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Does your FD have an SOP or SOG for this?

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DaveCN5 Contributing Member Joined: 13 Jan 2007 Posts: 4240 Location: Fairfield County, CT	Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 10:04    Post subject: Does your FD have an SOP or SOG for this? We got toned out to a car fire yesterday and while en-route our Attack Engine was advised that the car was located inside a parking garage. Well our Engine standing at over 10' tall does not fit inside parking garages. The car was on the second floor. My department ended up humping hose all the way up there. By the time they got a hose charged, the fire had basically burned it's self out after fully engulfing and destroying the car despite the fact that the fire was just getting into the cabin upon our engine's arrival. Anyone have SOG's or SOP's for fires inside a parking garage that they would be willing to share? Dave
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grfd711 Moderator Joined: 16 May 2007 Posts: 3316 Location: Gravel Ridge, AR	Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 10:36    Post subject: Re: Does your FD have an SOP or SOG for this? [quote:3a100ddf98=\"DaveCN5\"]Anyone have SOG's or SOP's for fires inside a parking garage that they would be willing to share? Dave Nope, no SOG for that. You can make SOGs for certain things that are commonly found in our line of work, such as a house fire, MVC, car fire, blah, blah, blah. Can't have an SOG for every type of situation: \"Command to all personnel, we're enacting SOG 437,825: Hot dog cart on fire next to an LP tank\" As far as other factors affecting the situation, like the car being in a parking garage, it's up to the OIC to make educated decisions to affect the outcome of the situation. OIC decided to hump some hose. Unless a mini-pumper was close to the area, looks like he did what had to be done. So, by the time your operations got setup, the car burned up. Whoopdeedoo. Cars burn up all the time. Honestly, if a car has a decent fire in the engine compartment, it's shot to hell anyways and goes to scrap. What are we really saving? I wouldn't be too concerned with this one. Seems like this one will be one of those interesting stories you can \"one up\" somebody in a conversation in a bar: \"Oh yeah? Well we had a car fire in the 2nd story of a parking garage and had to hump the hose all the way up there.\"

Back to top    URL nwiamedic
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 10:38    Post subject:
Our downtown station covers 5 multi-level parking ramps . . . Just for that reason, they purchased a mini-pumper. They didn't get anything new... Its like an 80s-90s dodge something . . . There really were no other options, except as you notes, hauling hose forever only to find a pile of ashes when you finally got there. I will see if I can find a pic of the truck here.

Back to top    URL Doug (MD)
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 10:40    Post subject:
The latest round of highrise parking lots in the city (er, state) of Laurel has standpipes and connections which are no greater than 100' apart. However, several other options have been discussed for facilities which are not equipped with standpipe connections. One of these has been the use of a flying standpipe, in which an aerial (prepiped straight stick or tower) elevates the aerial to the fire floor and an engine company supplies the aerial just as they would with any other elevated master stream. From there, either a gated wye or supply line is placed on the master stream connection and attack line is run to the desired location. Another, simpler, alternative for lower level operations is to simply place a ground ladder to the fire floor and work from there. Hope this helps some.

Back to top    URL Doug (MD)
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 10:49    Post subject: Re: Does your FD have an SOP or SOG for this?
[quote:eb4f7b9275=\"grfd711\"]Cars burn up all the time. Honestly, if a car has a decent fire in the engine compartment, it's shot to hell anyways and goes to scrap. What are we really saving? I wouldn't be too concerned with this one.

I agree with you, that a car fire is, for the most part, one small step up from a nuisance fire - really not that big of a deal. However, in a populated parking garage, there is the potential for fire to spread to exposures, and that's where my concern would be. Granted, the insurance company will probably total it, but there's really no need to let the fire consume the car unnecessarily. If that were the case, why even call 9-1-1?

Furthermore, it's been said that if it's foreseeable, it's preventable. So, with that attitude in mind, taking steps to deal with the incident before it happens is not only commendable, but, in my mind, necessary. Back to top    URL dustymedic
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 10:55    Post subject:
I've heard of some downtown company officers here having the station car (usually a mid sized P/U truck) tag along, but I've never heard of anything offical.. Last edited by dustymedic on Fri 7-Nov-2008 10:59; edited 1 time in total

Back to top    URL mrhappy
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 11:21    Post subject:
Dry Riser? I know most car parks around here have just as many dry risers as blocks of apartments have. Failing that as we use HP Hosereels on the majority of car fires (I think I read somewhere over 80% are fought with HRs) that will probably be easier to run up the stairs with.

Back to top    URL stfd717
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 12:06    Post subject:
While I don't think it needs to have a SOP/GO/Policy for it, I'd think that a high-rise pack (or similar) would work. Hump the pack upstairs, use the ladder idea if possible, and drop your supply line to the pumper. Not sure how quick it would be, but it beats trying to squeeze a million $$$ pumper into a garage or spec for a specialty pumper for just that purpose. Outside of that, I know depts. in my area will call for a brush truck for the garage area supported by the first due pumper. C.

Back to top    URL DaveCN5
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 12:13    Post subject:
See our problem was that was the first car fire that we've ever responded to inside a parking garage. Our town was mostly rural, but it rapidly growing and becoming more commercial. I think we're talking about sending out our brush truck first due for fires in parking garages. It has a 350gpm pump and 250 gallons. It would then be followed by a tanker for water supply and then our ladder for ventilation and misc. tools.

Back to top    URL LFD-Mike
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 12:49    Post subject:
We have no parking garages, but if we did... Once we got the report I would have someone who did not make the engine get the Ranger we use for brush fires out the door and on its way

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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 13:42    Post subject:

Back to top    URL Bonanno
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 13:51    Post subject:
We have standpipes in the parking garage we have at the hospital. We take our high rise packs (1 with 2 1/2\" to a gated Y, 1 with 1 3/4 and tips). Hook up to the standpipe, flow water car out. We are looking into some type of small vehicle that may fit in their though, probably get the hospital to purchase it.

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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 17:47    Post subject:
I'm gonna just throw this one out there... picturing your run and all... Since the area is tight on space, how much fire laod did you end up with- I mean was it a really hot fire? All that heat goes up, and right above that burning car is the roof, which just so happens to also be the floor of the next level.... Did they survey the concrete and other structural components to insure they were safe?

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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 17:47    Post subject:
I'm gonna just throw this one out there... picturing your run and all... Since the area is tight on space, how much fire laod did you end up with- I mean was it a really hot fire? All that heat goes up, and right above that burning car is the roof, which just so happens to also be the floor of the next level.... Did they survey the concrete and other structural components to insure they were safe?

Back to top    URL dynastar666
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 17:54    Post subject: Re:
[quote:cb6d0def31=\"Ben E.\"]

\"Standard Operating Guideline\", however lawyers are now having departments shy away from using \"Standard\" because it has some negative implications when brought before the judge/court room or something along those lines. Back to top    URL grfd711
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 18:13    Post subject: Re: Does your FD have an SOP or SOG for this?
[quote:ab732337ef=\"Doug (MD)\"][quote:ab732337ef=\"grfd711\"]Cars burn up all the time. Honestly, if a car has a decent fire in the engine compartment, it's shot to hell anyways and goes to scrap. What are we really saving? I wouldn't be too concerned with this one.

I agree with you, that a car fire is, for the most part, one small step up from a nuisance fire - really not that big of a deal. However, in a populated parking garage, there is the potential for fire to spread to exposures, and that's where my concern would be. Granted, the insurance company will probably total it, but there's really no need to let the fire consume the car unnecessarily. If that were the case, why even call 9-1-1?

Furthermore, it's been said that if it's foreseeable, it's preventable. So, with that attitude in mind, taking steps to deal with the incident before it happens is not only commendable, but, in my mind, necessary.

Quote:

However, in a populated parking garage, there is the potential for fire to spread to exposures, and that's where my concern would be.

Sure, if it's parked next to other cars. If nothing's next to it, let's not get in a hurry for scorched concrete.

Quote:

but there's really no need to let the fire consume the car unnecessarily.

I never said just to let the thing burn, but I wouldn't have my crew rushing and increasing the chance of mishaps. As said before, provided we don't need to get in a hurry. If there's exposures, sure, we'd prefer to save those.

Quote:

Furthermore, it's been said that if it's foreseeable, it's preventable. So, with that attitude in mind, taking steps to deal with the incident before it happens is not only commendable, but, in my mind, necessary.

Here's a simple response to this: pre-plans. If the building is a parking garage, plans can be made ahead of time involving situations like these. Now, Dave has stated the buildings are fairly new, so perhaps the dept. hasn't had the opportunity to do one. Now they've got an idea that may prevent all the \"hose humping\", they can consider the aerial idea, as his dept. has an aerial (nobody's backed it into another wall, have they, Dave?) and also the brush truck idea (no drunks taken it for a joy ride?).

With the ribbing aside Dave, how are things going on your dept. now? I remember you having some issues with the chief in the past and those issues involving the brush & aerial. Back to top    URL ryanm
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 18:29    Post subject: Re: Does your FD have an SOP or SOG for this?
[quote:dac5d2e2b4=\"grfd711\"] \"Command to all personnel, we're enacting SOG 437,825: Hot dog cart on fire next to an LP tank\"

That's Hwy 107 for you! Back to top    URL grfd711
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 19:10    Post subject: Re: Does your FD have an SOP or SOG for this?
[quote:ef0482f449=\"ryanm\"][quote:ef0482f449=\"grfd711\"] \"Command to all personnel, we're enacting SOG 437,825: Hot dog cart on fire next to an LP tank\"

That's Hwy 107 for you!
Oh, I could tell you some stories of some stuff down near my neck of the woods. Freakin' hilarious! Back to top    URL Ben E.
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 19:25    Post subject: Re:
[quote:eaf32fa8f4=\"dynastar666\"] \"Standard Operating Guideline\", however lawyers are now having departments shy away from using \"Standard\" because it has some negative implications when brought before the judge/court room or something along those lines.

I'm well aware. It was a joke. Back to top    URL microman
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 19:32    Post subject:
We actually had a summer training exercise on just this type of incident. We used the old hospitals' 4 story parking garage. The best way we came up with (we don't have any small rigs) was to connect to the FDC and send a crew up with a high-rise pack and hook a stand pipe. Funny that someone mentioned using booster reels on 80% of car fires. We actually do have an SOP that states we are NOT allowed to use booster reels on car fires. Go figure.

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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 19:37    Post subject: Re:
[quote:51557b4250=\"microman\"] Funny that someone mentioned using booster reels on 80% of car fires. We actually do have an SOP that states we are NOT allowed to use booster reels on car fires. Go figure.

Nobody even has booster reels around here except for grass trucks and one dept used to have one on their ladder. (it was a 15-20 foot line used to clean tools and re-wet contents of debris bags) Back to top    URL ryanm
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 19:56    Post subject: Re: Does your FD have an SOP or SOG for this?
[quote:b45aac8f53=\"grfd711\"]Oh, I could tell you some stories of some stuff down near my neck of the woods. Freakin' hilarious!

We still need to meet up sometime! Back to top    URL NPS Ranger
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 21:50    Post subject:
[quote:488e18753b=\"grfd711\"]Here's a simple response to this: pre-plans. If the building is a parking garage, plans can be made ahead of time involving situations like these.

You beat me to it. Another option common in parking garages is a wheeled dry chem extinguisher on each level, for initial knockdown at least till you can stretch from a stairwell or a ladder. A lot cheaper than a mini-pumper.

[quote:488e18753b=\"microman\"]Funny that someone mentioned using booster reels on 80% of car fires. We actually do have an SOP that states we are NOT allowed to use booster reels on car fires. Go figure.

With the use of E85 becoming more common, just to name one factor, anyone who thinks it's still OK to use a booster line on a car fire is living in 1965 and waiting for something bad to happen. Back to top    URL DaveCN5
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 22:01    Post subject:
The parking garage was old with no stand pipe and no sprinklers, but we have 2 more underground parking structures planned. Ken, The Quint is fixed and it wasn't the brush truck that was stolen, it was our Forest Rescue Vehicle. But that has been fixed and the person who took it paid for the damages. As for the Chief and I. We're better, but he's stiffing me now on getting my Q License (fire truck operator License) I missed the test because I was on vacation and now he won't sign me up for one, which is annoying, but eh. What ever.

Back to top    URL grfd711
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Posted: Fri 7-Nov-2008 23:21    Post subject:
Glad to hear things improved.

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