Civilian Amber Lighting Use in Texas

[aggmeister10]

Hello All,


I started to get into this in my new-member thread, but I didn't want to get off topic in that forum, so I'm starting a new discussion here.


I'm in TX, and not a Security/EMS/Fire/Police responder. I am, however, interested in purchasing a dark blue or grey P71 with a few amber lights for security on my lot and on job sites because the vehicles are cheap, safe, and practically indestructible.


I have a truck right now and much of the service work I do takes me to weird parts of town, or out in the middle of nowhere, occasionally at odd hours. I've been robbed a handful of times for tools and such, and I'm hoping a retired service car with some security lighting (for use on private land only obviously), both in the form of amber strobe lights and flood lighting, will help out. I'm looking at the CV's with dual spotlights for flood lighting purposes, and as far as strobes go - only interior lighting that can be decently hidden behind some light tint - no light bars, because I don't want to freak out people on the highway when I'm driving to sites. A package like this in ALL AMBER:


https://www.speedtechlights.com/package_detail.php?iid=1&id=2046


I want to make sure that I properly understand the responsibility that comes along with even just amber lights, as well as the legality of having them -- the last thing I want is to freak out another civilian, freak out an officer and end up with a lighting citation -- or worse, end up with an "impersonation" charge for merely having the darn things.


So, two questions to start off:


1) Is it legal for me to do this? It appears as though amber lighting is open game, and i'm not going to risk adding white up front or red in the back - I'm not trying to scare anyone here, just deter crime on job sites, and Amber should work as good as anything.


2) Though it is not my intent to come anywhere close to performing the work of a peace officer (I'd never think of pulling people over or trying to bypass traffic), I do not want an officer to mistake my intentions and believe I am impersonating his role. I couldn't find any code that spelled out what type of actions deserve an impersonation citation...does that only apply to those attempting to pull people over or use some sort of imaginary authority to harass people? I see "Top Gun Security" vehicles (PPV Chargers, etc) driving to/from whatever sites they're working on all the time, but they do have official security licenses, which I do not have (and as far as I know, don't need since this is for use mostly on my own private property and when approved on job sites).


Thanks in advance for any advice you might have. Not trying to be a "whacker," just trying to find a way to keep myself safe out there!


PS: I've seen a few members claim they want amber strobes to help stranded cars...while I'm all for helping people, that's just much too dangerous for me in this day and age. I'm sticking with use on private property only.

 

[erlh2012]

Considering I am not from TX and have never been there someone else will have to chime in on legality but most of the time no one will complain about amber. As for the light package you provided a link to. Stay away. Speed tech lights are fairly inexpensive and for good reason. The light output is not great and neither is the quality. For what you are using it for i would go with two lights in the rear deck and either grill lights or a dash light. Stick with a quality products like feniex, rontan, fedsig, whelen, star, ect. Feniex will probably give you the best bang for your buck and good quality.

 

[aggmeister10]

Considering I am not from TX and have never been there someone else will have to chime in on legality but most of the time no one will complain about amber. As for the light package you provided a link to. Stay away. Speed tech lights are fairly inexpensive and for good reason. The light output is not great and neither is the quality. For what you are using it for i would go with two lights in the rear deck and either grill lights or a dash light. Stick with a quality products like feniex, rontan, fedsig, whelen, star, ect. Feniex will probably give you the best bang for your buck and good quality.

Thanks for the product input - I wouldn't have realized that. I only know them because their facility is near one of my customers, and I walked in once and played with their demo's. I will admit I didn't like that they have their own proprietary controller, so you'd have a ton of small controllers to mess with, rather than one integrated control box. They looked decently bright and solid in the demo rack, but I have zero experience with lighting so what do I know!

 

[MEVS06]

Ok, first things first I do apologize for the delay in my reply to your PM. I am an active LEO in Texas. I see no issues with what you are trying to acomplish here. I understand the circumstances you are talking about.


Secondly, do not whatsoever waste time or money on STL. It is garbage and I would not trust it to mot catch my vehicle in fire. I know you said you sometume are in my area. I am also a dealer and installer. Let me know if I can be of any assistance.

 

[aggmeister10]

Ok, first things first I do apologize for the delay in my reply to your PM. I am an active LEO in Texas. I see no issues with what you are trying to acomplish here. I understand the circumstances you are talking about.

Secondly, do not whatsoever waste time or money on STL. It is garbage and I would not trust it to mot catch my vehicle in fire. I know you said you sometume are in my area. I am also a dealer and installer. Let me know if I can be of any assistance.

No problem on the delay, actually I didn't expect to hear back for quite a while since you're running more than one operation! And I appreciate your input on my idea -- I figure at some point, I'll end up getting pulled over by an officer who is curious why a P71 CV with some form of lighting is registered to an individual, and I want to make sure that after demonstrating that it only has amber lights and explaining my situation, he/she wouldn't bust out some line of code I've never heard of or just plain call BS and slap me with impersonation, when that's not at all my goal.


I will keep your info for an installation...I'm on a budget, which is why I was looking at STL - could you quote me something similar to that package?

 

[K9Vic]

Acting in this manner regardless if it is your property and especially on a job site would be impersonation of a Security Officer. Yes Texas has a law against that and doing what you are saying you must have a license from the Texas Commission on Private Security.


TxDPS - PSB Impersonating a Security Officer

Sec. 1702.3875. Impersonating Security Officer; Offense

(a) A person commits an offense if the person:


1. impersonates a commissioned or noncommissioned security officer with the intent to induce another to submit to the person’s pretended authority or to rely on the person’s pretended acts of a security officer; or


2. knowingly purports to exercise any function that requires registration as a noncommissioned security officer or a security officer commission.


( B) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

 

[aggmeister10]

Acting in this manner regardless if it is your property and especially on a job site would be impersonation of a Security Officer. Yes Texas has a law against that and doing what you are saying you must have a license from the Texas Commission on Private Security.

TxDPS - PSB Impersonating a Security Officer

I appreciate your input - but perhaps you could be more clear on how I'd be impersonating a security officer? I'm not identifying myself as security in any way or trying to use any sort of false authority to command people around - I'm simply using amber warning/hazard lighting and additional spot lights to make more people aware of our presence on a site - in hopes that this would deter criminals from wanting to come say hello. Sort of similar to how construction trucks use amber lighting on roadways to deter people from getting close to them, I suppose. Following the whole "criminals hate light" premise...

 

[Station 3]

Well to tell you the truth i would just go get me a CCW license and buy a pistol and wait for someone to try to rob me again and let god decide if the amount of holes in them is enough to grant them access to hell or not....


But thats just me...


And as for the lights and such just keep your current ride and go to auto zone or walmart and buy a 20 dollar amber rotator for the roof... that should work fine

 

[TDC]

As for the amber lights, they technically appear to be fine on a vehicle in Texas, but they are a warning device. If you don't have a reason to use a warning device on the highway (any public road), it is a separate violation. Typical use of that statue is when people beep their car horns for no reason or to say hi to someone.


Otherwise I agree with K9Vic here.


One thing that really sticks out with most of the "What is legal?" posts is the strict law.


If a reasonable person would believe that you were a Security Officer, then you are. I wouldn't worry about what you actually do, but what you appear to be doing in another's eyes, especially the DA or a Grand Jury. If a person came up to you and asked you for help because they reasonably thought by your presentation (car; lights) that you were Security, and you are not licensed, then you have knowingly violated the law. There is no difference between a sign that says, "Security," and a dark Crown Vic with amber lights on it, on, "a job site." Future risk is the greatest concern.


I know of two uniformed Police who bad guys tried to rob, too. Rob a bank 'cause that's where the money is; Rob a Security 'cause they have guns?


Now your own personal property is another matter; just make sure your neighbor doesn't get assaulted then comes to you for help because you look like Security. That probably would never be an issue, ever, but... risk.


Another example of interpretation might be if you have ever yielded to a Police car with lights on only. If it doesn't have the, "as high and wide as possible," alternating red lights (think School Bus), it isn't an Authorized Emergency Vehicle in Texas. Police vehicles in Texas are, "exempt from all lighting reqirements," but an AEV may have a, "siren, whistle or bell." Even on DPS cars, they are not AEVs until that siren comes on. BUT, you think they are an AEV, so you pull over. Of course that all stems from an Officer from the Transportation Code regulating traffic. The Officer could just as easy point for you to pull over. Again, reasonableness of what a person actually thinks at the time.


Just something to think about. That, and post #1 will be on Internet forever.

 

[Firetrux]

I'm in TX, and not a Security/EMS/Fire/Police responder. I am, however, interested in purchasing a dark blue or grey P71 with a few amber lights for security on my lot and on job sites because the vehicles are cheap, safe, and practically indestructible.

I have a truck right now and much of the service work I do takes me to weird parts of town, or out in the middle of nowhere, occasionally at odd hours. I'm looking at the CV's with dual spotlights for flood lighting purposes, and as far as strobes go - only interior lighting that can be decently hidden behind some light tint - no light bars, because I don't want to freak out people on the highway when I'm driving to sites. I want to make sure that I properly understand the responsibility that comes along with even just amber lights, as well as the legality of having them -- the last thing I want is to freak out another civilian, freak out an officer and end up with a lighting citation -- or worse, end up with an "impersonation" charge for merely having the darn things.

I am not a LEO and don't know Texas law, but the fact that you even had to ask leads me to believe you know the answer. You are somewhat vague about the "real use". However, it definitely sounds by these quotes that you know full well that you are trying to use the appearance of that specific vehicle, with that very lighting as a deterrent. You know the look.

If a reasonable person would believe that you were a Security Officer, then you are. I wouldn't worry about what you actually do, but what you appear to be doing in another's eyes, especially the DA or a Grand Jury. There is no difference between a sign that says, "Security," and a dark Crown Vic with amber lights on it, on, "a job site." Future risk is the greatest concern.

Just something to think about. That, and post #1 will be on Internet forever.

Yes it is something to think about. Just by asking the question publicly, you have perhaps offered up some pretty good evidence for your impersonation trial, that you at least suspected what you are doing was wrong...

 

[foxtrot5]

I've got a Crown Vic as a daily driver with authorized red lights and siren. It does nothing to deter people who really have poor intentions. For additional protection I call my buddy John Browning...

 

[aggmeister10]

I am not a LEO and don't know Texas law, but the fact that you even had to ask leads me to believe you know the answer. You are somewhat vague about the "real use". However, it definitely sounds by these quotes that you know full well that you are trying to use the appearance of that specific vehicle, with that very lighting as a deterrent. You know the look.

Yes it is something to think about. Just by asking the question publicly, you have perhaps offered up some pretty good evidence for your impersonation trial, that you at least suspected what you are doing was wrong...

I disagree that simply asking a question implies that I have malicious intent. Isn't the whole reason why we have attorneys for law consultation, and the whole reason behind this forum in general, to allow people to ask details about about the equipment itself and how it can be used legally? If that wasn't the case, then why are there so many EMS/fire personnel asking the same thing, and a master-sticky about legality in each state?


I'm aware that nothing ever truly leaves the internet once it's posted, which is why I'm very clear to make my intentions clear - I'm just trying to find a way to make potential criminals uncomfortable committing a crime in the area where I'm working...part of the way I deter crime at home is by leaving lights on at night, and it's no different here.


I'm not trying to fight with you, I'm just trying to get a clear interpretation of the law, especially since now I've heard LEOs give answers on both sides. I guess my big question is this: is it just the vehicle itself that is an issue when equipped with any form of lighting, whether the lighting is legal or not? Law Enforcement didn't invent the Crown Vic, they just happen to use it - and I've seen many P71s and the like at police auctions being sold directly to the public from police departments that still have spotlights and push bars. So what's to stop a "reasonably informed" civilian from thinking that joe-schmoe in a beat up old retired cruiser is a security pr peace officer? If I had amber lights on an Excursion used for work, and then the local police or security teams started using Expeditions, would I be expected to remove my lights?

I've got a Crown Vic as a daily driver with authorized red lights and siren. It does nothing to deter people who really have poor intentions. For additional protection I call my buddy John Browning...

That's interesting to hear, as I know I wouldn't approach any vehicle that had any type of warning light going...but I guess I don't have that criminal mind.

 

[HILO]

Seeing how this is the second thread in which you have asked the same question, I give you this...


If your getting jacked, I do not think a CVPI with amber lights is going to detour a hooks intention. Even more so with it being an ex cop car. In case you have not noticed, the yo's love the ex cop cars, be it Vic's or Impala's. They put big silly wheels and loud stereos on the cars. They think they are mocking the Police by turning the ex cop cars into yo rides. Up here in Dallas, it started getting very popular in the mid 2000's. We figured the yo's spent so much time in the back of cop cars, they wanted to experience the ride from the front seat! Whatever the reason, the trend is nation wide, I spotted a dozen in the Chicago area a month ago. The only downside to the ex cop cars being so popular with the yo's is that they will buy one cheap and steal another to fix theirs up. Fully dressed security guard cars have been stolen and chopped. I've heard of small town PD's losing a car from time to time. In thought, if a yo happens to be looking for a score, and sees your Vic hanging around, it will get got. They even steal in service private Ambulances in Houston, to sell for scrap. Personally I think you would make yourself more of a target with an ex cop car. Better to keep your truck, add some decent LED scene or flood lights all around , and an amber beacon on the roof. Hooks do not like light. And you indeed 'heard' bad information, red to the rear is still red, and illegal, same with white and blue. No matter what. It's in the transportation code.


Furthermore, the whole 'undercover' lighting on an ex cop car screams whacker, or someone who gets wood from driving a look a like car, causing the other motorists to slow down, not pass, or otherwise behave as if it were a LE vehicle. In Texas, you can be charged with impersonating a Peace Officer, causing a citizen to act or respond to your actions (to wit, operating a vehicle that looks like a Police car) as they would a Peace Officer. Is that a frequent charge? No, but it does happen. Your posting the question in another thread, and then creating a new thread with the same question gives me the impression you do not like the answers you got on the first thread. We have heard the 'its a strong, cheap, fast, dependable, car' attempt at rational before. The truth is, CVPI's are not any faster than a Hyundai Sonata, you can find better used vehicles for the same price, if not cheaper, the money you have to spend to repair a retired cop car negates the lower auction price, remember, most departments retire their cars because they get so worn out, the cost of upkeep exceedes the value of the car. If your working as a service tech, you are not going to have the room for all your tools and equipment in a sedan that you have in your truck. And there is no need to have anything more than a beacon for your work.


And TDC is correct, there is a statue in the transportation code about unlawful use of warning equipment. Horn, hazard lamps, flashing ones high beams, and yes, added amber flashing lights, are all subject to use.


Be smart, stay away from the look alike cop car with under cover lights. There is zero benifit, and a whole mess of issues, going that way. Get a mini bar, or beacon for your truck, along with scene lighting, and be happy.

 

[aggmeister10]

Seeing how this is the second thread in which you have asked the same question, I give you this...

If your getting jacked, I do not think a CVPI with amber lights is going to detour a hooks intention. Even more so with it being an ex cop car. In case you have not noticed, the yo's love the ex cop cars, be it Vic's or Impala's. They put big silly wheels and loud stereos on the cars. They think they are mocking the Police by turning the ex cop cars into yo rides. Up here in Dallas, it started getting very popular in the mid 2000's. We figured the yo's spent so much time in the back of cop cars, they wanted to experience the ride from the front seat! Whatever the reason, the trend is nation wide, I spotted a dozen in the Chicago area a month ago. The only downside to the ex cop cars being so popular with the yo's is that they will buy one cheap and steal another to fix theirs up. Fully dressed security guard cars have been stolen and chopped. I've heard of small town PD's losing a car from time to time. In thought, if a yo happens to be looking for a score, and sees your Vic hanging around, it will get got. They even steal in service private Ambulances in Houston, to sell for scrap. Personally I think you would make yourself more of a target with an ex cop car. Better to keep your truck, add some decent LED scene or flood lights all around , and an amber beacon on the roof. Hooks do not like light. And you indeed 'heard' bad information, red to the rear is still red, and illegal, same with white and blue. No matter what. It's in the transportation code.


Furthermore, the whole 'undercover' lighting on an ex cop car screams whacker, or someone who gets wood from driving a look a like car, causing the other motorists to slow down, not pass, or otherwise behave as if it were a LE vehicle. In Texas, you can be charged with impersonating a Peace Officer, causing a citizen to act or respond to your actions (to wit, operating a vehicle that looks like a Police car) as they would a Peace Officer. Is that a frequent charge? No, but it does happen. Your posting the question in another thread, and then creating a new thread with the same question gives me the impression you do not like the answers you got on the first thread. We have heard the 'its a strong, cheap, fast, dependable, car' attempt at rational before. The truth is, CVPI's are not any faster than a Hyundai Sonata, you can find better used vehicles for the same price, if not cheaper, the money you have to spend to repair a retired cop car negates the lower auction price, remember, most departments retire their cars because they get so worn out, the cost of upkeep exceedes the value of the car. If your working as a service tech, you are not going to have the room for all your tools and equipment in a sedan that you have in your truck. And there is no need to have anything more than a beacon for your work.


And TDC is correct, there is a statue in the transportation code about unlawful use of warning equipment. Horn, hazard lamps, flashing ones high beams, and yes, added amber flashing lights, are all subject to use.


Be smart, stay away from the look alike cop car with under cover lights. There is zero benifit, and a whole mess of issues, going that way. Get a mini bar, or beacon for your truck, along with scene lighting, and be happy.

'I made a new thread because I didn't think the "Member Introduction" area was the right place to have this discussion - I think this topic has seen much more participation in the Visual Warning subforum than it would have in Member Introductions. Plus, it makes it easier for other users to search for this topic in the future should they have the same question. Nothing to do with not liking the answer, just wanted to make sure I detailed it out in the correct subforum.


You do have some good points in your statement. I can see how - while legal - amber lighting in an ex service car could give off the wrong impression. And that was one of my big points - I don't want any setup...even if it's legal to have the lights themselves...to cause any trouble.


I guess all of the above aside, what bugs me is the statement that AMBER lights - which are legal and unregulated - somehow become part of a potential crime when combined with any vehicle that any person might potentially think is a security or police car. That seems like a violation of my rights, based on some random person's potential perception of the presence of a legal lighting solution. I'm not trying to throw up my arms in protest and start a big fuss, it just seems like there's a lot left up to "would/could/should" here, without specific definition. As an engineer, I'm not a fan of vague things being left up for interpretation!


It sounds like the best option would be to add some auxiliary lighting (such as KC Flood Lights) to the headache rack on the truck with a mini-bar and save some money to take the girlfriend out to dinner '

 

[foxtrot5]

I guess all of the above aside, what bugs me is the statement that AMBER lights - which are legal and unregulated - somehow become part of a potential crime when combined with any vehicle that any person might potentially think is a security or police car. That seems like a violation of my rights, based on some random person's potential perception of the presence of a legal lighting solution. I'm not trying to throw up my arms in protest and start a big fuss, it just seems like there's a lot left up to "would/could/should" here, without specific definition. As an engineer, I'm not a fan of vague things being left up for interpretation!

With modern LED lighting it is IMPOSSIBLE for even the most well versed warning light fanatic to identify what color a light is until it's activated. An all amber traffic director on the rear deck looks a hell of a lot like a R/B warning stick on the rear deck. An amber dash light looks a lot like a red or blue dash light........ you get my point. If I see a CV, Charger, PI, Impala, Tahoe, ect. driving down the road with clear lensed lights on it, my first thought is "official vehicle" until proven otherwise.

It sounds like the best option would be to add some auxiliary lighting (such as KC Flood Lights) to the headache rack on the truck with a mini-bar and save some money to take the girlfriend out to dinner '

yes, this is your best option. Get youself an amber FS halogen Highlighter. They're pretty cheap and bright as hell. Use the money saved to invest in auxiliary lighting.

 

[JazzDad]

If it's construction site security you desire, get a Bobcat and put a blown hemi in it. Drive around with your hard hat on. If you see a criminal activity take place, hit the exhaust cut-out, buzz over, scoop up the baddie, and dump him into a concrete mixer.


Why do I always have to come in with these simple solutions? :duh:

 

[aggmeister10]

With modern LED lighting it is IMPOSSIBLE for even the most well versed warning light fanatic to identify what color a light is until it's activated. An all amber traffic director on the rear deck looks a hell of a lot like a R/B warning stick on the rear deck. An amber dash light looks a lot like a red or blue dash light........ you get my point. If I see a CV, Charger, PI, Impala, Tahoe, ect. driving down the road with clear lensed lights on it, my first thought is "official vehicle" until proven otherwise.

I'm not even talking about big light bars - I'm just saying, it's just a shame that the common perception is that something as small as this in amber:


http://www.ledguy.net/soundoff/predator2/EP2FPCWS(x).jpg


which would be legally used to alert others to potential dangerous conditions and increase the safety of others, could end up causing a vehicle to be misinterpreted as an official vehicle. What if one could find that with amber lens covers? Would that be okay? I'm not saying anyone is going to go and do that, I'm just curious if that would change the interpretation of the law since the lights then APPEAR amber when off, as well as light up amber when activated.

yes, this is your best option. Get youself an amber FS halogen Highlighter. They're pretty cheap and bright as hell. Use the money saved to invest in auxiliary lighting.

I'll look into the Highlighter - thanks!

 

[mdlighting]

What kind of truck do you have in the first place

 

[aggmeister10]

What kind of truck do you have in the first place

Just a standard F150

 

[Storm4200]

Keep the f150, add a back rack, mini led bar, and a bunch of led flood lights. Done.

 

[aggmeister10]

Keep the f150, add a back rack, mini led bar, and a bunch of led flood lights. Done.

Agreed - after all the discussion in here, that's my new plan. It's just not worth the hassle of having amber LEDs - whether they have amber lenses or not - potentially mistaken for something they're not. It seems like it'll be just too much of a hassle to prove that my legal equipment is being used in a legal way.

 

[Skip Goulet]

Just considering the topic of amber lights, which started this thread, amber lights alone on any sort of vehicle are not illegal in Texas. Neither is blue alone. Blue is not (contrary to a lot of LEO opinion) an emergency color by itself. Used in conjunction with existing red lights on an emergency vehicle (red is the mandated emergency color in TX), blue is an auxilliary color. For example, if you're a vollie and are responding to a fire call, you must be displaying red, and now you must also be running a siren. If you just happened to have a blue "Kojak" light,etc., and run with alone (with or w/o a siren), you'd be in violation of Texas law, since red is required.


I made note on another thread that a good friend of mine who was the vollie fire chief in Hawley, TX (he's now retired) allowed his volunteers to run red/blue combinations on their light setups on their POVs for fire response. A number of his volunteers kept getting stopped by DPS officers who claimed that blue is reserved solely for law enforcement in Texas. It is not, and never has been.


I had my friend contact the PIO with DPS Austin and in return he got a nice letter that stated that blue is not a reserved color and is an auxilliary color and that his volunteers could run blue in conjunction with existing red on their vehicles. He was given permission to copy the letter and distribute to his members. That letter has since been sent to several VFDs in the state.


What's also interesting is that Texas once allowed volunteers to run lights only on fire calls, but that has changed, as I note above. If you're running "hot" on a fire call both lights and siren must be in operation. I have known of a number of depts in the state that allowed their vollies to run lights only but that has now been corrected.


But what I see in this thread is not so much a discussion on if it's o.k. for this guy to use amber. That's a no brainer. Amber's just fine, but what I'm seeing is intent. Like one response has said, if you look like security, then you are. 'Nuff said. Be careful, and if you insist dressing out your vehicle to look like security.....just don't get caught!

 

[aggmeister10]

But what I see in this thread is not so much a discussion on if it's o.k. for this guy to use amber. That's a no brainer. Amber's just fine, but what I'm seeing is intent. Like one response has said, if you look like security, then you are. 'Nuff said. Be careful, and if you insist dressing out your vehicle to look like security.....just don't get caught!

See, that's exactly the point. It should be noted that my plan going forward is to simply install a visibly amber mini-bar on a work truck, with lots of flood lights, and call it a day.


However - I've learned quite a bit about how "intent" plays in here, and I just think it's odd how subjective it seems. Anyone could look at a black impala with dark tint and a CB radio antenna from a truck stop and say "WOAH AN UNDERCOVER COP!" -- does that mean he's breaking the law and impersonating a security officer? Or maybe someone bought a used PPV charger because it had a video system in it, and he wanted that dash cam feature. People could see that camera and assume it's a cop...does that mean he's impersonating? Does all of that have to be removed for that person to feel comfortable that they're not going to be mistaken and end up fighting a felony that could lose them their job?


I'm not trying to prod or start something, I'm genuinely curious where your right to own that equipment stops and impersonation begins, especially since what a "reasonable person" could view as a cop is so wide-banded. Any form of lighting in any vehicle could be taken the wrong way. In Houston there are undercover Camaros - so can no civilian ever put a light in a camaro again?


As an example, there's a guy in my neighborhood with a tan ex-service P71. He bought it with a spotlight and push-bumper for $2k and uses it to get to/from his ranch, and out on the dirt roads. He has two tiny amber lights around the third brake light, and two amber by the rear view mirror on the front. He uses them out on his ranch at night, so his family knows it's him coming when he drives up, and not a random trespasser. But if the wrong guy saw it, he might think it's a security car. That's not the fault of my neighbor - it's just some random bloke's interpretation of his legal equipment. Am I thinking about this right?


On a side note, I've seen his CV out there - those Vics with the Limited Slip are insane - there are a bunch of videos of them doing pretty intense rock climbs, mudding, etc!

 

[K9Vic]

Just considering the topic of amber lights, which started this thread, amber lights alone on any sort of vehicle are not illegal in Texas. Neither is blue alone.

You might want to brush up on your state laws as blue alone IS illegal in Texas unless authorized as stated in 547.305. Yes you will see highway construction vehicles with blue, red and/or amber lights (Combined, generally mber & blue), but they are authorized under Texas DOT to use them when working on a state highway. However it is only allowed in the designated work zone that is assigned by TxDOT and must be a state highway/roadway. These regulations are not in the Texas transportation code and I do not know of these rules being online to see.


TxDPS - PSB Warning Lights

c. a person may not operate a motor vehicle equipped with a red, white, or blue beacon, flashing, or alternating lights unless the equipment is:

1. used as specifically authorized by this chapter; or


2. a running lamp, tail lamp, backup lamp, or turn signal lamp that is used as authorized by law.


e. a person may not operate highway maintenance or service equipment, including snow-removal equipment, that is not equipped with lamps or that does not display lighted lamps is required by the standards and specifications adapted by the Texas Department of Transportation.

 

[HILO]

Just considering the topic of amber lights, which started this thread, amber lights alone on any sort of vehicle are not illegal in Texas. Neither is blue alone. Blue is not (contrary to a lot of LEO opinion) an emergency color by itself. Used in conjunction with existing red lights on an emergency vehicle (red is the mandated emergency color in TX), blue is an auxilliary color. For example, if you're a vollie and are responding to a fire call, you must be displaying red, and now you must also be running a siren. If you just happened to have a blue "Kojak" light,etc., and run with alone (with or w/o a siren), you'd be in violation of Texas law, since red is required.

Your so very wrong Skip. Per the Transportation Code, any red light, blue light, or clear light is not only illegal to use if not an EV, but illegal to have on your vehicle. It's not LEO opinion, it is clearly a State of Texas law.


State Of Texas Transportation Code


§ 547.305. RESTRICTIONS ON USE OF LIGHTS. (a) A motor


vehicle lamp or illuminating device, other than a headlamp,


spotlamp, auxiliary lamp, turn signal lamp, or emergency vehicle or


school bus warning lamp, that projects a beam with an intensity


brighter than 300 candlepower shall be directed so that no part of


the high-intensity portion of the beam strikes the roadway at a


distance of more than 75 feet from the vehicle.


( B) Except as expressly authorized by law, a person may not


operate or move equipment or a vehicle, other than a police vehicle,


with a lamp or device that displays a red light visible from


directly in front of the center of the equipment or vehicle.


© A person may not operate a motor vehicle equipped with a


red, white, or blue beacon, flashing, or alternating light unless


the equipment is:


(1) used as specifically authorized by this chapter;


or


(2) a running lamp, headlamp, taillamp, backup lamp,


or turn signal lamp that is used as authorized by law.


(d) A vehicle may be equipped with alternately flashing


lighting equipment described by Section 547.701 or 547.702 only if


the vehicle is:


(1) a school bus;


(2) an authorized emergency vehicle;


(3) a church bus that has the words "church bus"


printed on the front and rear of the bus so as to be clearly


discernable to other vehicle operators;


(4) a tow truck while under the direction of a law


enforcement officer at the scene of an accident or while hooking up


to a disabled vehicle on a roadway; or


(5) a tow truck with a mounted light bar which has turn


signals and stop lamps in addition to those required by Sections


547.322, 547.323, and 547.324, Transportation Code.


(e) A person may not operate highway maintenance or service


equipment, including snow-removal equipment, that is not equipped


with lamps or that does not display lighted lamps as required by the


standards and specifications adopted by the Texas Department of


Transportation.


(f) In this section "tow truck" means a motor vehicle or


mechanical device that is adapted or used to tow, winch, or move a


disabled vehicle.





Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995. Amended


by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 380, § 1, eff. July 1, 1999.

 

[nerdly_dood]

With modern LED lighting it is IMPOSSIBLE for even the most well versed warning light fanatic to identify what color a light is until it's activated.

False. White LEDs are actually blue LEDs with a phosphorus coating so they look yellow when turned off. This applies to every single white LED that isn't made of multiple LEDs of different colors packaged all together.

But when it comes to red, blue, green, amber, nobody can tell.

 

[patrol530]

I remember when the sight of amberlamps struck fear in the heart of criminals, well not really.

 

[HILO]

Dude, your so missing the point anyhow. It is not the amber lights (even clear LED when off) that are the issue, it is the choice of vehicle along with the 'under cover' style lights that bothers me. Your doing the want vs need dance. You want a CVPI, because it will make people (crims you claim) think its a Police car, and be scared off. Thats about all I see, because the further justification of using for work as a service tech holds no water. A hook will lose interest in an F150 with 360 degrees of bright LED scene lighting and mini bar, faster than a CVPI that is obviously not a LE vehicle as it is only amber. The right scumbag will even look at the CVPI as a challenge, thinking maybe there is an armed security guard that he can steal not only the car, but any weapons as well.


You showed an example of a sound of predator CHiMSiL wrap around. You are already going from one story to talking about assisting/warning other motorists. The story of the rancher with under cover lights to signal his family is odd in itself. You are going to great lengths to justify needing a CVPI with lights. Yes, you are within your rights to buy what ever vehicle you like, ad put as many amber lights in it as you can afford. But is it a good idea? From everything you have said, I say no.

 

[aggmeister10]

Dude, your so missing the point anyhow. It is not the amber lights (even clear LED when off) that are the issue, it is the choice of vehicle along with the 'under cover' style lights that bothers me. Your doing the want vs need dance. You want a CVPI, because it will make people (crims you claim) think its a Police car, and be scared off. Thats about all I see, because the further justification of using for work as a service tech holds no water. A hook will lose interest in an F150 with 360 degrees of bright LED scene lighting and mini bar, faster than a CVPI that is obviously not a LE vehicle as it is only amber. The right scumbag will even look at the CVPI as a challenge, thinking maybe there is an armed security guard that he can steal not only the car, but any weapons as well.

You showed an example of a sound of predator CHiMSiL wrap around. You are already going from one story to talking about assisting/warning other motorists. The story of the rancher with under cover lights to signal his family is odd in itself. You are going to great lengths to justify needing a CVPI with lights. Yes, you are within your rights to buy what ever vehicle you like, ad put as many amber lights in it as you can afford. But is it a good idea? From everything you have said, I say no.

What is "CHiMSiL?"


Just to clarify, I was saying my intent was NOT to assist other motorists. That's what AAA is for. It's dangerous. The story was just an example of how they're used responsibly, but could still be viewed as a problem. I'm beyond using them myself on an ex-service car, I said a few posts up that I wasn't going to take that risk. Taking the advice of some of the LEO's above, I'm just going to do a mini-bar on my truck with a bunch of flood lights - job done, case closed After that, I was just trying to better understand how the term "impersonation" gets interpreted and applied, for my own benefit. And now I have some feedback to show my neighbor, so he knows how his car might be seen by LEO's.

 

[K9Vic]

What is "CHiMSiL?"

Effectiveness of CHMSL

 

[Retired1]

One issue not completely addressed is your statement about providing security on your private property and private property of others. In Texas, if you provide security for persons or property other than your own, you must have a Security Officer license which is issued by Texas DPS (Note: In TX, even reserve peace officers cannot work security for pay without a Security Officer license - which is near impossible to get on your own).


I encourage you to read:


http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/psb/docs/Chap1702OccCodeClean.pdf


TxDPS - Private Security Bureau


prior to providing security for others.


I believe your intent to have your vehicle look like a LEO vehicle will not serve you to accomplish your stated purpose (safety from criminal activity as you travel). There are so many surplus CVPIs on the market now that I don't even give them a second look (unless they have metalflake paint and stagecoach wheels). However, having a POV CVPI and making it resemble a LEO vehicle will likely attract the attention of an LEO.


You have a pick up truck. Pick up trucks are now widely used as patrol vehicles. If you want to appear to be an LEO vehicle, you don't have to buy a CVPI, just find a nice color combo (suggestion: black & white) to wrap your F150 in. Add some clear lensed amber lighting, a siren speaker mounted where it can be seen, a electric airhorn (not a siren), and have at it (albeit be prepared to explain your legality on occasion if stopped by a LEO who has some reasonable suspicion that you may be a LEO impersonator).

 

[HILO]

Center High Mounted Stop Lamp. Cyclops light. Third Brake Light.


Perhaps we've gone astray with the whole 'imposter' phrase. Simply driving a CVPI or other ex cop car indeed does not make one an imposter. Nor does puting amber lights in the windows. It does, however, give the impression that one is trying to look like a Police, or 'official vehicle'. In Texas, the whole unmarked fake cop car thing got way out of hand with security guards. About 5 years ago, the State quietly changed the security rules regarding vehicles. Now, in order for a guard to operate a vehicle for security patrol, with or without lights, the vehicle has to be registered to the security company, carry full coverage insurance, be marked with the company name, as well as the company's State issued license number. This rule was put in place for two reasons really. The second was due to a number of guards trying to write off fuel, equipment, insurance, ect on their personal vehicles for tax reasons. The IRS ruled that security guards were no eligible for these write offs. The State realized that two things were happening. One, a high number of guards have a wannbe complex, and were making their personal cars look like unmarked cop cars, and coming very close or actually crossing the line. Second, cheap company owners were taking advantage of employees by allowing or sometimes making employees use teir personal cars, with out compensation. Along with that rule, the State wrote in laws for cities with a high population (Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, and El Paso) saying that security companies can not have vehicles marked like that cities LE vehicles, nor shoulder patches, badges, or uniforms that look like the cities. This is another law that is not enforced much. In summery, it is not the vehicle alone, that is an issue, it is a combination of vehicle, equipment, and operator mind set that make an issue.


I still have lights and equipment from my official use days, and if I really wanted to, I could tell myself that I have a use to install them in my personal car because I do installs from time to time, and ride with the Patriot Guard. No one would have much to say. But I do not, simply because there is no need to. I will still stop on things under the right settings, like last Friday, I drove up on a passed out male on the sidewalk of a major street. I turned around, put my hazard lights on, and found the subject was overheating and robo tripping. I called 911, PD and the ambulance came out, the guy was transported, the cops and paramedics said had I not stopped, he might have died. Would a pair of amber lights in my back window been useful on a busy 6 lane road way with a speed limit of 50mph? Sure. Am I going to pull my equipment out and put them in for the next time? No. And I do have a nice pair of Code 3 XT6 full amber, as well as a pair of amber green sound off ghosts. Along with dual a/b talon and avenger, pair of a/b split talons, pair of a/b code 3 XT3 duals, green dash laser with tri flash mirror, a/b 911ep light stick, whelen traffic advisor with strobe ends, 2 twin sonics, street hawk, advantage, 2 mini jet bars, 22in Turbo Beam magnetic bar, MX7000, becaon ray 174, 2 CJ184's, Twin Beacon ray visa bar, deck blaster, PA300 siren, Whelen 295SLSA6, Code 3 scorpion,amber whelen guardian, and a Deck Blaster. All those wonderful flashing lights, that could be put to use on my Bonneville, Mariner, or V Star, and yet not a blinkie on any.


Just because we can, does not mean we should.

 

[Skip Goulet]

Your so very wrong Skip. Per the Transportation Code, any red light, blue light, or clear light is not only illegal to use if not an EV, but illegal to have on your vehicle. It's not LEO opinion, it is clearly a State of Texas law.

State Of Texas Transportation Code


§ 547.305. RESTRICTIONS ON USE OF LIGHTS. (a) A motor


vehicle lamp or illuminating device, other than a headlamp,


spotlamp, auxiliary lamp, turn signal lamp, or emergency vehicle or


school bus warning lamp, that projects a beam with an intensity


brighter than 300 candlepower shall be directed so that no part of


the high-intensity portion of the beam strikes the roadway at a


distance of more than 75 feet from the vehicle.


( B) Except as expressly authorized by law, a person may not


operate or move equipment or a vehicle, other than a police vehicle,


with a lamp or device that displays a red light visible from


directly in front of the center of the equipment or vehicle.


© A person may not operate a motor vehicle equipped with a


red, white, or blue beacon, flashing, or alternating light unless


the equipment is:


(1) used as specifically authorized by this chapter;


or


(2) a running lamp, headlamp, taillamp, backup lamp,


or turn signal lamp that is used as authorized by law.


(d) A vehicle may be equipped with alternately flashing


lighting equipment described by Section 547.701 or 547.702 only if


the vehicle is:


(1) a school bus;


(2) an authorized emergency vehicle;


(3) a church bus that has the words "church bus"


printed on the front and rear of the bus so as to be clearly


discernable to other vehicle operators;


(4) a tow truck while under the direction of a law


enforcement officer at the scene of an accident or while hooking up


to a disabled vehicle on a roadway; or


(5) a tow truck with a mounted light bar which has turn


signals and stop lamps in addition to those required by Sections


547.322, 547.323, and 547.324, Transportation Code.


(e) A person may not operate highway maintenance or service


equipment, including snow-removal equipment, that is not equipped


with lamps or that does not display lighted lamps as required by the


standards and specifications adopted by the Texas Department of


Transportation.


(f) In this section "tow truck" means a motor vehicle or


mechanical device that is adapted or used to tow, winch, or move a


disabled vehicle.





Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995. Amended


by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 380, § 1, eff. July 1, 1999.

I guess you'd want to argue with DPS Austin on that one, because they're the ones who said that the vollies using blue along with exisitng red is fine. As to what TXDOT is doing, I heard that the state has now mandated that motorists must pull over for TXDOT's blue and amber lights. And with the work going on right now on I20 between Midland and Odessa, you're seeing a lot of blue/amber. And I'm sure you've heard by now that this part of West Texas is leading in MVA fatalities. There was a fatality on FM1788 on the overpass crossing I20 yesterday afternoon. A female motorist had to stop for an 18-wheeler that had stopped for a red light, and she tried to go around the 18-wheeler, only to get smacked head-on by another 18-wheeler. She was DOS. It's curious to know that blue alone is now coded as illegal. I see a lot of commercial vehicles with single blue lights, along with the escort vehicles on the highway using amber or amber/blue.


One neat story here while on the blue subject dates back to 1969. When I worked as a dispatcher at AID Ambulance in Lubbock, one of our guys showed up with a nice new blue Federal Vitalite. And he had the light sitting on top of his car. I asked why he had the blue light and he said that he did roadside assistance on his off-time, and no one seemed to thing anything about it. But one night I was at home and had the "police radio" on (there were no scanners then, just the old tunebale receivers), and I heard PD dispatch on a call about a guy in a dark blue Chevy with a blue light on top stopping motorists. He supposedly was telling people that he was an "undercover" cop and he had stopped them for this or that reason. Oh hell, I thought, so I called the boss and told him what the guy was doing. The next day our boss told him to keep the blue light off the car or he didn't have a job. But sure enough, a few days later I heard on the radio that he had made another "traffic stop". But guess what......this time it was a real unmarked unit that he pulled. Bye-bye blue light!...and his butt off to the pokey!


Another use of blue-only I used to see was in San Angelo, and since I haven't been down there in a number of years I don't know if they still do it, but the San Angelo Emergency Corps allowed its members to carry and use blue lights on their POVs for emergency response if they were called out on a disaster or other emergency situation. West Texas Fire Extinguisher in San Angelo supplied the SAEC with their magnetic blue lights for many years. Now what I don't know is whether or not they ran to the scene with their blue lights in use or used them just at the scene with their vehicles stationary. But back in those days L.E. tended to "look the other way" if something like that was a bit of an infraction. Just like a fellow I met in the small town of Navasota one time back in the early '60s. I had made a trip to his place for the funeral home I worked for in Odessa, and the first thing I noticed that his ambulance had a sole blue beacon on top. No red at all except the taillights, of course. I asked him how he got by with it, and he said that he had done it for years and no one had bothered him.

 

[K9Vic]

I guess you'd want to argue with DPS Austin on that one, because they're the ones who said that the vollies using blue along with exisitng red is fine.

WTF...... What part of HILO comment did he say that blue was illegal for a Vollie FF/EMT? I do not see it and he stated "VE" and per the link I posted noted in 547.702 an authorized emergency vehicle is stated as a private vehicle of a volunteer firefighter or a certified emergency medical services employee or volunteer when responding to a fire alarm or medical emergency. Link provided agian.


TxDPS - PSB Warning Lights


-------

As to what TXDOT is doing, I heard that the state has now mandated that motorists must pull over for TXDOT's blue and amber lights.

You DO NOT have to pull over for a tow truck, construction vehicle or TxDOT truck with any combination of red, blue, white or amber lights. You have the law 100% wrong and the only recent change is an expansion of the current "Move Over Or Slow Down" Law that is only for tow trucks. There is no provision in the current laws in Texas that state anyone has to yield for anything expect and emergency vehicle with red, blue and/or white lights. A TxDOT vehicle with red/blue or blue/amber is not an emergency vehicle per 547.702.


Sec. 545.156. VEHICLE APPROACHED BY AUTHORIZED EMERGENCY VEHICLE.

Sec. 545.156. VEHICLE APPROACHED BY AUTHORIZED EMERGENCY VEHICLE. (a) On the immediate approach of an authorized emergency vehicle using audible and visual signals that meet the requirements of Sections 547.305 and 547.702, or of a police vehicle lawfully using only an audible signal, an operator, unless otherwise directed by a police officer, shall:



(1) yield the right-of-way;





(2) immediately drive to a position parallel to and as close as possible to the right-hand edge or curb of the roadway clear of any intersection; and





(3) stop and remain standing until the authorized emergency vehicle has passed.





( B) This section does not exempt the operator of an authorized emergency vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons using the highway.

Sec. 545.157. PASSING AUTHORIZED EMERGENCY VEHICLE

Sec. 545.157. PASSING AUTHORIZED EMERGENCY VEHICLE. (a) On approaching a stationary authorized emergency vehicle using visual signals that meet the requirements of Sections 547.305 and 547.702, or a stationary tow truck using equipment authorized by Section 547.305(d), an operator, unless otherwise directed by a police officer, shall:



(1) vacate the lane closest to the emergency vehicle or tow truck when driving on a highway with two or more lanes traveling in the direction of the emergency vehicle or tow truck; or





(2) slow to a speed not to exceed:





(A) 20 miles per hour less than the posted speed limit when the posted speed limit is 25 miles per hour or more; or





( B) five miles per hour when the posted speed limit is less than 25 miles per hour.





( B) A violation of this section is:





(1) a misdemeanor punishable under Section 542.401;





(2) a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of $500 if the violation results in property damage; or





(3) a Class B misdemeanor if the violation results in bodily injury.





© If conduct constituting an offense under this section also constitutes an offense under another section of this code or the Penal Code, the actor may be prosecuted under either section or under both sections.





(d) In this section, "tow truck" means a vehicle that:





(1) has been issued a permit under Subchapter C, Chapter 2308, Occupations Code; and





(2) is operated by a person licensed under Subchapter D, Chapter 2308, Occupations Code.

 

[HILO]

Yeah, what K9Vic said...

 

[Skip Goulet]

Yeah, what K9Vic said...

No....you didn't say anything about it being illegal for vollies to use blue. You just showed the statute where it is illegal for others to use that or any other color.

 

[HILO]

No....you didn't say anything about it being illegal for vollies to use blue. You just showed the statute where it is illegal for others to use that or any other color.

Correct. I have never said that it is illegal for Texas VFFs to use blue. I know very well what is legal equipment for VFF's. My dad is a VFF, and I do the set up and installing on both his vehicles.


What you are confused about, and thus wrong about, is in this statement that you posted. "Just considering the topic of amber lights, which started this thread, amber lights alone on any sort of vehicle are not illegal in Texas. Neither is blue alone." Blue alone or in any combination is indeed illegal on any vehicle that is not an EV, TX Dot or contracted), or private funeral escort. The only colors that are not illegal on any vehicle are amber and green. Purple, while not listed, has been ruled illegal in various courts over the years, viewed as a combination of red and blue. Now, amber and green are subject to use. If some one is driving down the road with amber or green lights flashing and trying to get ROW or otherwise causing a distraction towards other motorists, that individual can be cited for unauthorized use of emergency equpiment, just like flashing ones high beams, driving with hazard signals on, or honking the horn, in situations not warranted.

 

[Skip Goulet]

Correct. I have never said that it is illegal for Texas VFFs to use blue. I know very well what is legal equipment for VFF's. My dad is a VFF, and I do the set up and installing on both his vehicles.

What you are confused about, and thus wrong about, is in this statement that you posted. "Just considering the topic of amber lights, which started this thread, amber lights alone on any sort of vehicle are not illegal in Texas. Neither is blue alone." Blue alone or in any combination is indeed illegal on any vehicle that is not an EV, TX Dot or contracted), or private funeral escort. The only colors that are not illegal on any vehicle are amber and green. Purple, while not listed, has been ruled illegal in various courts over the years, viewed as a combination of red and blue. Now, amber and green are subject to use. If some one is driving down the road with amber or green lights flashing and trying to get ROW or otherwise causing a distraction towards other motorists, that individual can be cited for unauthorized use of emergency equpiment, just like flashing ones high beams, driving with hazard signals on, or honking the horn, in situations not warranted.

I think we need to get past the legalities and look at more what these lights are being used for and by whom. I found it interesting that some court had ruled purple as illegal. I think I may have mentioned somewhere above that one of the wrecker services in Odessa runs purple light bars. Wreckers in Texas have always been allowed to use red lights. And in some places I've seen wreckers with sirens as well. I've never seen what the state actually says about that, but I'm sure you know where to look. When I was a kid, wreckers were considered emergency vehicles. This was in the days looooong before fire depts had JAWS. I have a DVD of news footage taken in Corpus Christi by one of the TV stations from 1962-1972. The footage shows all sorts of bad wrecks that occured during that time period in Corpus and Nueces County, and since you've grown up with things like proper C-Spine immobilization and proper extrication, some of the footage would send chills up and down your spine. Like a bad wreck with intrapment where the wrecker backs up to the car and latches on to it and uses its hooks to try to get a door open. Just watching how badly the car is shaken around with people inside makes you wonder if anyone survived at all! What damage the initial wreck didn't do, the wrecker damn sure did! The one wrecker service here that did 99% of the police calls had reds and sirens. My dad drove a wrecker on weekends when I was about 6 (don't even try to imagine that far back), and I remember the wrecker having a big old firetruck siren on the left fender. The owner was an ex-cop, and he used the siren going to bad wrecks, but my dad only used it if the cops told him to hurry it up.


During the years that I was in Lubbock (1968-1991), I only saw amber on the wreckers, and I understand that was per a city ordinance. But last time I was up there a couple of months ago I noticed at least one wrecker with red/blue.