I'm about to be installing the first Q for my department and I've got a question. I've got a good basic understanding of vehicle wiring and I'm familiar with using relays and silinoids. My question is this how should I go about fusing the whole thing? I would think a circuit breaker but I've never actually looked at how one is wired. And how many amps would it need to break at? I've read they run at 100 but can pull around 200 on startup. So I figured I'd ask the experts.
Another Q wiring question
- Thread starter NC Firefighter
- Start date
dcb
Member
I'd suggest +12VDC using minimum 4-ga, but you can use something smaller like 10-ga for the brake.
The manual recomends a 15-amp fuse for the brake and a monster 300-amp fuse for the foot switch:
http://www.fedsig.com/products/docs/install/256A768.pdf , pg 4
Disclaimer: I've never installed a new one before, but have repaired a few and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express the other nite.
Cheers!
/dcb
The manual recomends a 15-amp fuse for the brake and a monster 300-amp fuse for the foot switch:
http://www.fedsig.com/products/docs/install/256A768.pdf , pg 4
Disclaimer: I've never installed a new one before, but have repaired a few and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express the other nite.
Cheers!
/dcb
SurfCityCar2
Member
We just intalled a Q2B on one of our existing pumpers. The main thing to remember is the wiring sizes.
From the battery to the line lug on the solenoid is 4ga battery cable, as well as from the load side of the solenoid to the main lug on the Q2B.
For the brake, we ran 10ga wire with a smaller solenoid controlling that.
We fused the main power line feeding the line side of the solenoid with a 200 amp non-self resetting circuit breaker and haven't had any problems with it, since all of my guys LOVE to "ride the Q" all the way to the call.
The main power feeding the brake circuit is fused for 20 amps, just to include some breathing room...
Make sure the solenoid you get the main power for the Q is rated for continuous duty and lots of amps.
Federal Signal had a wiring kit available through their dealers, as that is where we got the breaker, solenoid and switches from...
From the battery to the line lug on the solenoid is 4ga battery cable, as well as from the load side of the solenoid to the main lug on the Q2B.
For the brake, we ran 10ga wire with a smaller solenoid controlling that.
We fused the main power line feeding the line side of the solenoid with a 200 amp non-self resetting circuit breaker and haven't had any problems with it, since all of my guys LOVE to "ride the Q" all the way to the call.
The main power feeding the brake circuit is fused for 20 amps, just to include some breathing room...
Make sure the solenoid you get the main power for the Q is rated for continuous duty and lots of amps.
Federal Signal had a wiring kit available through their dealers, as that is where we got the breaker, solenoid and switches from...
Wow good info guys. I had looked at the install sheet for it but I didn't notice the 300 amp fuse, but after looking closer I found it in the diagram. I have found and ordered the factory wiring kit and it sounds like it should have everything but the solenoid and the cable. I can get the cable here in town but the biggest cont. duty solenoid I've found anywhere, including online, is 85 amps. If anybody could give me an idea where to get one that'd be great.
When high current automotive switching comes to mind, so should Cole Hersee. You may want to get a Cole Hersee 24143, which is a 200 amp 12 volt continuous duty solenoid.
It's on the top of page 2 in this PDF of their catalog: http://www.colehersee.com/pdf/master_cat/e_solenoid.PDF
It's on the top of page 2 in this PDF of their catalog: http://www.colehersee.com/pdf/master_cat/e_solenoid.PDF
Henry455
Member
You might want to contact Cole Hersee regarding this relay, what has me concerned is the statement "200A carry only", the specs say nothing about the make and break amp ratings as do all their other relays.
Specifications
Special Applications High current. Utility vehicles, winches, lift trucks, snow plows etc.
Insulated/Grounded Insulated
NO/NC normally open
Min Qty No
Circuitry SPST
Contacts silver
Housing plated steel
Voltage Rating 12V
Terminals copper; 10-32 thread and 5/16"-24 thread. Hex nuts and lock washers included
Continuous Rating 200A carry only
Intermittent Time Not applicable: continuous
Bracket Straight
Bracket Mounting Holes 5/16" x 19/32", 2-13/64" on center
Breather Hole no
UL Marine & CE ISO 8846 Marine Not listed
Specifications
Special Applications High current. Utility vehicles, winches, lift trucks, snow plows etc.
Insulated/Grounded Insulated
NO/NC normally open
Min Qty No
Circuitry SPST
Contacts silver
Housing plated steel
Voltage Rating 12V
Terminals copper; 10-32 thread and 5/16"-24 thread. Hex nuts and lock washers included
Continuous Rating 200A carry only
Intermittent Time Not applicable: continuous
Bracket Straight
Bracket Mounting Holes 5/16" x 19/32", 2-13/64" on center
Breather Hole no
UL Marine & CE ISO 8846 Marine Not listed
Well I've looked over the wiring kit install sheet again and it looks like it indeed does not come with a relay or solenoid of any kind, at least from the one I found online. Does anybody know what apparatus use from the factory to run the Q? I don't have easy access to one or I'd just go look. Also what seems to be the issue with just a simple starter relay from the parts store? I would think that it would be fine since the Q siren is fairly intermittent current with the winding up and coasting. They all seem to be rated for 750 amps make and at least 100 carry. I'm not trying to be smarter than the rest or anything, just thinking out loud here trying to figure this out. I'm used to dealing with much lighter loads of around 40 amps or less with lights and such.
Using a starter solenoid to operate a Q is a poor idea because of the way a Q is used. The usage pattern of a Q siren does not model that of an automobile starter at all. A starter relay is used once for just few seconds to start a vehicle, and usually has hours to cool off before it is called upon again to start the vehicle.
Think about your average response. Is it 5 minutes, 10 minutes, more? Is the Q wound up just once for the whole response. Probably not. It's probably wound up and let to coast at least a half a dozen times and probably more, depending on the time of day and the demographics of your response area. Just imagine how quickly your starter solenoid would go out if you had to use it to start the car at every intersection.
Everybody has heard someone who will "ride" the Q. This is especially bad for an intermittent duty solenoid like a starter solenoid. The solenoid never gets a break while someone is "riding" the Q, and can get very hot very quickly. Just imagine how quickly your starter solenoid would go out if you had to run the starter for your whole trip to the grocery store.
It is the nature of how a Q siren is used that indicates the need for a continuous duty solenoid.
Think about your average response. Is it 5 minutes, 10 minutes, more? Is the Q wound up just once for the whole response. Probably not. It's probably wound up and let to coast at least a half a dozen times and probably more, depending on the time of day and the demographics of your response area. Just imagine how quickly your starter solenoid would go out if you had to use it to start the car at every intersection.
Everybody has heard someone who will "ride" the Q. This is especially bad for an intermittent duty solenoid like a starter solenoid. The solenoid never gets a break while someone is "riding" the Q, and can get very hot very quickly. Just imagine how quickly your starter solenoid would go out if you had to run the starter for your whole trip to the grocery store.
It is the nature of how a Q siren is used that indicates the need for a continuous duty solenoid.
Henry455
Member
I have to respectively disagree with your statement. A continuous duty solenoid especially, one rated at 85 amps, is not made to make and break every 20-30 seconds with a 100- 200+ amp load (200+ inrush current), the contacts will not withstand the arcing after a while. A starter solenoid contacts are designed to take up to 700+ amps without serious contact erosion. I have had a Q for over 35 years and am still using the same starter relay to operate it. You can run the Q continuous for over a minute and the solenoid does not even get warm, I am pulling an average of a little over 100 amps through a solenoid rated for 750 amps, thus little or no heat is produced.
Henry455
Member
After doing a little searching I found a continuous duty 12 volt relay that will meets the demands of a large siren such as a Q that people may feel more comfortable with. 200 amps continuous, 900 amps make, 300 amps break. Reasonable cost of $44.50. Here are the specs: http://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/pdf/SAS_4202.pdf . This is the vendor: http://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/relays.asp
SurfCityCar2
Member
Cole Hersee is all I use for high current switching. Battery disconnects and solenoids from CH are great stuff.shues said:
We are running the very solenoid mentioned above for the mainline make/break for our Q and haven't had any problems for quite some time now.
CH makes a great solenoid for POV use, that is an 85 (IIRC) continuous duty solenoid. I have installed one in each of my POVs over the years and never had a problem.
As far as a dealer for Cole Hersee, any local shop that sells part for or works on heavy equipment or tractor-trailer trucks should be able to get their stuff. I happen to have Triple-T parts and service just down the road from me. They sell and service tractor-trailers and heavy trucks. Good prices too....
Does anybody have a Wiring Schmatic on wiring a Solonid to a Foot Switch to operate a model 28 Mechanical Siren? Thanks!
Phillyrube
Member
Henry455 said:
I used a plain old starter solenoid, and ran ran single wire to the foot pedals, so the switch grounded the circuit and closed the solenoid.
shues said:
Since somebody dug up an old thread...... I've never heard a Q in a constant "On" mode. You hit and release, hit and release, hit and release, sometimes holding for a few seconds trying to make it sing. It's the rising and falling tone at differing rates that commands attention like no other siren can. There were times when I could almost tell who was driving by the way they played the Q. Everybody does it different.
I hated when they came out with the brake. I can remember walking by a rig quite a while after it was parked and still hearing the Q winding down.
I think hes referring to people who put their foot on the pedal when they get in the truck and dont take it off until they get on scene. There are a few of them out there.
shues said:
I have to disagree with what you say. The old-style Ford solenoids have been used for motor sirens for many, many years. You don't want, nor do you need, a continuous duty solenoid to run a Q or any other motordriven siren. Many years ago I took one of our ambulances to a local auto electric co. that I had used in the past, to have a Q mounted and wired. The tech, who was relatively new, used a continuous duty solenoid, it ended up frying the brushes on the siren, and it cost his shop a bit of money for the Q repair and solenoid replacement.
If you have a shop or dealer around that sells and services golf carts, they can help you out. Golf carts (electric) use high current solenoids to power the drive motors.
I don't thing a solenoid caused the brushes in your siren to burn up. I think the guy with his foot standing on the button did.
I don't thing a solenoid caused the brushes in your siren to burn up. I think the guy with his foot standing on the button did.
theolog
Member
ryan81986 said:
Haha, more than a few, unfortunately! And they're all over YouTube. They make me wanna revoke their siren license after punching them in the throat.