Thread: Courtesy Lights

Originally Posted by Jared @ 911Lights

A recent statistic from Pennsylvania:

Little was the sixth Pennsylvania volunteer firefighter who has been killed in a vehicle accident while on duty since 2000, according to state fire commissioner Edward Mann.
Those six volunteer firefighters - all less than 25 years old - were operating private vehicles, not fire trucks

From Speed an issue in firefighter crashes - Evening Sun

Better training, like requiring a (real) CEVO course, and more accountability (so the guy who drives like an asshole loses his privileges) would most probably lower that number.
Also, driving is in general the most dangerous thing a person does, and specifically first responders, whether you're driving a POV or a Dept. vehicle.
Limiting a POV to 2 or less lights is stupid. If you're allowing a person to use lights, why limit them? Why not allow them to be visible?

Originally Posted by Jared @ 911Lights

To set the record straight, I was a volunteer firefighter in a suburban department, so I'm very pro-volunteer (disclosure: I was a paid medic). However there are some key differences:

1) Paid Responders Tend to Have More Training

*** It is just a fact of life, if you are a volunteer, that means you probably have a day job and can't be on the drill deck twice a week.

2) Paid Responders Have More To Lose

*** Losing a volunteer position sucks, but losing a paycheck is much worse.

3) Volunteer Organizations Have More to Lose

*** It's a lot harder to find, recruit, and retain volunteers than it is paid staff. Organizations tend to put up with more from volunteers because they are harder to replace.

4) There is More Accountability and Visibility in Department Vehicle

*** I'm not advocating that every volunteer have striping, a full lightbar, 200 watt siren, deck lights, etc. on their POV(although it would be nice for business). But there is something to be said about how we drive when it is someone else's vehicle with their name on the side.

5) Volunteers are more likely to be Less Experience, Younger & Unsupervised (Especially when it comes to driving)

*** Think about a paid fire service, those who are driving the apparatus are engineers, who have had the time to move up the ranks. With that time, they have had more training, gained more experience, and can make better judgment calls. Most new LEOs spend at least a year full time (2000 hours) driving with a training officer before they drive alone. And rarely is anyone ever driving an Ambulance alone.

When you hand a 21 year old boy a flashy light (with or without a siren), no matter how much training you give him, he is still going to act like a stupid 21 year old boy.

A recent statistic from Pennsylvania:

Little was the sixth Pennsylvania volunteer firefighter who has been killed in a vehicle accident while on duty since 2000, according to state fire commissioner Edward Mann.
Those six volunteer firefighters - all less than 25 years old - were operating private vehicles, not fire trucks

From Speed an issue in firefighter crashes - Evening Sun

Excelent Post! However, there are always exceptions... For those outside the fire industry, please don't sterotype us. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Jared @ 911Lights

To set the record straight, I was a volunteer firefighter in a suburban department, so I'm very pro-volunteer (disclosure: I was a paid medic). However there are some key differences:

1) Paid Responders Tend to Have More Training

*** It is just a fact of life, if you are a volunteer, that means you probably have a day job and can't be on the drill deck twice a week.

2) Paid Responders Have More To Lose

*** Losing a volunteer position sucks, but losing a paycheck is much worse.

3) Volunteer Organizations Have More to Lose

*** It's a lot harder to find, recruit, and retain volunteers than it is paid staff. Organizations tend to put up with more from volunteers because they are harder to replace.

4) There is More Accountability and Visibility in Department Vehicle

*** I'm not advocating that every volunteer have striping, a full lightbar, 200 watt siren, deck lights, etc. on their POV(although it would be nice for business). But there is something to be said about how we drive when it is someone else's vehicle with their name on the side.

5) Volunteers are more likely to be Less Experience, Younger & Unsupervised (Especially when it comes to driving)

*** Think about a paid fire service, those who are driving the apparatus are engineers, who have had the time to move up the ranks. With that time, they have had more training, gained more experience, and can make better judgment calls. Most new LEOs spend at least a year full time (2000 hours) driving with a training officer before they drive alone. And rarely is anyone ever driving an Ambulance alone.

When you hand a 21 year old boy a flashy light (with or without a siren), no matter how much training you give him, he is still going to act like a stupid 21 year old boy.

A recent statistic from Pennsylvania:

Little was the sixth Pennsylvania volunteer firefighter who has been killed in a vehicle accident while on duty since 2000, according to state fire commissioner Edward Mann.
Those six volunteer firefighters - all less than 25 years old - were operating private vehicles, not fire trucks

From Speed an issue in firefighter crashes - Evening Sun

I think you made some excellent points and then shot yourself in the foot with the 2nd to last thing you said.

Age isn't everything. I know some extremely mature and responsible 21 year olds, and I know some people who have been in the fire service (and operating apparatus) for 30+ years who cause me to cringe when they get in the driver's seat. One of our most trusted apparatus operators is 26.

Most of the folks who have lights on their vehicles around here at least have one or more department stickers on their vehicle. I'd be in favor of having some more visible marking being a requirement to having lights. With that marking would come greater responsibility, and as such I would think a higher level of training might be required.

Originally Posted by bwoodruff

I think you made some excellent points and then shot yourself in the foot with the 2nd to last thing you said.

Age isn't everything. I know some extremely mature and responsible 21 year olds, and I know some people who have been in the fire service (and operating apparatus) for 30+ years who cause me to cringe when they get in the driver's seat. One of our most trusted apparatus operators is 26.

Age isn't everything, but it is a major factor (if not they major factor) The statistics don't lie, we know that younger drivers (firefighters or otherwise) are more likely to have an accident. I'm not sure how you can argue with the LODD statistics from Pennsylvania (the state with the most number of volunteer firefighters).


Little was the sixth Pennsylvania volunteer firefighter who has been killed in a vehicle accident while on duty since 2000, according to state fire commissioner Edward Mann.
Those six volunteer firefighters - all less than 25 years old - were operating private vehicles, not fire trucks

Originally Posted by Jared @ 911Lights

Age isn't everything, but it is a major factor (if not they major factor) The statistics don't lie, we know that younger drivers (firefighters or otherwise) are more likely to have an accident. I'm not sure how you can argue with the LODD statistics from Pennsylvania (the state with the most number of volunteer firefighters).


Little was the sixth Pennsylvania volunteer firefighter who has been killed in a vehicle accident while on duty since 2000, according to state fire commissioner Edward Mann.
Those six volunteer firefighters - all less than 25 years old - were operating private vehicles, not fire trucks

There are a lot of things wrong with that "statistic."

What percentage of volunteer firefighters were killed since 2000 responding to a job?
What percentage of non-volunteer firefighters were killed since 2000 going to a job?
What percentage of non-volunteer firefighters who were killed since 2000 going to a job were less than 25 years old?

I actually gave the PA state fire commission a call today. Since 2000, six firefighters have been killed while responding to an incident:

All were volunteers
All were driving POVs
Five were under 21 years old
All were under 25 years old

Originally Posted by bwoodruff

There are a lot of things wrong with that "statistic."

What percentage of volunteer firefighters were killed since 2000 responding to a job?
What percentage of non-volunteer firefighters were killed since 2000 going to a job?
What percentage of non-volunteer firefighters who were killed since 2000 going to a job were less than 25 years old?

Originally Posted by Jared @ 911Lights

I actually gave the PA state fire commission a call today. Since 2000, six firefighters have been killed while responding to an incident:

All were volunteers
All were driving POVs
Five were under 21 years old
All were under 25 years old

I did a little research and found that there are at least 1,600 fire stations in PA. Let's say 1/3 of them are paid (which I think is an overestimation). That's at least ~1060 volunteer stations. Let's say that each station runs an average of 100 calls per year (which I think is a gross underestimation), and on each call only one rig is manned with five men.

1060 stations x 100 calls per year x 5 POV responses per call x 12 years = 6,360,000 POV responses in the last 12 years, only 6 of which have resulted in fatalities. That's a 0.00009433% fatality rate or a 1 in 1,060,000 chance of being killed while responding.

Statistically speaking, POV responses in PA are very safe.

Courtesy lights just confuse people,plain and simple. As I said in another thread, they should change at the least that motorists HAVE to yield to us,and ease the restriction on placement/colors. I agree that one should also employ audible warning if using lighting,however I dont see that ever changing. A national standard would be great.