Thread: Blue to the rear - a question?

I tried to search, so if this has been discussed, my bad.

There seems to be a trend of fire agencies going with blue lights to the rear. In theory it seems to make sense as red and amber are already all over the place, especially at night. My question is, is this this trend based on an idea, just to be different, or has there been any actual testing or science put to it?

Can the claim be backed up? If so, anyone have a link?

Originally Posted by WS224

I tried to search, so if this has been discussed, my bad.

There seems to be a trend of fire agencies going with blue lights to the rear. In theory it seems to make sense as red and amber are already all over the place, especially at night. My question is, is this this trend based on an idea, just to be different, or has there been any actual testing or science put to it?

Can the claim be backed up? If so, anyone have a link?

I haven't seen an article on it but my lieutenant said that red and amber attract people's attention therefore possibly making them drive towards the light when blue repells peoples attention. Just what I've been hearing. I must say it is a nice touch though

There was a HUGE study done on out a couple years back. I'm on my phone now but will search for out tomorrow if someone doesn't beat me to it!

*Edit: All links I found to the 2004 Florida Highway Patrol Lighting Study are either dead links, or archived and you need to pay, or subscribe for the full article, but many references are made in these forums and other articles, just search the terms above.

Here is one such study. Conclusions on page 30 and beyond are some references to other similar studies.

http://www.sae.org/standardsdev/tsb/...nblighting.pdf

Kinda depends on your location/trends...

In NY the law was changed to allow blue to the rear for just about everybody, and everyone decided to take advantage of it.
In MA, pd is all blue, fd is all red but the law allows red or blue as the case may be to be displayed to the rear

Few other examples around, but everyone sees the forbidden fruit color and jumps on the chance to use it.

Now, in short, blue is usually better to see at night, red during the day, and amber all the way around. The last trend/study I have seen recommended amber/red in the rear. The drunks tend to remember amber and red = caution/danger (ie workzones) and blue was like a bug (drunk) zapper.

I remember way back when (pre DSL days) that a certain warning manufactuer wouldn't help defend rear end MVA cases involving police vehicles that on the rear was blue/red vs red/blue. The thought at the time was above... they found that in one state that does blue/red they had more accidents vs states that did traditional red/blue. At least that was the story I got at the time. This was about the time that rear halogen flashers in amber became more popular in strobe bars.

Originally Posted by MESDA6

Here is one such study. Conclusions on page 30 and beyond are some references to other similar studies.

http://www.sae.org/standardsdev/tsb/...nblighting.pdf

Thanks. I found some stuff on the US Fire Administrations page as well.

Originally Posted by Zapp Brannigan

There was a HUGE study done on out a couple years back. I'm on my phone now but will search for out tomorrow if someone doesn't beat me to it!

*Edit: All links I found to the 2004 Florida Highway Patrol Lighting Study are either dead links, or archived and you need to pay, or subscribe for the full article, but many references are made in these forums and other articles, just search the terms above.

THe Florida highway patrol uses light bars that change colors during the day they are red at night they are blue and if running code they are red and blue. In addition they use several amber lightsticks in the rear window.

If as much attention were paid to setup and pattern as is paid to color...... color would become irrelevant... I'll take any color set up properly over the scientifically most effective color executed poorly. I think people put blue on the rear of fire apparatus because it is a trend that started as a scientific study. I find it funny that NY decided it's that using blue is a huge safety issue but vollies running around without sirens isn't. Blue may be slightly more effective under some conditions to the rear, especially when numerous taillights are present. As to why it you see so much of it.... that has a lot to do with everyone else doing it, and it being newly allowed. It's too bad because someone spent some time lobbying for this, and that energy could have been better spent getting rid of courtesy lights.

Originally Posted by JohnMarcson

If as much attention were paid to setup and pattern as is paid to color...... color would become irrelevant... I'll take any color set up properly over the scientifically most effective color executed poorly. I think people put blue on the rear of fire apparatus because it is a trend that started as a scientific study. I find it funny that NY decided it's that using blue is a huge safety issue but vollies running around without sirens isn't. Blue may be slightly more effective under some conditions to the rear, especially when numerous taillights are present. As to why it you see so much of it.... that has a lot to do with everyone else doing it, and it being newly allowed. It's too bad because someone spent some time lobbying for this, and that energy could have been better spent getting rid of courtesy lights.

You may or may not be correct. The study that I have that was supported by the IAFF, ICHIEFS, FEMA, and others puts emphasis on color and pattern.

Additional request for whoever is playing along:

Chime in with the States that you are aware of that allow the use of blue lights on fire apparatus in any position. I am aware of Alaska, Nevada, Missouri, New York, New Jersey, and Louisiana.

Originally Posted by JohnMarcson

If as much attention were paid to setup and pattern as is paid to color...... color would become irrelevant... I'll take any color set up properly over the scientifically most effective color executed poorly. I think people put blue on the rear of fire apparatus because it is a trend that started as a scientific study. I find it funny that NY decided it's that using blue is a huge safety issue but vollies running around without sirens isn't. Blue may be slightly more effective under some conditions to the rear, especially when numerous taillights are present. As to why it you see so much of it.... that has a lot to do with everyone else doing it, and it being newly allowed. It's too bad because someone spent some time lobbying for this, and that energy could have been better spent getting rid of courtesy lights.

And just for fun John, why are yo so concerned with what volunteers in New York State can or can't do? Your still in OHIO.....right?

Originally Posted by WS224

And just for fun John, why are yo so concerned with what volunteers in New York State can or can't do? Your still in OHIO.....right?

I was using NY as an example..... so I care to the end that it helps prove my point..... that color is of less concern when there are much more serious issues at hand. I was contrasting a relatively trivial factor to a majorly dangerous one...and how one got all sorts of attention and the other didn't. This thread is about blue on fire vehicles in states where blue has not previously been used for this. NY is a great example. Again, I care because it is the best example of my point......people obsessing about color when there are other much more serious issues to be addressed.

Originally Posted by WS224

You may or may not be correct. The study that I have that was supported by the IAFF, ICHIEFS, FEMA, and others puts emphasis on color and pattern.

Additional request for whoever is playing along:

Chime in with the States that you are aware of that allow the use of blue lights on fire apparatus in any position. I am aware of Alaska, Nevada, Missouri, New York, New Jersey, and Louisiana.

Color is obviously one factor.... that's not my point. My point is that color means nothing when pattern isn't properly addressed. If you need to focus on one thing, adding a color is the least important. Lack of a siren is a major safety issue. Poor patterns turn $2k setups into a twinkling blur. Color is certainly a factor, it's just sad/funny to watch a state that lets people run around with 2 blue or green lights and no siren put so much emphasis on adding one color.

Running "partial code" with no siren = dangerous
Split flash with muti-color blur = dangerous, ineffective
Using only red on fire vehicles = one factor in a setup

or....

"bad" color, "good" pattern = usable
"Good" color, "bad" pattern = unusable

or....

3 or 4 colors mean nothing with poor setup..... but good setup with one color (even if not ideal) is usable.

Originally Posted by JohnMarcson

I was using NY as an example..... so I care to the end that it helps prove my point..... that color is of less concern when there are much more serious issues at hand. I was contrasting a relatively trivial factor to a majorly dangerous one...and how one got all sorts of attention and the other didn't. This thread is about blue on fire vehicles in states where blue has not previously been used for this. NY is a great example. Again, I care because it is the best example of my point......people obsessing about color when there are other much more serious issues to be addressed.

In fairness John, I misread what you wrote. I thought in your earlier post your point was that volunteers should not be using courtesy lights nor sirens. After re-reading, I guess your point is that courtesy lights alone are not as good as authorized lights along with siren. If that is the case, we are on the same page.

Originally Posted by JohnMarcson

Color is obviously one factor.... that's not my point. My point is that color means nothing when pattern isn't properly addressed. If you need to focus on one thing, adding a color is the least important. Lack of a siren is a major safety issue. Poor patterns turn $2k setups into a twinkling blur. Color is certainly a factor, it's just sad/funny to watch a state that lets people run around with 2 blue or green lights and no siren put so much emphasis on adding one color.

Running "partial code" with no siren = dangerous
Split flash with muti-color blur = dangerous, ineffective
Using only red on fire vehicles = one factor in a setup

or....

"bad" color, "good" pattern = usable
"Good" color, "bad" pattern = unusable

or....

3 or 4 colors mean nothing with poor setup..... but good setup with one color (even if not ideal) is usable.

Yes, I agree.

What does Ohio do? Blue allowed anywhere on fire apparatus? It may not be a big issue in some places, but traditionally in the south, blue is for law enforcement only.

Just a tidbit... Wisconsin allows Opticoms to be any color on any vehicle authorized to use them. Wisconsin cops are known to protect the blue light law for law enforcement only. I keep telling the police chief that we're changing our Opticoms to blue. Gets him all fired up.

Ok, as far as the vollies, its all location and what the local people know. I've been on rurual departments and had no issue running lights and getting the ROW. Its always been that way, thats what the local people know. Lights=move.

Suburban departments, it will depend. It also depends on how the department officers train the guys about lights and state laws. The biggest problem is sitting at a traffic light looking like a dumbass and members filling the urge to go, and then the driving public confused if they should move, go or stay stopped in front of you. There are quite a few vol depts in subs that just no longer allow the use due to this.

Colors? Well, I've seen the study's and have talked to some people involved in them. For the most part, its all subjective with some science. The main reason: the human brain. Every John Q Public will see and inturpurt the colors, meaning, reaction time, how they are perceived, etc. I don't recall anyone taking into account color blindness either, but not that i have read the cover to cover.

Incadasant, halogen, strobe, LED - then how often they flash and how they flash, how bright they flash... each method has its up and downs.

The debate and research will go on every day until someone has a portable laser that will vaporize the non-yielding car ahead of them.

The only thing I can say, is that I have switched to California steady to the front and single flash patterns or slow patterns for the most part and seems to work very well.

seeing how ct has been a free for all for years. i must say that blue works great at night around here. we have some hilly/windy highway RT 9/RT2 coming down the road you can see the blue before the red at night any day

I've always been intrigued by this topic. As far as the reason why NY implemented blue to the rear, I believe I can enlighten on that topic. However, don't quote me on anything haha.

It all started back in 2005 - 2006 (ish) with a fellow member of my volunteer fire department, who is also a NYS trooper. At the time, he was assigned mostly to patrol the highways, and had a slick top crown vic. Just as anyone of us, he had a little whacker in him and enjoyed lighting up his vehicles. At the time, he had just purchased a new pick-up truck and had yet to install his blue lights for volunteer purposes. So, he decided to install his blue single talon in the center of his rear windshield. After installation and use, there was a definite increase in the ability to see his vehicle from a distance at night. The contrast of the blue light (just a single talon) facing rear was HUGE!...

Anyway, a few months passed, and a volunteer from a neighboring FD had noticed that my friend had a blue light installed in his SP car. Well, at the current time, NY state law read that BLUE was strictly a volunteer firefighter's color. Naturally, this certain volunteer (the kind who b**** about everything) complained and wrote a letter to the SP troop sergant complaining about this officer and demanded that he remove the blue light from his SP car. My friend was instructed by his sergant to remove the blue light, due to a confliction of state law.

Well, this didn't make my friend very happy. During the time he had used blue light to the rear, he had noticed a vast improvement in the ability of people being about to see his car. From that point, he ended up writing a letter to the SP headquarters (some of the higher ups) requesting to use a rear facing blue light because of the increased visibilty and safety aspects. I think it was about 6 or 12 months later, NYS passed the law which allowed emergency vehicles to run blue to the rear.

I can't say this is the exact reason why NY switched, however I think it is an intersting tid bit.

On a side note, I believe there is currently a law in the midsts which is going to have NY law vehicles change to a red/blue combo.

Personally, I agree with some of the things that have been said above. I don't understand why NY allows blue lights for POV but no sirens. Why not allow the audible safety? What's the difference in having a volunteer drive to the station with red lights and siren, and jumping in a piece to run red lights and siren to the scene? By responding to the station, aren't they responding to the call?

I'd like to see NY go with the following (front facing lights):

Police: Red/blue
Fire: Red/white
Vollys: red w/siren

So let me throw this wrench into the mix...

Who is willing to incorporate and articulate the needs of safety colors to the front and/or rear (the blue light on fire vehicles arguement) vs the color identification of emergency vehicles?

By the blue light statements, everyone should be running red/white/blue/amber, yet most of the same people favor red/blue for law enforcement and red-red/white for fire/volunteers.

So, where do you draw the line as one would effect the other..

Originally Posted by PJH

So let me throw this wrench into the mix...

Who is willing to incorporate and articulate the needs of safety colors to the front and/or rear (the blue light on fire vehicles arguement) vs the color identification of emergency vehicles?

By the blue light statements, everyone should be running red/white/blue/amber, yet most of the same people favor red/blue for law enforcement and red-red/white for fire/volunteers.

So, where do you draw the line as one would effect the other..

PJH,

I like your point, and I believe I left my previous comment a little shortended.

Truely from an "identification" standpoint (front facing lightheads), I support police with any combination of red/blue and fire (including vollys) with any combination of red/white.

However, from a "functionality" and "safety" standpoint, I agree with the point I believe you are trying to make. EVERYONE should be utilizing a combination of red/white/blue/amber, front & rear facing.

If I had to defer to one or the other, I would choose the functionality and safety option.

I'd like to throw an even bigger wrench in the mix. On a two way highway, I've seen fire companies when arriving on an accident scene pull past the vehicle. Thus, the "front" of the apparatus now becomes "rear" facing to the oncoming traffic. If the intent of the blue light to the "rear" was to provide increased visibility and better safety, shouldn't the "front" of the vehicle have blue lights as well?

In addition, I've also seen departments where members of the fire police respond directly to the scene in their personal vehicles. On the scene, they utilize their personal vehicles to assist in directing traffic. Wouldn't it make sense that these vehicles be properly outfitted with the correct emergency lighting?

Going back to your point, I believe every emergency vehicle should utilize a combination of red/blue/white/amber 360 degrees on the vehicle. With white lights shutting off when the vehicle is in park.