I wonder why Whelen doesn't make...

James Harrow · Banned user Joined: 28 Aug 2005 Posts: 275

I wonder why Whelen doesn't make a lens for their TIR-3 that leaves the #2 LED totally unobstructed like on the 911EP Star?

That would leave a configuration of ||| O |||
where there is no fluted lens in the middle.

As we all know, with LEDs, it's all about the lens. If you have followed the evolution of the Star, like I did, you'll know that 911EP tried multiple configurations for their lens, which occurred in this order (per what I've seen):

Attempt #1

O O O

three separate holes, smooth lens over all holes
Result: extremely bright head-on, but the light totally disappeared off-axis

Attempt #2

O-O-O

three holes, but connected via the grooves (the '-' shown above were 2 grooves cut between the holes, presumably at an attempt to spread the light to the sides)

Result: didn't work much better than Attempt #1

Attempt #3 (current TIR-3 config)

||| ||| |||

three holes, fluted lenses over all holes, no more grooves between the holes

Result: Horray! Off-axis problem SOLVED!! BUT engineers noticed the Star immediately lost its once-amazing punch brightness to the front, head-on

Attempt #4 (and final, current configuration)

||| O |||

three holes, fluted lenses over #1 and #3 LED, #2 is left wide open as in Attempts #1 and #2.

This configuration which combined all previous attempts is what 911EP determined to be the most optimal.

As many of you know, I have owned and seen both the Star and TIR3. Both are great products. This posting has nothing to do with which product is \"better\" since IMO it's pointless to argue which brand is better.

I'm just saying that I'd love to see the TIR-3 with its #2 LED wide open as mentioned above. It would seem then that the field would be evened.

What do you guys think? Why didn't Whelen go this route?

CodeRed · Guest

I ow a pair of stars, and yes they are bright. But it seems to me that the tir3 is brighter....I am not sure I would like to do a side by side comparison in person, as videos dont do much for accurate comparisons. I like my stars, and am considering going to an all 911ep system. I am not sure however, as it seems whelen is more syncable..am I wrong about that. Also, I have yet to see a 911 product that is as bright as whelen linear series....

James Harrow · Banned user Joined: 28 Aug 2005 Posts: 275

EMT--thanks for the response. But, with all due respect, I wasn't asking which product is brighter (since that is subjective).

I also am not asking for a side-by-side comparison.

Again, if you think a certain brand is 'brighter' then fine. That would, by default, suggest that every other manufacturer just close shop and call it a day. Every brand has its strengths, weakness, etc.

I was pointing out the logic and evolution behind the various lens configurations of the Star and was asking why Whelen decided to go with an all fluted lens on the TIR-3...THATS IT.

Wink

CodeRed · Guest

sorry about that...wasnt tryin to stir or make any controversy. I know what you are you sayin, and its a good point. I am sure that whelen will do somthing lke 911 did with havin lenses that can be easily changed

James Harrow · Banned user Joined: 28 Aug 2005 Posts: 275

no problem EMT...I am just trying to prevent the normal topic deterioration on here after 3-4 responses (of which I contribute on occasion Laughing

).

If I don't try to keep the responses on-topic, it will only be a matter of time before ChopShopLights' car is posted in here again and someone gets called a whacker.

CodeRed · Guest

LMAO!!!!!!!

Colonel

TIR3s are already blinding as it is.. I dont know why they'd need to copy the 911ep lense and piss you off-- on top of loosing the overall effectiveness of one of three LEDs.

James Harrow · Banned user Joined: 28 Aug 2005 Posts: 275

Colonel, what the hell are you yapping about? I hope a TIR-3 blinds you then. Geez. Rolling Eyes

I won't even respond to your childish post. Next please?

Hugh A.

[quote:d875aff60e=\"Colonel\"]TIR3s are already blinding as it is.. I dont know why they'd need to copy the 911ep lense and piss you off-- on top of loosing the overall effectiveness of one of three LEDs.

Posted: Sun 13-Nov-2005 19:46 Post subject:

<sigh> I didn't ASK whether anyone thought they were 'perfect' or not. I asked what I THOUGHT was a legitimate question. OH well. Whelen copied the Star. That's obvious. I just wondered why they didn't copy the outer lens verbatim. Forget I asked. Let's get back to making fun of Tim D and watching LED videos, shall we?

Posted: Sun 13-Nov-2005 19:54 Post subject:

Your looking for an answer that cannot be answered. The best answer is, they tried and didn't like it. I have seen the TIR3 and the 911ep side by side, and the TIR3 seems to have a much greater throw of light and brightness. The 911's with funky optics seems to waste some light, depending on what kind of angles you are looking to use. There is no right/wrong definate answer unless someone who is on the design team comes up here and tells us.

Posted: Sun 13-Nov-2005 20:05 Post subject:

James The reason may well be copyright and patent infringement. While at the Harrisburg Fire Expo this past spring, the 911EP sales rep eluded to the fact that 911EP would be bringing suit against Whelen for patent infringements - he wouldn't say exactly which products they would be battling over, but it dealt with LED technology. So long as the other manufactures make subtle changes to their designs (ie not copying the lens fluting) they maintain that delicate balance between innovation and plagerism. I hope that was what you're looking for....or at least fodder for additional discussion..... Randy

Posted: Sun 13-Nov-2005 20:11 Post subject:

I remember the lawsuit being brought up this spring on the old board. I haven't heard anything else since. Wonder what's going on?

Posted: Sun 13-Nov-2005 20:19 Post subject:

That was me on the old board... started quite a discussion. I think they both have excellent products - we are using Liberties on our county ALS units and they work exceptionally well. I also have a couple blue 911EP Stars sitting in my parts drawer for install on something and I am equally impressed with their quality as well - 911ep was the first LED's i ever played with in fact, when one of out local PD's got a car with a TD28 in it The bar stopped working (unless you gave it a sound rap with a wrench in just the right spot) - they replaced it well over 2 years after it was bought with no questions asked. Randy

Posted: Sun 13-Nov-2005 20:27 Post subject:

I am not half as impressed with 911EP's products as I am with their warranty/repairs dept. As a tech, I have had a few customers hire me to work on their equipment, some of which was 911EP. After determining that the problem was something warranty oriented, 911EP was more than happy to take down my company info, then sent me whatever parts I thought I needed. No questions asked. Then, they offered to pay me for my labor. You probably wouldn't get that from most other manufacturers unless you worked for them.

Posted: Sun 13-Nov-2005 22:25 Post subject: Re:

[quote:943b0fa00b=\"Hugh A.\"]I am not half as impressed with 911EP's products as I am with their warranty/repairs dept. As a tech, I have had a few customers hire me to work on their equipment, some of which was 911EP. After determining that the problem was something warranty oriented, 911EP was more than happy to take down my company info, then sent me whatever parts I thought I needed. No questions asked. Then, they offered to pay me for my labor. You probably wouldn't get that from most other manufacturers unless you worked for them.

Posted: Mon 14-Nov-2005 07:28 Post subject: All about the optics?

Yes, the diodes are all from the same source ultimately. But it is dangerous to assume all manufacturers have equivalent electronic designs which maximize both light output and product life.

Posted: Mon 14-Nov-2005 07:55 Post subject:

Okay, I simply tried to \"say\" that IMO the TIR-3 would have been even more effective (and you could have loved it even more) had Whelen used the \|\|\| O \|\|\| config on the lens. That's it. That's really all that I was trying to ask. Whoever said that they 'waste' an LED in that config is totally mistaken if they can't understand the logic behind doing that.

Posted: Mon 14-Nov-2005 09:01 Post subject:

What I would like to see is (and someone already my have done this) is.... an LED module with the outer 2 diodes turned somewhat inward so that it increases the off axis brightness. Maybe not this angled but, angled somewhat. Quick and dirty diagram. The would probably work better with a five diode unit having three diodes facing straight and the outer ones angled off axis. Sorta like an inner edge is shaped but in a smaller TIR3 sized unit. Last edited by Pimpala03 on Mon 14-Nov-2005 11:02; edited 3 times in total

Posted: Mon 14-Nov-2005 09:12 Post subject:

that's actually a hell of a good idea! What do you think Pat/Hugh?

Posted: Mon 14-Nov-2005 10:24 Post subject:

I think some people here are just trying to make lights something that they are not. Some of you are trying to make directional lightheads into wideangle lightheads. That is NOT WHAT THEY ARE DESIGNED TO DO! If they were designed to do that, we would have them out there. I don't know how you can keep harping on this subject over and over. Lets stop beating this dead horse.

Posted: Mon 14-Nov-2005 10:34 Post subject:

no offense PJ, but what's it to ya? If you don't like my thread, please go elsewhere. Thanks.

Posted: Mon 14-Nov-2005 11:06 Post subject:

James, I added the photo. What cha think?

Posted: Mon 14-Nov-2005 11:10 Post subject:

Nah, its just that this same sorta thing comes up every week and gets old. Personally, I thought you were doing good with the first posts, but then when you went after Colonel...eh.

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