Thread: Courtesy Lights

After this thread: National Light Law Bad Idea/Warning Light Colors

I'm curious to start a discussion about courtesy lights ... here goes nothing

I will share my opinion later on (it has changed over the years).

Also, "all/most volunteers" referrers to line volunteers (excluding officers & chiefs)

-Jared

It's really hard to say that ALL vollies should have lights, or none should - different areas have different needs. What works in a small town may well not work in a city.

Multiple FDs in our county. Some chiefs allow lights and sirens, some don't. Some only allow them for officers and EMTs. Some used to allow them for all members, but got too many complaints from the public about reckless driving.

No consistency at all.

It's a new week, so here's a stupid question for this one, can someone explain what "courtesy lights" are?

Originally Posted by rlsllc

It's a new week, so here's a stupid question for this one, can someone explain what "courtesy lights" are?

A courtesy light is plainly this: A light that REQUESTS the right of way from normal traffic for a designated person, but does not necessarily require the right of way be yielded from normal traffic. Essentially, people aren't required to move.

it really depends on locality and tradition. I live in a suburb of schenectady ny with a decent but densly packed population, my fire dept is a combined paid and voluntter dept with 15 paid ff paramedics and aprox 20 active volunteers. We really dont use lights due to the fact that there will always be three people at the station who will drive and we go to the scene. However, my ex gf lived in wilton ny (saratoga area) and they all had elaborte blue light set ups beecasue of the size of their district and local tradition.

Originally Posted by rlsllc

It's a new week, so here's a stupid question for this one, can someone explain what "courtesy lights" are?

It also does not give you the right to break any traffic laws (speeding, running red lights, stop signs, etc) or pull anyone over.

Wiki has a poorly written article on the subject: Courtesy lights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

-Jared

Why should a fire truck, ambulance, or police car have emergency lights?

A first responder is a first responder, it doesn't matter if they are responding to the station in a POV to pick up a rig or already in a department issued vehicle.

Courtesy light laws are fucking stupid and are a kick in the nuts for someone who puts in a few hundred hours of training and their life on the line for nothing.

Originally Posted by Doug

It's really hard to say that ALL vollies should have lights, or none should - different areas have different needs. What works in a small town may well not work in a city.

I agree its hard to have a black and white rule on this. I retired from a City Fd that had no use of Emergency equipment policy for both fulltime and auxiliary members. The area's outside the corporation limit was served by a Volunteer Dept who ran lights and sirens. Dont ever recall any major problems with them running code to the station or a call. But every situation is different what works for one might not for another. Its all about a quicker safe response.

Thanks for the explanations!

Is Ohio a courtesy light state? Based on your explanations, I'm guessing not due to the vollys with sirens and full size light bars around here.

The real answer... It depends. Every department is different.

Originally Posted by rlsllc

Thanks for the explanations!

Is Ohio a courtesy light state? Based on your explanations, I'm guessing not due to the vollys with sirens and full size light bars around here.

No, Ohio is a full lights and siren state. Different departments have individual rules though.

I have mixed feeling about this. I have and do volunteer in a state with courtesy lights (Ct and NY) and have been in a red light and siren state (VT).

Sadly,I've seen abuse of both.Around here people are pretty good about letting us blue lighters go by but I still feel retarded sitting at a red light, all two that we have here LOL, with my blue lights on, generally I shut them off.Being one of the few really active and experienced EMTs in the dept as well as a pump operator I'd like to be able to run red, but that's up to my chief.There are a lot of people in the area that should never have them.Yes I have a lot of courtesy on my cars, call me a whacker but I never blow off a call and I don't drive mach2 to the station or scene throwing a hissy fit when someone doesn't pull over.

I think the question should be whether or not the chief should be able to issue red light permits to more key people who are not fire officers in courtesy light states.

Originally Posted by rsmartin

.

I think the question should be whether or not the chief should be able to issue red light permits to more key people who are not fire officers in courtesy light states.

I COMPLETLY agree with this! If a volunteer ambulace squad can desiginate a part 800 compliant vehicle then shouldnt a fire dept that runs medical and has ambulances be able to do the same? And it would make sense for a chief to be able to give aperatus drivers the ability to run reds and a siren to get to the station for the trucks IF they allow members to go to the scene

I'll answer both the question and what I think you are asking like this......

As many have said, a broad statement covering ALL volunteers in a single department and/or ALL departments is impossible to answer or at least it should be. Sadly there are narrow minded people that honestly believe that national light laws make sense, but there are to many needs and variables from department t department. Hell, it should be obvious - they are not even all aid or all volunteer for a reason.

That said, I think courtesy lights laws are stupid. If the State or agency recognizes the fact that time is a determining fact in emergency responses then full use of emergency lights and sirens should be authorized.

Consider it this way - why do States tha only allow volunteers or call back staffing to use courtesy lights to use more than that on fire apparatus?

Originally Posted by rlsllc

Thanks for the explanations!

Is Ohio a courtesy light state? Based on your explanations, I'm guessing not due to the vollys with sirens and full size light bars around here.

No, it's actually unlawful in Ohio to use a light without a siren, and you incur a lot of liability if you are in a crash running only a light.

A lot of guys do it anyway. Those guys, and their departments, are fucking retarded.

To be truly "legal" in Ohio, you need a siren, front warning in red or red/clear, and a state inspection sticker.

...for the great info.

I have only used what I now know is a "courtesy" light (amber) during utility construction while stationary, and when moving on a road way as an escort for equipment (at walking speed). No asking for right of way or running red lights, just trying to keep things safe.

I agree with many here that it is too broad to put a solid rule in place, and that it should be determined from area to area what is needed.

I do feel, however, that courtesy lights should be for (amber*) tow trucks, utility trucks, etc; first responders should be treated as emergency vehicles IF it is warranted and approved by someone that will hold the bag if there is abuse, like a cheif of somethng.

*They could use other colors, I'm just used to amber on these vehicles.

I could be talking out of my ass though, seeing that an hour ago I wasn't sure what a courtesy light was by definition.


edited for clarity

Okay, a few more thought provoking questions:

While we can agree that a national law is too broad, is a state law too broad as well?

Which has more potential for abuse, POVs with Courtesy Lights or POVs with full lights & siren?

Should Fire and EMS be treated differently?

-Jared

Originally Posted by Jared @ 911Lights

While we can agree that a national law is too broad, is a state law too broad as well?

Yes. As someone else mentioned, it may make sense to outfit volunteers in a rural setting with lights (either courtesy lights or make them actual emergency vehicles with lights + siren) whereas in a city it probably does not make sense. In NY we have some large cities, yet we also have some areas with very low populations but huge fire districts. Each of those settings will have different needs.

I think that it should be decided at either a department or county level, with some general ruling at the state level. i.e. NYS may say in order to be considered an 'emergency vehicle,' a vehicle must have 360 degree visible red lights and a siren, and then either the county or each department can determine whether it wants to outfit some or all of its members (or, more likely, allow them to outfit themselves).

Originally Posted by Jared @ 911Lights

Okay, a few more thought provoking questions:

While we can agree that a national law is too broad, is a state law too broad as well?

Which has more potential for abuse, POVs with Courtesy Lights or POVs with full lights & siren?

Should Fire and EMS be treated differently?

-Jared

The thing is Jared, this is kinda what is wrong with everything. If your worried about abuse, deal with the abusers NOT a blanket policy covering a country, a state, or even an entire single department.

I'm mixed on this one as well. I think courtesy light laws are stupid and confusing to the public. I live in NY and have used a blue courtesy as a volunteer FF and a green courtesy with volunteer EMS. The majority of the time I never even put the light up. I now use red lights and siren as an EMT/Chief and my car is fully DOH certified. Green should be reserved for Incident Command, blue (red/blue) for LEOs and red for fire. BUT, there is no reason to run code to a frigin pump out...they should have a priority system in place based upon the information received. Training and RESPONSIBILITY (DUE REGARD) is also key. I've responded to hot calls as an LEO and have watched fellow workers blow through intersections against a red just because their siren was going.

Just last week I was driving home from work in an unmarked car. Some car comes flying up behind me (and I was going at a pretty good clip) and then rides my ass. Not wanting to be bothered after a 12 hr day, I decide to turn off the main road. He follows me, still riding my ass and then passes me on a double yellow. So I throw my lights on just as he pulls into the FD parking lot and I notice one of the bay doors is opening. I get out of the car the same time as him and he goes running to the truck yelling structure fire. Needless to say I called dispatch, had them advise the Fire Chief when he cleared to call me and we took it from there with that member. If I was in my POV and had my family in the car I probably would have ripped him right off the truck. Was he 18...no....45 years old....and a line officer. No light on, nothing and driving. Again, training and responsibility.

I am preplexed on this issue. MN I guess allows a one non-flashing light to the front, but does not allow anything else while in motion for vollies. I say I guess because while the law is on the books, I have never seen a permit issues by the state for this.
Some of you say that it makes sense for more rural areas, and to me I say it doesn't. Be defenition in a rural area you are going to have less traffic and less traffic control devices so why run code at all in your POV?
I know a fire marshall, he is assigned a take home squad, fully marked, emergency vehicle by state law. He has no supervisory or command authority other then that he is the cities fire marshal working 40 hours a week. He is also a member of the vollunteer fire dept. During the work week if a call comes in he runs code 3 to the call in his vehicle. If he is at home and is responding to the station he DOES NOT drive code 3 as he does not want to conflict with the emergency vehicles that are headed out to the call when he is headed in to the station to make the rig.

So now back to the vollies in the bigger cities, if you are running code 3 in your pov and you wreck who pays? ( I don't know we don't have this in MN) As first responders one of the biggest areas of liability is in driving the emergency vehicles. We had a fatality a number of years ago in a city that operated both a vollunteer fire dept and a vollunteer rescue squad. One of the rescue squad members blew a light and killed a couple. That was the end of the rescue squad. The city shuddered them and contracted with a ambulance service. Heck I was going to buy a throw light for when my vehicle was stopped but chose not to to elminate liablity.

I understand response times, and the that lives can be lost as we are waiting for the rigs, but I come down on its either one or the othe, either you can run code 3 or you can't. This playing in the muiddle sounds like a good way to loose a lot.

Originally Posted by EMSChief1

Just last week I was driving home from work in an unmarked car. Some car comes flying up behind me (and I was going at a pretty good clip) and then rides my ass. Not wanting to be bothered after a 12 hr day, I decide to turn off the main road. He follows me, still riding my ass and then passes me on a double yellow. So I throw my lights on just as he pulls into the FD parking lot and I notice one of the bay doors is opening. I get out of the car the same time as him and he goes running to the truck yelling structure fire. Needless to say I called dispatch, had them advise the Fire Chief when he cleared to call me and we took it from there with that member. If I was in my POV and had my family in the car I probably would have ripped him right off the truck. Was he 18...no....45 years old....and a line officer. No light on, nothing and driving. Again, training and responsibility.

Ohh wow...yeah same here if my kids werein the car...yeah pal you ain't making this run....

Originally Posted by squad511

I am preplexed on this issue. MN I guess allows a one non-flashing light to the front, but does not allow anything else while in motion for vollies. I say I guess because while the law is on the books, I have never seen a permit issues by the state for this.
Some of you say that it makes sense for more rural areas, and to me I say it doesn't. Be defenition in a rural area you are going to have less traffic and less traffic control devices so why run code at all in your POV?
I know a fire marshall, he is assigned a take home squad, fully marked, emergency vehicle by state law. He has no supervisory or command authority other then that he is the cities fire marshal working 40 hours a week. He is also a member of the vollunteer fire dept. During the work week if a call comes in he runs code 3 to the call in his vehicle. If he is at home and is responding to the station he DOES NOT drive code 3 as he does not want to conflict with the emergency vehicles that are headed out to the call when he is headed in to the station to make the rig.

So now back to the vollies in the bigger cities, if you are running code 3 in your pov and you wreck who pays? ( I don't know we don't have this in MN) As first responders one of the biggest areas of liability is in driving the emergency vehicles. We had a fatality a number of years ago in a city that operated both a vollunteer fire dept and a vollunteer rescue squad. One of the rescue squad members blew a light and killed a couple. That was the end of the rescue squad. The city shuddered them and contracted with a ambulance service. Heck I was going to buy a throw light for when my vehicle was stopped but chose not to to elminate liablity.

I understand response times, and the that lives can be lost as we are waiting for the rigs, but I come down on its either one or the othe, either you can run code 3 or you can't. This playing in the muiddle sounds like a good way to loose a lot.

I live in a rural area (Kentucky) and here, lights/siren are very helpful in passing people on the narrow, high speed roads we have. Our back roads are 55mph, but only two lanes with no breakdown. There is no way to legally, and more importantly, SAFELY pass a vehicle on most of those roads without the passee actively helping.

Liability is ALWAYS on the driver; you run lights, ANY accident, even if caused by someone else, is your fault. Of course they can always sue the department as well, but the volunteer will shoulder almost all of the liability. They have insurance for this sort of thing.... we don't.

Originally Posted by squad511

Ohh wow...yeah same here if my kids werein the car...yeah pal you ain't making this run....

So if your kids were in the car then you would accost the guy and make it so he "couldn't go on the run"?

Originally Posted by rlsllc

...for the great info.

I have only used what I now know is a "courtesy" light (amber) during utility construction while stationary, and when moving on a road way as an escort for equipment (at walking speed). No asking for right of way or running red lights, just trying to keep things safe.

I agree with many here that it is too broad to put a solid rule in place, and that it should be determined from area to area what is needed.

I do feel, however, that courtesy lights should be for (amber*) tow trucks, utility trucks, etc; first responders should be treated as emergency vehicles IF it is warranted and approved by someone that will hold the bag if there is abuse, like a cheif of somethng.

*They could use other colors, I'm just used to amber on these vehicles.

I could be talking out of my ass though, seeing that an hour ago I wasn't sure what a courtesy light was by definition.


edited for clarity

An amber light is not a courtesy light nor would anyone responding to an incident as a FF or EMT be using one to request right of way. Tow trucks and so forth would not be requesting right of way and their amber lighting would not be considered a courtesy light.

I am of the opinion that regardless of the color set up( red, red/blue, red/white, etc) that if a state allows the use of lights for vol fire/rescue/ems, that a siren must be used. Solid blue or green lights without a siren is confusing to other motorists.

Having said that, their will always be that one or a few that want to drive like a bat out of hell because the blink blinks and woo woo's are on. You have to deal with those people directly and not the entire department. training and policies need to be in place to govern this.

As far as color schemes for lights, Eh, well that will always very state to state as the government of each state sets the code for them. While a standard color scheme would be nice across the country that just will not happen any time soon.

So in closing use and abide by what your state allows, and please be safe when driving emergency! You don't help anyone if you don't make to the station, scene or hospital!

Stay safe.


Chris

I think there is an easy solution to this whole "volunteer being able to use emergency lighting" argument. Get rid of volunteers. I know this is never going to happen, but I think it would be a good idea if each firefighter, and first responder, were professionals who were paid for what they do. As I mentioned, I'm sure this wouldn't work for rural areas, and I know volunteers are an integral part of the emergency services, but if everyone were paid, they wouldn't have to worry about using their personal vehicles and what emergency lighting they'd need.

Pay all firefighters, that's what I say.

Originally Posted by dg0223

I think there is an easy solution to this whole "volunteer being able to use emergency lighting" argument. Get rid of volunteers. I know this is never going to happen, but I think it would be a good idea if each firefighter, and first responder, were professionals who were paid for what they do. As I mentioned, I'm sure this wouldn't work for rural areas, and I know volunteers are an integral part of the emergency services, but if everyone were paid, they wouldn't have to worry about using their personal vehicles and what emergency lighting they'd need.

Pay all firefighters, that's what I say.

Are you serious?

Originally Posted by CPDG23

No, Ohio is a full lights and siren state. Different departments have individual rules though.

Indeed. The public can actually be cited for "Failure to Yield to an Emergency Vehicle" if not yielding to a vehicle equipped with warning lights and sirens. We've utilized this law (in my department) several times with people chatting on cell phones, semi-trucks and downright ignorant drivers.