LEDs... does brand even matter any more?

John Marcson

Looking at LEDs available from Whelen, Code 3, tomar and even FedSig I am beginning to wonder if maybe we have reached a point where any major company's LEDs are plenty bright and selection can be based on price and ouside appearance.

I have seen all major brands clos up and in action.... I really have to say that any GEN III LED seems plenty bright to me. I see people argue the LED X vs tir vs tomar and I wonder who's eyes are really sensitive enough to tell the difference? There are of course still knock offs and GEN II stuff that doesn't stack up next to the new stuff... but as long as its the current technology, I see little to no difference. The companies use the same LEDs, its just a different reflector/lens that accounts for any tiny diffence that may be present at all.

I saw a bar with solaris modules next to a whelen liberty and code 3 LED x 2100. I can honestly say they all looked like LEDS from far away. Then when I got up close it was just the \"shape\" of the flash that was different. I would feel VERY well covered with any of those bars.

John

J. Thompson

Dana

Lightbars? There has to be a change soon, since selling solely on price is not the world's most profitable situation.

Lightheads? Still a lot of diversity -- Whelen's clearly trying to make LED's as palatable to the strobe buying market as possible. Code3 seems way behind the curve on lighthead and even lightbar configuration. Federal....well, they just want the Ford contract, I think.

I wonder if the market's moving toward more advanced control of lighting, having lights do many things. Code3 did that with their stingray, among other examples, but the flexibility of LED's make it a lot simpler to imagine many new ways to skin the cat.

Doug (MD)

We had a fatal stabbing the other night, and special called a mini-pumper from mid county for lighting for the PD. When MP55 showed up, it was lit to the gills with Code 3 LED-X heads, to include a full sized bar and a couple mini-bars on the side. Anyway, the point is that the LED-X bar does the job rather well, as well as the Freedom / Liberty, as well as the Solaris bars. So, all in all, I think I'd agree with John that they all pretty much do the job.

John911

It is still important to look at these \"lighted\" LED lightbars in real-life situations in order to determine what is best for you. Just \"being impressed\" by bright light at a nighttime scene is not enough.

How visible is the lightbar on a very sunny day?

... from off angle (curvy roads, urban situations, intersections)?

... from slightly above/below horizontal plane (hilly areas)?

Also - how well built/designed is the product? Are circuitboards exposed to vibration or corrosion? Is heat being managed properly? What level of service will you get if/when it may be needed?

Price is indeed not everything!

bisho1p

I have the following LEDs mounted to my front grille, and they are effective day or night. Have to use a flasher with them , but they are great. I am using the 3x7 LEDs in the bottom right corner of this picture.

C3Chuck

Good points by all. The visible difference is slight between brands, from a distance, other than flash patterns. I think there's still a place for halogen rotator/intersection/TCL lights. I'd feel much safer in an urban environment with moving lights bouncing off of buildings when approaching an intersection. LEDs don't seem to grab my attention as quickly.

Insider

There are two factors that I believe most differentiate LED products currently:

1. Optics: Everyone's LED is very bright right on center, but how about at 45 degrees?

2. Heat Management: This is the LED dirty secret no one wants to talk about. Heat in the LED causes both permanent and non-permanent degradation of light intensity. Some are definitely managing this better than others but most customers won't find this out for maybe a year or two after a product has been purchased and suddenly the LED's just aren't as bright as they used to be. Pay very careful attention to heat dissipation.

The Insider

jeeper2269 · Regular Joined: 28 Aug 2005 Posts: 277 Location: Oregon

But, I agree with you guys about the intensity of the LEDs from far away. County has a Fed Sig LED bar and its very bright from far away. The only thing I could tell differant was that the blue seems a little bit closer to a purple tint than the Whelen. A Whelen rep came out and demonstrated the Liberty Bar, and we were all impressed with how bright it was, even in the day. In fact, that was one departments problem with them, causing them to put a dimmer switch in their cars,, and even shutting the rear modules off when in pursuits. Anyway, an important thing I found, was that Whelen's products have the scan lock feature which is easy to use and select flash patterns. It also has a better off axis brightness than the others, in my opinion at least. They are definitely all very bright, and do the trick when dead on, but we have a large amount of curvy roads, which requires us to need better rear visibility and off axis. So, we will be going to the liberty bars, as long as budget allows.

Brent-WATTCO · Regular Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 870 Location: CA, NV

Its not the LED - its the ability of the companies Optics engineer to design the better mousetrap..

Now draw per led vs. output is where you will see the changes in the future..

We are already aproaching strobe and halogen in draw per lighthead in some units... it will be to diminish draw while increasing output

Mark Y.

Brent is correct - it's all up to the optics engineers to figure out how best to direct the light.

There are obviously other issues that determine better/worse bars;
- price
- cosmetic appearance
- mounting flexibility
- configurations available
- flash patterns
- SAE compliance (light output, RFI, etc.)

It's something that's rarely talked about on this board, but SAE compliance can be a huge issue in larger fleets. For large tenders, it's not uncommon to see requirements for SAE 595/845 and J1113 (RFI). RFI (radio frequency interference) is one that came as a surprise to most people - thinking LEDs had no RFI. Of course, this is incorrect as evidenced by many manufacturer's 'ballast' type power supplies and their related problems. No surprise that Whelen changed from 'ballasts' to the passive regulator system before too long. I believe most of the remaining companies (other than Whelen & FedSig) use ballast type systems which are plagued by RFI - both in terms of interference (noise on the radio) and desense (radio getting overloaded by RFI and won't pick up faint transmissions). Desense is by far the most overlooked problem, because you can't notice it unless you're extremely observant and know your radio system.

the \"heat thing\" is still a major issue, though most major manufacturers have handled it. Watching the manufacturers at a trade show is interesting. Some will leave their bars on all day, and others (no names mentioned) will turn theirs on and off throughout the day - letting them cool down. Immediate red flag! They'll tell you they're turning it off because it's \"too intense\" or some other bs, but it's to allow the LEDs to cool off before they discolour. When evaluating any LEDs for sale, make sure you judge them (for colour and brightness) after 30 minutes of being on. Anyone can make bright LEDs for 2 minutes, but keeping them bright and true coloured after half an hour is tricky. Even the SAE specs say to test LEDs only after they've been on for 30 minutes.

Cheers
M

Brent-WATTCO · Regular Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 870 Location: CA, NV

The last part is kinda funny because the last show i was at the mgmt actually made us turn them off because of complaints they were too bright... I do not even notice it anymore...

But seeing we were pissing off people i guess we (Whelen) is plenty bright for now..

Well till next week.

Mark Y.

They made you, at a lighting show, turn off your lights? Too funny. Hope you got your money back on the booth rental. I would have told them to provide sunglasses to the attendees if they were that concerned. Smile

M

FD7FF

Well as the visibility of LED light bars come to play, you have to look for companies that can give you LED/strobe and yes, even halogen combinations. Take a whelen Delta lightbar for example. Ive seen them mounted on some apperatus with 5 rotators up top with halogen takedowns and blue TIR6's on the top level, while on the bottom there had to be 2 sets of blue/white TIR6's, osilators, alleys and off-axis TIR3'S. It looked amazing. Having a lightbar with just LED's isnt a bad thing, it just depends on where you are. In a city or suburban setting it isnt a bad thing because with the sheer amount of lightheads and power it will reflect off of everything and there isnt much of a way you would miss it. But it other settings with off axis and below grade views halogen and strobe may be the way to go, but you can still have that LED power and it will still compliment the rotators, in the delta's case.

SARGEEK

I hate when people like to show off their lights in the night - I always want to see how effective they are in the day time. Parked on the road on a bright sunny day after 2\" of fresh snow has fallen is about one of the worst conditions I can think of.

The other observation I found during a week of traveling - All red light bars can easily get lost in a sea of brake lights. Are LED's going to loose thier effectiveness in 5-10 years when most vehicles will have LED brake lights?

James Harrow · Banned user Joined: 28 Aug 2005 Posts: 275

SARGEEK---why would you need lights at the brightest part of the day??!?! That's what a white vehicle with the big words POLICE on it is for.

Lights (unless I'm totally off my rocker) are best needed at night for, hello, visibility!

Hugh A.

Believe it or not, when you are parked at the scene of an accident in broad daylight with your cruiser, with traffic at a stand still or flying by you, a white car with police on it isn't sufficient for warning people of your presence. Hence the term, \"warning light\".

I, too, feel that you need to see how a light performs in broad daylight prior to purchasing. If people don't see it, they aren't going to pull over either, right?

James Harrow · Banned user Joined: 28 Aug 2005 Posts: 275

yeah true Hugh...I guess I posted that without thinking (which I never do).

Colonel

[quote:9ca3a15b9a=\"James Harrow\"]SARGEEK---why would you need lights at the brightest part of the day??!?! That's what a white vehicle with the big words POLICE on it is for.

Lights (unless I'm totally off my rocker) are best needed at night for, hello, visibility!

Posted: Thu 17-Nov-2005 13:25 Post subject:

Okay Colonel, okay! You just made me cry over here. Happy now?

Posted: Thu 17-Nov-2005 13:49 Post subject: Re:

[quote:a58235db86=\"Colonel\"]James, what field of emergency services are you with?

Posted: Thu 17-Nov-2005 15:46 Post subject: personal experience

It is just my personal experience - the times I have come closest to being killed at an accident sceen has been on the mornings after a snow fall. The sun is out melting the recent snow fall, the main travel lanes are clear, but the shoulders and between lanes still are covered in snow and ice. Due to the snow melting, the drivers are also having to deal with splash back on the windshield. And for some reason the majority of motorists tend to run out of washer fluid. It also does not help when the responding vehicles are also covered in the road slime from responding. This is when I wish you could have whiteflash to the rear on apparatus as an option. I have not had to many people not see a piece of appartus on sceen at night - unless they are drunk, but that is another story.

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