gives me tired head so I won't go into it other than to say that I can name 10 different things TOMAR has done that was copied by others and then later TOMAR was accused of copying the copier! I was trying to say that Tomar is breaching patents. I'm not sure about the LED module as I don't know Whelen's status on this patent, but I do know your siren breaches at least 2 patents from FedSig. 1) programmable via the front control panel and 2) digital cable to the amp. That's why the Cencom isn't front panel programmable, and why Whelen doesn't use a telephone-style cable to the amp. In true Whelen style, of course, they try to sell this as an advantage! As far as the statement to \"full light intensity to over 45 degrees\" - take a look at your own site -it's all over it. Here http://www.tomar.com/products/tled/tled.htm is one. You seem fairly technical - do you know how Tomar is powering their LEDs? Is it a ballast type power supply, or a passive-type regulator system? I'm also still very curious about your LEDs. So - no side-emitting LEDs (it was a good idea, by the way), then whose LEDs do you use?? Cheers Mark

Back to top    URL Insider
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Posted: Sun 13-Nov-2005 22:23    Post subject:
Hi Mark, I've replied to your questions about Federal Sig patents in a new thread titled, \"TOMAR, Patents, and LED's\" The Insider

Back to top    URL sycamorefireandsafety
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Posted: Mon 14-Nov-2005 12:14    Post subject: Dear Mark Y
Dear Mark Y., In my claim \" if the RECT25 is positioned 5 ft above the ground facing the ground, you can see the narrow beam the light puts out and measures over 10 feet wide and there is still more light that goes beyond the beam,\" you said that this was a \"plain lie.\" Well, here it is: If you want to get technical I'm 5'10\" so the light is probably just under 5' above the ground. Also, the brightness which you claimed needed to be measured by a photospectrometer... This is one (1) Uno...2x5 RECT25 lighting up an entire concrete stadium side. Before: After: I think I proved my point...w/o a photospectrometer...

Back to top    URL J. Thompson
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Posted: Mon 14-Nov-2005 12:40    Post subject:
Two quick questions. How far away is that structure the RECT25 is shining against? And which flavor of RECT25 is that? If I read the literature on those correctly, there are 6 and 12 LED versions available, and low/medium/high power. That would help put some perspective on that light for comparasion purposes. Please correct me if I am wrong, or misunderstood, as I am not real fluent on Tomar's LED products, but that demo is fairly impressive. Aslo, for the Insider, I will actaully be making the trip to Austin this Sunday for the exhibition at the TDH EMS conference. Will make it a point to swing by the Tomar booth.

Back to top    URL Pat H.
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Posted: Mon 14-Nov-2005 14:22    Post subject: Re:
[quote:21299ebf7c=\"J. Thompson\"]Two quick questions. How far away is that structure the RECT25 is shining against? And which flavor of RECT25 is that? If I read the literature on those correctly, there are 6 and 12 LED versions available, and low/medium/high power. That would help put some perspective on that light for comparasion purposes. Please correct me if I am wrong, or misunderstood, as I am not real fluent on Tomar's LED products, but that demo is fairly impressive. Aslo, for the Insider, I will actaully be making the trip to Austin this Sunday for the exhibition at the TDH EMS conference. Will make it a point to swing by the Tomar booth.

Actually, from what I have understood; they are available with 6, 9, and 12 leds. Not just 6 & 12. Back to top    URL Pj
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Posted: Mon 14-Nov-2005 14:25    Post subject:
Funny you should show that pic. I was down at Station House Products helping Chuck getting a Mini-Freedom going, and we saw the same kind of light pattern coming off of the Linear8's and Corner12's all over the place. Neat stuff.

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