Good lights ruined by split flash

Aug 1, 2011
608
Ballston Spa NY USA
to split? or not to split? that is the question..


honestly, splitting doesnt make a difference one way or another. if its flashing and people can see it then its working. thats all people are gonna notice. they aint gonna care one way or another about split fail or split color lights. all they're gonna care about is getting out of your way.
 

Travelin Man

Member
Jul 9, 2010
295
Central Virginia
Is there ANYONE on the board who sees the benefit in using any of the non-solid flashing patterns?


We have a number of fire/EMS agencies in my area who use split red/white Whelen products and they work remarkably well (at least in my opinion). Heck, even the state police has gone to synced blue/white splits in the grill.


A couple of the large FD's in the area have ditched lightbars in favor of either 5 or 7 M9's on the front of the box, including 2 set to the "dreaded" pinwheel pattern. Once again, I have yet to see what the fuss is, they appear to work fairly well in conjunction with the rest of the large lightheads.


Interested in hearing people's thoughts...
 

7d9_z28

New Member
Mar 15, 2012
3,048
West Michigan
Well, as per the million discussions on here about it, usually the problem is the colors blur together.


I however have split Amber/White LIN4 under my front turn signals and have them on a pattern that doesn't blob them together. I like the split heads, but solids are just more effective.
 
Split light heads can work depending on what light head is used, flash pattern, and if its in conjunction with other light heads.


For one agencies, I used Brooking MS6 red/blue's in the thin section between the grills and Par36 in the fog light housing. The par36 light heads were solid colors. Red drivers side, and blue passenger side. Synced them all together in a slow back and forth pattern with the reds alternating with the blues. Came out real nice and with the Par36 light heads they gave a nice spread of warning on the front. However had I not used the Par36 lights, solid color MS6 light heads would have been more effective.


I have to say i was pretty surprised how bright the MS6 was even in split color. Defiantly more effective than a most other light heads in split color.
 

Travelin Man

Member
Jul 9, 2010
295
Central Virginia
Solvarex said:
Any pattern is effective when you're standing in front of the vehicle.

Take a step back some 300 meters or so and look again.

I completely agree with this statement. I never judge the effectiveness of a bar or lighthead from closer than 50'. It's just a false sense of it's effectiveness.


Group's opinion: Is the rig in the following video a split-fail or effective? Feb 8, 2013 9:21am | Facebook
 

bfd740

Member
Jul 4, 2010
285
Babylon, NY
It depends on the lights, colors, and patterns.


M9 flashing red and blue side to side = WIN


Whelen 900 flashing the same color top and bottom = FAIL


Look at this video, it is a perfect example. All of the rear lights are the same, however the amber's on the top flashing in/out are a FAIL while the red/whites on the bottom are a WIN.

 

NJEMT

Member
May 22, 2010
377
Essex County, NJ
My ambulance has 700 series lights above the front and rear wheel well, both split, the front split red white, and the rear split red amber. Both split side to side.
 

Solvarex

Member
Jun 2, 2010
561
Canada
bfd740 said:
Look at this video, it is a perfect example. All of the rear lights are the same, however the amber's on the top flashing in/out are a FAIL while the red/whites on the bottom are a WIN.
It's all a fail. The eye determines a light is flashing by comparing the difference between when it is on and when it is off. When you alternate a lamp with no discernible off time the eye has a hard time seeing the color shift. Furthermore the mishmash of color on that rig is atrocious. "At nahht tahm, peepla gunna muuve..." I wouldn't be surprised if they just jammed on the brakes out of sheer confusion.


Split lightheads are a failure any way you look at them. You are halving the effectiveness of the light by having only 50% of the available LEDs illuminated at any one time. A full 100% of ONE color will always show a better signal, period.
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
chrismartin1701 said:
to split? or not to split? that is the question..

honestly, splitting doesnt make a difference one way or another. if its flashing and people can see it then its working. thats all people are gonna notice. they aint gonna care one way or another about split fail or split color lights. all they're gonna care about is getting out of your way.


We are talking about effective warning. Splitting a light can cause all sorts of problems. There is a thread about it.


Just because it is flashing doesn't mean it is effective warning. I started this site to counteract the "if it blinks it's effective" misconception.


Splitting a light does make a difference...... just because it's on doesn't mean people can see it........just because they see it doesn't make it effective.....


There are so many things wrong with your post. It's like a parade of failed logic........ or trolling.
 
Aug 1, 2011
608
Ballston Spa NY USA
JohnMarcson said:
We are talking about effective warning. Splitting a light can cause all sorts of problems. There is a thread about it.


Just because it is flashing doesn't mean it is effective warning. I started this site to counteract the "if it blinks it's effective" misconception.


Splitting a light does make a difference...... just because it's on doesn't mean people can see it........just because they see it doesn't make it effective.....


There are so many things wrong with your post. It's like a parade of failed logic........ or trolling.

uumm.... ok....... whatever works i guess. doesnt matter to me one way or another. i dont see it as failed logic. i just dont get anal about "split fail" like most people would. its just not that big of a deal to me. i wire/plug in my LED's, set it to a pattern i like, sync and let it/them be. but then again, it is what it is so to speak
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
chrismartin1701 said:
uumm.... ok....... whatever works i guess. doesnt matter to me one way or another. i dont see it as failed logic. i just dont get anal about "split fail" like most people would. its just not that big of a deal to me. i wire/plug in my LED's, set it to a pattern i like, sync and let it/them be. but then again, it is what it is so to speak

Split lights aren't necessarily ineffective. They are just half the size the light was intended to be and so close together that many more patterns and setups fail than with the same lights solid. Splitting lights doesn't always ruin them, but it almost never improves them.


Why are you surprised that people who use warning lights to get to emergency scenes are "anal" about how they work?


Out of curiosity what is your experience level with "wiring synching and forgetting"? How many lights have you installed, spec ed, setup etc?


Since I have some free time, I will help you see why your previous post is an example of flawed logic, among other things.

chrismartin1701 said:
honestly, splitting doesnt make a difference one way or another.
Plain wrong. Changing the foot print of the light matters. You are turning one big light into two little ones flush against each other. Of course that matters. It doesn't always make it unusable, but it rarely if ever helps.

chrismartin1701 said:
if its flashing and people can see it then its working.
Also just plain wrong. Try reading the site before posting on it. You can mash 10 900 series super LEDs next to each other and setup poorly they will be visible but totally ineffective as warning.

chrismartin1701 said:
thats all people are gonna notice.
What are you basing "what people notice" on? There are plenty of resources both on and off this site about how the human eye detects color, light etc. The fact is certain patterns and color combos are just not perceived as warning, but rather a blur. Enducate yourself before trying to tell people what humans notice.

chrismartin1701 said:
they aint gonna care one way or another about split fail or split color lights.
This is the main logic fail. You seem to equate the public caring with effective warning. The average person doesn't care about the lights on a vehicle at all, let alone what pattern they are. You made the mistake of trying to make public opinion synonymous with effective traffic clearing. People caring about the setup is irrelevant, people seeing it and identifying it as warning is what matters.

chrismartin1701 said:
all they're gonna care about is getting out of your way.
Which they won't be doing if they can't see you or don't know you are an emergency vehicle because of ineffectively setup lights.


http://elightbars.org/forums/f13/good-lights-ruined-split-flash-8530/
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
Solvarex said:
It's all a fail. The eye determines a light is flashing by comparing the difference between when it is on and when it is off. When you alternate a lamp with no discernible off time the eye has a hard time seeing the color shift. Furthermore the mishmash of color on that rig is atrocious. "At nahht tahm, peepla gunna muuve..." I wouldn't be surprised if they just jammed on the brakes out of sheer confusion.

Split lightheads are a failure any way you look at them. You are halving the effectiveness of the light by having only 50% of the available LEDs illuminated at any one time. A full 100% of ONE color will always show a better signal, period.

At their very best (adequate off time etc)... split lightheads are simply 1/2 the size they were supposed to be. At their worst they are totally ineffective to the point of being dangerous.


Every few weeks another thread pops up about how split light heads are usable or can be ok. That's true. They aren't always a total failure. They are never going to be more noticeable than the same light solid. So people are essentially bragging about making their state of the art LEDs slightly less effective (at best).


You can't make a lighthead more effective by splitting it. Your options are slightly less effective or worthless... so all of the debates are basically about how much worse splitting a light makes it... not if it makes it worse, how much it makes it worse.
 
Aug 1, 2011
608
Ballston Spa NY USA
JohnMarcson said:
Split lights aren't necessarily ineffective. They are just half the size the light was intended to be and so close together that many more patterns and setups fail than with the same lights solid. Splitting lights doesn't always ruin them, but it almost never improves them.

Why are you surprised that people who use warning lights to get to emergency scenes are "anal" about how they work?


Out of curiosity what is your experience level with "wiring synching and forgetting"? How many lights have you installed, spec ed, setup etc?


Since I have some free time, I will help you see why your previous post is an example of flawed logic, among other things.


Plain wrong. Changing the foot print of the light matters. You are turning one big light into two little ones flush against each other. Of course that matters. It doesn't always make it unusable, but it rarely if ever helps.


Also just plain wrong. Try reading the site before posting on it. You can mash 10 900 series super LEDs next to each other and setup poorly they will be visible but totally ineffective as warning.


What are you basing "what people notice" on? There are plenty of resources both on and off this site about how the human eye detects color, light etc. The fact is certain patterns and color combos are just not perceived as warning, but rather a blur. Enducate yourself before trying to tell people what humans notice.


This is the main logic fail. You seem to equate the public caring with effective warning. The average person doesn't care about the lights on a vehicle at all, let alone what pattern they are. You made the mistake of trying to make public opinion synonymous with effective traffic clearing. People caring about the setup is irrelevant, people seeing it and identifying it as warning is what matters.


Which they won't be doing if they can't see you or don't know you are an emergency vehicle because of ineffectively setup lights.


http://elightbars.org/forums/f13/good-lights-ruined-split-flash-8530/

i have installed/assisted installing LED heads for my car, my dads 2 trucks, my stations Argo and another dept chiefs POV. granted the Argo has TIR3's on it but regardless. around my area, people will notice them whether they are split or not so for my area it is in fact effective. you see it as flawed logic, i see it as i dont care and neither does anyone else i know. you have 2 TIR4's, both on a split pattern alternating. its still 4 leds flashing at once regardless. i had them set that way on my car for a while and people noticed them and moved over just as well as they do with my current setup of a LED mini bar. with TIR and linear style, they look just as bright split as they do as a whole. now with the 5mm style then yes, splitting them would make them less effective. but it really is more dependent on the area. with my area, people will move for any flashing light if its red, blue and even sometimes green. my chief. he has a E series van with 4 SnM TIR4 led heads in his grill in R/B and all in a split flashing, random pattern, non sync setup. he has no siren either. also has a 6 strobe HAW also on a random pattern. his setup can part traffic like the red sea. that would also be considered on here as split/sync fail but they do their job just fine as they are. but as i said it really depends on the area. my area is a small rural area. makes things pretty easy because as i said previously they move for pretty much everything. there are even some around here that run R/A or B/A with white to the front and people still move. you could have the worst possible setup around here and people will still move and you would still be noticed. so when i say that splitting or not doesnt matter, im speaking from personal experience based on what i have seen in my own area and parts of others.
 

NYBLS

Member
Oct 13, 2010
219
NY,USA
chrismartin1701 said:
i have installed/assisted installing LED heads for my car, my dads 2 trucks, my stations Argo and another dept chiefs POV. granted the Argo has TIR3's on it but regardless. around my area, people will notice them whether they are split or not so for my area it is in fact effective. you see it as flawed logic, i see it as i dont care and neither does anyone else i know. you have 2 TIR4's, both on a split pattern alternating. its still 4 leds flashing at once regardless. i had them set that way on my car for a while and people noticed them and moved over just as well as they do with my current setup of a LED mini bar. with TIR and linear style, they look just as bright split as they do as a whole. now with the 5mm style then yes, splitting them would make them less effective. but it really is more dependent on the area. with my area, people will move for any flashing light if its red, blue and even sometimes green. my chief. he has a E series van with 4 SnM TIR4 led heads in his grill in R/B and all in a split flashing, random pattern, non sync setup. he has no siren either. also has a 6 strobe HAW also on a random pattern. his setup can part traffic like the red sea. that would also be considered on here as split/sync fail but they do their job just fine as they are. but as i said it really depends on the area. my area is a small rural area. makes things pretty easy because as i said previously they move for pretty much everything. there are even some around here that run R/A or B/A with white to the front and people still move. you could have the worst possible setup around here and people will still move and you would still be noticed. so when i say that splitting or not doesnt matter, im speaking from personal experience based on what i have seen in my own area and parts of others.


Sweet Jesus man, if you are going to argue a point at least try to make yourself sound intelligent. Paragraphs and some basic sentence structure will go a long way.
 

acala91

Member
Oct 15, 2010
1,662
FL
chrismartin1701 said:
i have installed/assisted installing LED heads for my car, my dads 2 trucks, my stations Argo and another dept chiefs POV. granted the Argo has TIR3's on it but regardless. around my area, people will notice them whether they are split or not so for my area it is in fact effective. you see it as flawed logic, i see it as i dont care and neither does anyone else i know. you have 2 TIR4's, both on a split pattern alternating. its still 4 leds flashing at once regardless. i had them set that way on my car for a while and people noticed them and moved over just as well as they do with my current setup of a LED mini bar. with TIR and linear style, they look just as bright split as they do as a whole. now with the 5mm style then yes, splitting them would make them less effective. but it really is more dependent on the area. with my area, people will move for any flashing light if its red, blue and even sometimes green. my chief. he has a E series van with 4 SnM TIR4 led heads in his grill in R/B and all in a split flashing, random pattern, non sync setup. he has no siren either. also has a 6 strobe HAW also on a random pattern. his setup can part traffic like the red sea. that would also be considered on here as split/sync fail but they do their job just fine as they are. but as i said it really depends on the area. my area is a small rural area. makes things pretty easy because as i said previously they move for pretty much everything. there are even some around here that run R/A or B/A with white to the front and people still move. you could have the worst possible setup around here and people will still move and you would still be noticed. so when i say that splitting or not doesnt matter, im speaking from personal experience based on what i have seen in my own area and parts of others.

It's obvious that you and your friends know nothing about emergency lighting and people like you are the ones we laugh about on this forum. By your thought, this wrecker setup must be the best thing ever.

 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
Here are the two sentences in you post that stood out to me the most.

chrismartin1701 said:
when i say that splitting or not doesnt matter, im speaking from personal experience based on what i have seen in my own area and parts of others. you could have the worst possible setup around here and people will still move and you would still be noticed. .
 
Aug 1, 2011
608
Ballston Spa NY USA
acala91 said:
It's obvious that you and your friends know nothing about emergency lighting and people like you are the ones we laugh about on this forum. By your thought, this wrecker setup must be the best thing ever.



it WORKS. and thats all we really care about. personally your attitude about this is really leaving a bad taste in my mouth. so you say that "we dont know how to properly set up lights" or think that "oh look. their lights are not synced and are split. they must be retards" is really a childish attitude. who the hell are you to judge a person based on preference to emergency lighting? seriously. smarten up.
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
Sonofagun.... Chris... I forgot me, you and your father all agreed about how you participation would work. We need to stop this little exchange. No further good will come of this little back and forth. Moving on.
 

acala91

Member
Oct 15, 2010
1,662
FL
chrismartin1701 said:
the tow truck has way too many lights for what its gotta do but yes it is still effective. we all know a lot about emergency lighting. just because we have our own personal preference doesnt mean we are uneducated. that right there is an uneducated assumption from you.

it WORKS. and thats all we really care about. personally your attitude about this is really leaving a bad taste in my mouth. so you say that "we dont know how to properly set up lights" or think that "oh look. their lights are not synced and are split. they must be retards" is really a childish attitude. who the hell are you to judge a person based on preference to emergency lighting? seriously. smarten up.

:duh: :hopeless:


This is a lost cause. You obviously have your head too far up your ass to possibly absorb any of the good advice that has been posted thus far. Your first few posts suggested you knew little about emergency lighting, but the fact that you continue to argue with people who do know what they are talking about removes all doubt.
 
Aug 1, 2011
608
Ballston Spa NY USA
acala91 said:
:duh: :hopeless:

This is a lost cause. You obviously have your head too far up your ass to possibly absorb any of the good advice that has been posted thus far. Your first few posts suggested you knew little about emergency lighting, but the fact that you continue to argue with people who do know what they are talking about removes all doubt.

:rolleyes: whatever. you do things your way and we'll do things our way. and thats where im gonna leave it
 

bfd740

Member
Jul 4, 2010
285
Babylon, NY
I still think it depends on the application. A large light like the 900/M9 split on two contrasting colors with synced pattern is effective. A small light like a LIN4 split with the same colors on a fast pattern is an ineffective blur.


Also, you can't compare split TIR6's to solid 700's. If you want to compare something, compare 2 split IONS each with contrasting colors to 4 TIR3's.


Larger lights if done properly have halves that still have large footprints. If the half is still a large light, what is the problem? As long as the patterns don't make it look like the Pink Floyd laser light show it is still effective imo.


That being said, pinwheel sucks, in/out sucks, and small split heads suck no matter how you look at it.
 

Jamey@NNE

Member
Jun 23, 2011
1,661
Ocoee, Florida
bfd740 said:
I still think it depends on the application. A large light like the 900/M9 split on two contrasting colors with synced pattern is effective. A small light like a LIN4 split with the same colors on a fast pattern is an ineffective blur.

Also, you can't compare split TIR6's to solid 700's. If you want to compare something, compare 2 split IONS each with contrasting colors to 4 TIR3's.


Larger lights if done properly have halves that still have large footprints. If the half is still a large light, what is the problem? As long as the patterns don't make it look like the Pink Floyd laser light show it is still effective imo.


That being said, pinwheel sucks, in/out sucks, and small split heads suck no matter how you look at it.

The way I agree with this is look at lightbars, a half red half blue lightbar is effective split half and half due to size, I agree same with a 900 series or simallar large light.
 

Travelin Man

Member
Jul 9, 2010
295
Central Virginia
Discussion:


Hypothetically, let's say a customer wants red/white intersectors on thier fire engine. Do you supply them with a red M7 over a white M7, or simply a M9 split red/white? Why or why not, and what's the difference between them in your opinion?


(Yes, I already know stacking the M7's would be foolish, I was just trying to make a point).
 

foxtrot5

New Member
Sep 26, 2011
3,002
Charleston Area, SC, US
Having come from "wow that pinwheel pattern sure looks cool" to "wow that pinwheel pattern really sucks at more than 10 feet away" I feel as if people have to learn certain things on their own. That being said, I also think that there is enough documentation on this forum to prove exactly what John has said multiple times, splitting light heads at best only moderately reduces their effectiveness and at worst renders the useless.


Now, being familiar with your history on this site and how you feel when it comes to your personal beliefs, nothing is going to change your mind except a few weeks of soul searching. I'd like to point out that now might be a good time to step back and take a deep breath, before you or someone else escalates this discussion to another massive blow up on the part of you and others.
 

Travelin Man

Member
Jul 9, 2010
295
Central Virginia
foxtrot5 said:
Now, being familiar with your history on this site and how you feel when it comes to your personal beliefs, nothing is going to change your mind except a few weeks of soul searching. I'd like to point out that now might be a good time to step back and take a deep breath, before you or someone else escalates this discussion to another massive blow up on the part of you and others.

Not sure if this was directed at me or not, but if it was, I'm not quite sure what you're implying. I simply enjoy good, civil discussion and even disagreements at times. I believe that they're a great way to learn new ideas.
 

foxtrot5

New Member
Sep 26, 2011
3,002
Charleston Area, SC, US
Travelin Man said:
Not sure if this was directed at me or not, but if it was, I'm not quite sure what you're implying. I simply enjoy good, civil discussion and even disagreements at times. I believe that they're a great way to learn new ideas.

Wasn't directed at anyone other than chrismartin1701. I don't remember who the other partied involved in the last erm... debate were (other than chrismartin1701 and then his father) so I can't call anyone out.


At best you could possibly take it under general purpose statments directed at a wide spectrum of people on the board.
 

bfd740

Member
Jul 4, 2010
285
Babylon, NY
Travelin Man said:
Discussion:

Hypothetically, let's say a customer wants red/white intersectors on thier fire engine. Do you supply them with a red M7 over a white M7, or simply a M9 split red/white? Why or why not, and what's the difference between them in your opinion?


(Yes, I already know stacking the M7's would be foolish, I was just trying to make a point).


That's exactly part of what I was saying. 2 split IONS or 4 TIR3's. It all depends on the application and the implementation. the 700 IMO is a very effective light split when they are two different colors. If you had to choose between 2 700's or 4 TIR3's common sense should say the 700's because the footprint of each half is still larger than each TIR3 would be.


If you're putting 700's on the side of a fire truck, they should be solid because you want the larger footprint in that application. However if you put them behind your grille a split is OK because each half is still larger than many other lights that would fit in the same place. That's the point I was making.


I'm not looking to start a fight, and there's far too many times I look at a setup with split fail, even with large lights like 900's, and say to myself "that's horrible." However there are also applications where splits make sense, look good, and are very effective. The same argument can be made for sync-fail. Sometimes it looks OK and sometimes it looks like crap.
 

zakovermyer

Member
Jan 29, 2013
25
Illinois
With the split flash effectiveness, I think this video speaks for itself.


On the corners of the box they have an X pattern, below that on the rear are solid flash. The solid flash is clearly seen much more effectively than the X lights.
 

PJD642

New Member
May 20, 2010
1,543
east of Cleveland
zakovermyer said:
With the split flash effectiveness, I think this video speaks for itself.



That is just about the PERFECT example of how solid is better than split...especially on the rear. Little twinkles on top rear, solid, noticeable heads further down.
 

Dr Ferran

Member
Feb 26, 2011
16
Poland
Example from Poland. In front area this ambulance has got two Code3 XT4 lights. From a distance it looks like stedy burn, not flashing mode. In my opinion this less effective.

 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
Dr Ferran said:
Example from Poland. In front area this ambulance has got two Code3 XT4 lights. From a distance it looks like stedy burn, not flashing mode. In my opinion this less effective.

Good examples. Steady burn blue should catch on in Poland anyway. ;)
 

bct500

Member
Aug 25, 2012
32
Poland, Central Europe
This is AS-380 siren. It's made by Federal Signal Vama. This is full 100W or 200W siren. Includes 4 tones: FAST WAIL(400 cycle/min), WAIL(12 cycle/min), YELP(180 cycle/min) and HILO(33 cycle/min) and AIRHORN of course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHJKc6om6_M


It runs mainly with one AS124 speaker or one Dynamax. In Poland this is the most popular siren in ambulances. It's very effective to move traffic (especially fast wail and airhorn).
 

irsa76

Member
May 24, 2010
342
Australia, NSW
Saw a classic comparison between split fail and solid heads the other day. The local roads authority has a few pickups with small amber light heads, not sure of the brand but similar size to a LIN6, in the grille and either side of the rear plate. Saw 2 working together and one had a fast split pattern while the other had a random, and unsynced, solid pattern. The solid flash was alot more effective, the split was visible but so were the headlights, which weren't flashing.
 

ddemlong

Member
Feb 1, 2013
29
Phoenix, AZ
acala91 said:
It's obvious that you and your friends know nothing about emergency lighting and people like you are the ones we laugh about on this forum. By your thought, this wrecker setup must be the best thing ever.



I have to hand it to ya not to knock anyone but that is a perfect comparison reguarding you two's discussion. That tow truck isn't distinct and looking at it just feels like a siezure in setting in. The pattern switching is too fast and they strobe too much. It doesn't feel like you are fulling taking it in before it switches.


The fire patterns although slower, allow for a much more distinct color and recognition. Although a double/ quad flash can grab attention a bit better than just a solid (like the fire's rear) there is a limit.


I was standing behind county the other day, I am not 100% which bar they were use, I will search a bit then post. However the rear red/yel/blue were strobing so fast I could not stand to look at it, literally. It was just a blur and hurt my eyes. This was from maybe 100 feet away. I always thought our cars with our C3 excaliburs where not fast enough for attention grabbing at times up close. This may just be the lack of actual lights being its just 2 rotators with mirors subbed for the 2nd rotator in each color sibstituted with a TIR style 12 LED module on each side and a red steady in the center.


Although slow, you can see it at the point the curvature of the earth takes effect. I mainly bought my Viper S2 for close encounteres where a small speed buff wouldnt hurt.


Update:


Tomar 970


-proably could have adjusted a car's timing belt with it. :D
 
Last edited by a moderator:

bfd740

Member
Jul 4, 2010
285
Babylon, NY
Flo said:
Twinkle twinkle little star...


That's absolutely horrible. The grille lights besides being completely useless, look lopsided because of the placement of the whites. I HATE the sync on the lightbar, and the M7's on the back doors look stupid. A HLF would have been better than the LAWs in the front, and a mini bar or stick would have been better on the back of the roof than the M7's on the doors. The whole thing looks poorly planned.
 

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