Electronic "Mechanical" Siren's Birth

[DalmatProd]

As I slowly work to increase my small collection of collectibles, I was wondering if any of you might have a solid idea when any of the big electronic siren manufacturers first created the electronic version (or an attempt, thereof) of a manual, coaster/stator. I'm looking for this info to determine if, with its more likely higher price, I should think of seeking one for my collection.


Your knowledge and advice are welcome.


Best regards,


Steve


DalmatProd

 

[crescentstar69]

I can't specify a year, but most early electronic sirens from the 1960's mimicked coaster sirens with slow roll wail tones.

 

[lotsofbars]

The oldest I can find is this 1959 Federal Sign and Signal PA-1 siren. Very accurate representation of a mechanical siren in my opinion.

 

[DalmatProd]

The oldest I can find is this 1959 Federal Sign and Signal PA-1 siren. Very accurate representation of a mechanical siren in my opinion.

===================


CrescentStar69,


Thanks not only for your memories, but for the You-Tube example from that very early FS Siren. While I have to agree that the sound by this siren has the rolling up and down tones, I believe the purpose was to create a low-power (sic. low-amp draw) replacement for the coaster sirens of the day. Yet we know that sometime in our near past, the goal of companies such as, Federal Signal, Whelen, Carson, etc., was to electronically replicate as closely as modern day electronics allow, the sound of a coaster siren. Easily, the finger is pointed at Federal Signal, who named their version of the siren, the E2QB, where "E"=Electronic, engineered with its own dedicated amplifier, quickly followed by Whelen's and Carson's. It is this version that I'm attempting to research.


Again, many thanks for your contribution!


Steve

 

[shues]

Have a look at one of the much more realistic alternatives that was around well before the EQ2B:

 

[DalmatProd]

Have a look at one of the much more realistic alternatives that was around well before the EQ2B:

Shues,


Thanks for the reply and the video! That is the kind of information I'm looking for. The quick research I did this morning indicates that the Whelen spec sheet for this unit was copyright 2000.


So that begs the question, is the X-Ecutor the first true electronic representation of the unique sound of an electro-mechanical siren?


A great help, Shues! Many thanks!


Steve

 

[mistermeister]

IMHO the Fyr-Fyter Penetrator which debuted in 61/62 - because of its raspy tone and long wind-down in 'Manual' horn ring mode, which mimicked the coast of a mechanical ...

 

[pdk9]

I loveeeeee the old PA1 and the executor...they don't make them like they used to! Now, if only the eq2b sounded like those bad boys, or at least like the former Alpha 12Q (may you RIP)

 

[DalmatProd]

To Mistermeister and PDK9 - Thanks for your spot-on contributions. This information is very helpful, but now for the tough part: Does anyone have either a video of or an actual model of a Fyr-Fiter siren, the PA1, or PDK9's second mention? (The one her "blessed" with "RIP." I think many of us might like to see what these units look like and most definitely, hear what they sound like!





Thanks for those important contributions!





Steve

 

[shues]

You'll get your fill if you cruise Henry455's channel.

 

[pdk9]

To Mistermeister and PDK9 - Thanks for your spot-on contributions. This information is very helpful, but now for the tough part: Does anyone have either a video of or an actual model of a Fyr-Fiter siren, the PA1, or PDK9's second mention? (The one her "blessed" with "RIP." I think many of us might like to see what these units look like and most definitely, hear what they sound like!



Thanks for those important contributions!





Steve

Hey Steve,


This is an example of the whelen alpha 12 Q that one of our members hooked up to a smart siren. Basically, whelen made (IMHO) the best electronic, modern versions of a mechanical siren, BUT they had to stop production b/c a federal signal lawsuit said that it was a violation of their copyright. Although the eq2b has slowly grown on me over the past few years, to me, the eq2b still sounds like a dying cow next to the whelen electronic mechanical siren. You can find used alpha 12 Q's in the for-sale section but they don't come up everyday because their production was somewhat limited. However, as good as the alpha 12 Q is, the executor is still the electronic Q champ!


Whelen Alpha 12Q Siren Demo - YouTube

 

[DalmatProd]

To Shues and PDK9 - Thanks for your replies and demo's via those YouTube videos. I had not heard of the Fyr Fyter model before yesterday. But after comparing it to the Whelen, I've got to agree with you, PDK9. The Whelen sound comes closest to being the best representation of an purposefully-designed electronic version of a mechanical, coaster siren. IMHO, the Fyr Fyter was OK as an electronic version of a siren that follows the sine waves of a mechanical siren.


I've listened to the various coaster sirens of the past 25 years or so and for a purely electro-mechanical siren, I believe the Federal "Q" wins the contest. However, for an electronic siren that best represents the sounds of a mechanical siren, I would have to agree with you, PDK9 that the Alpha 12Q is the best.


Now, I'll keep my eyes out for one. Thanks to all for contributing to this thread and educating me!


Steve

 

[Skip Goulet]

Two of the nicer old electronic sirens that had slow wail rates with relatively long roll downs were the Vista Siren which was made in Kansas City, MO and the Sonic Siren, which was built in NJ by a division of Smith and Wesson. I've used both and have a Sonic that I got through this board a few months ago. Both of these had deep-throated sounds with long roll downs. Another good one was Sireno's Projector series...especially the original with the selector switch. It has a deep slow wail, but some of the ones I've seen, and the one I have had a very short rolldown, that "clipped" the sound off suddenly.


I've used both the Vista and Sonic on my ambulances in the past, and they move traffic better than a lot of the sirens I see now...consider that they were both "only" 100-watts. The hi-lo sound on the Sonic is very deep-throated and will rattle your brain. When coming to the ER in Lubbock, once we crossed 34th st., we'd kill the regular siren tones and just run the hi-lo the last 3/4 mi., and I'd see cars waaaay down the road pulling over.

 

[Henry455]

Do not forget the manual tone of the GE Power Call siren, although its best know for the Power Call Warble I think the manual tone is one of the best plus the manual explains how to fine tune it to your liking. In regards to modern sirens, the Alpha Q series sound good but the coast cuts off too soon, my choice is the Xecutor then the EQ.

 

[Skip Goulet]

Have a look at one of the much more realistic alternatives that was around well before the EQ2B:

Wow! That's the first XEcutor that I've heard that sounded right. I was surprised! The few I've heard were shrill and didn't have a good rise and fall.This one sounds every bit as good as the EQ2 I had.

 

[Skip Goulet]

Hey Steve,
This is an example of the whelen alpha 12 Q that one of our members hooked up to a smart siren. Basically, whelen made (IMHO) the best electronic, modern versions of a mechanical siren, BUT they had to stop production b/c a federal signal lawsuit said that it was a violation of their copyright. Although the eq2b has slowly grown on me over the past few years, to me, the eq2b still sounds like a dying cow next to the whelen electronic mechanical siren. You can find used alpha 12 Q's in the for-sale section but they don't come up everyday because their production was somewhat limited. However, as good as the alpha 12 Q is, the executor is still the electronic Q champ!


Whelen Alpha 12Q Siren Demo - YouTube

Very, very nice. I had an Alpha a few years ago, but the wail just didn't sound quite right, so I traded it to a fire chief friend. This may have been an early model that they hadn't gotten all the "bugs" out of. This one sounds great....and y'all know the critical ear I have for these things!

 

[Skip Goulet]

To Shues and PDK9 - Thanks for your replies and demo's via those YouTube videos. I had not heard of the Fyr Fyter model before yesterday. But after comparing it to the Whelen, I've got to agree with you, PDK9. The Whelen sound comes closest to being the best representation of an purposefully-designed electronic version of a mechanical, coaster siren. IMHO, the Fyr Fyter was OK as an electronic version of a siren that follows the sine waves of a mechanical siren.

I've listened to the various coaster sirens of the past 25 years or so and for a purely electro-mechanical siren, I believe the Federal "Q" wins the contest. However, for an electronic siren that best represents the sounds of a mechanical siren, I would have to agree with you, PDK9 that the Alpha 12Q is the best.


Now, I'll keep my eyes out for one. Thanks to all for contributing to this thread and educating me!


Steve

Have to argue you with a bit, Steve. While a Q is great, the B&M Super Chief's deep-throated roar will beat the Q at a distance. That low pitch has the carrying power and range. And it's one of the few sirens that's ever hurt my ears. I've ridden under literally dozens of Qs over the years and they never bothered me. I could ride with my window partially down. But the first time I ever rode with a Super Chief overhead......ouch! Kevin O'Connell who owns B&M makes his rounds at fire musters and shows, and puts his demo Super Chief up against a Q already mounted on a truck. Closeup the Q will drown out the Super Chief, but at 100' theSuper Chief wins every time. And Kevin is doing well selling them to depts that would've ordinarilly gone with a Q on their new apparatus.

 

[DalmatProd]

Very, very nice. I had an Alpha a few years ago, but the wail just didn't sound quite right, so I traded it to a fire chief friend. This may have been an early model that they hadn't gotten all the "bugs" out of. This one sounds great....and y'all know the critical ear I have for these things!

Skip,


I have to agree with you. PDK9's example of the Alpha has a clean, smooth sound and the mix using the Smart Siren doesn't cut any of that off. Being out of active service for nearly 25 years, plus only getting involved in ELB only since this past March when my truck was stolen, I had not heard of the Alpha prior to joining the posts here! But I have to say that I like it.


I spent some time last night on YouTube listening to numerous siren videos and it didn't take me long to separate the "gold" from the "coal!" Some were really very, very good, while others, were.....well, you know! That's what the Charmin is for!


Steve

 

[Skip Goulet]

Do not forget the manual tone of the GE Power Call siren, although its best know for the Power Call Warble I think the manual tone is one of the best plus the manual explains how to fine tune it to your liking. In regards to modern sirens, the Alpha Q series sound good but the coast cuts off too soon, my choice is the Xecutor then the EQ.

Another decent siren that was out there for many years that had a "tuneable" pitch was Heathkit's GD-18 electronic siren. These sirens were inexpensive and came in two forms: kit or assembled. While they were only 50-watts, they had a decent sound, and with a rear port you could "tweak" the pitch you wanted. What I liked was the very nice roll down from wail or manual. They sold for about $100 when they were being marketed. I see a few here and there for varying prices.

 

[DalmatProd]

Have to argue you with a bit, Steve. While a Q is great, the B&M Super Chief's deep-throated roar will beat the Q at a distance. That low pitch has the carrying power and range. And it's one of the few sirens that's ever hurt my ears. I've ridden under literally dozens of Qs over the years and they never bothered me. I could ride with my window partially down. But the first time I ever rode with a Super Chief overhead......ouch! Kevin O'Connell who owns B&M makes his rounds at fire musters and shows, and puts his demo Super Chief up against a Q already mounted on a truck. Closeup the Q will drown out the Super Chief, but at 100' theSuper Chief wins every time. And Kevin is doing well selling them to depts that would've ordinarilly gone with a Q on their new apparatus.

Skip,


I don't believe I've ever heard a Super Chief. Uh, let me put that another way, I may have heard it, however I may not have known it was a Super Chief. So, I will go searching for some audio files and report back. Fair enough?


Take care,


Steve

 

[Henry455]

Very, very nice. I had an Alpha a few years ago, but the wail just didn't sound quite right, so I traded it to a fire chief friend. This may have been an early model that they hadn't gotten all the "bugs" out of. This one sounds great....and y'all know the critical ear I have for these things!

Not sure if you were aware but the Alpha 12Q mechanical "Xecutor" tonal quaility could be modified using DIP switches 2 & 3.

 

[Henry455]

Wow! That's the first XEcutor that I've heard that sounded right. I was surprised! The few I've heard were shrill and didn't have a good rise and fall.This one sounds every bit as good as the EQ2 I had.

Skip, here is a good video that shows the Xecutor and EQ differences:

 

[Skip Goulet]

Skip, here is a good video that shows the Xecutor and EQ differences:

Both of those were electronics??? Wow! You would've fooled me. Tim, don't you have a demo on your YouTube page of a Super Chief that Steve could hear?

 

[Henry455]

Skip, I have a CS8B and a S8B but no Super Chief but here is a good SC demo:

 

[DalmatProd]

Both of those were electronics??? Wow! You would've fooled me. Tim, don't you have a demo on your YouTube page of a Super Chief that Steve could hear?

Well, guess what?? Id DID fool me! I thought I was hearing two different EM sirens!! That said, if the High Rise Unit was the one using the XEcutor, I could definitely hear the difference and would have to go with the XEcutor, hands down!


Steve

 

[DalmatProd]

Skip, I have a CS8B and a S8B but no Super Chief but here is a good SC demo:

Thanks, gentlemen. Now with this demo, I can definitely hear the difference in the wind-up between the SC and the Q. This SC has a deeper, more "throaty" tone as it draws its juice! Even as it climbs, (I doubt more than 1/4 of its way) to the peak of its sine wave, it has a strong push. I'm no electronics expert, but I believe that the lower, bass-like wind-up, if close enough to the vehicle in front of it, can provide the same low-level effect now artificially created with the FS and Wh's versions of the "rumblers."


Steve

 

[Skip Goulet]

Thanks, gentlemen. Now with this demo, I can definitely hear the difference in the wind-up between the SC and the Q. This SC has a deeper, more "throaty" tone as it draws its juice! Even as it climbs, (I doubt more than 1/4 of its way) to the peak of its sine wave, it has a strong push. I'm no electronics expert, but I believe that the lower, bass-like wind-up, if close enough to the vehicle in front of it, can provide the same low-level effect now artificially created with the FS and Wh's versions of the "rumblers."

Steve

I think you'd be right about the similarity between the S.C. the new "rumbler" sirens. One of the first times I ever heard a Super Chief was on a trip to Dallas/Ft. Worth with my mom and grandmother when I was about 15. We were heading back home and on the freeway coming through F.W. when I heard this vibration inside the car, and suddenly my mom looked in the mirror and pulled to the rt. I looked out and still a few blocks behind us was an ambulance approaching. I hadn't heard the siren, just the vibrations of the siren at that point. But it didn't take long to hear that deep-throaty roar of that siren. Like I said above, that's how Kevin sells so many of them.

 

[Torpedo]

I think you'd be right about the similarity between the S.C. the new "rumbler" sirens. One of the first times I ever heard a Super Chief was on a trip to Dallas/Ft. Worth with my mom and grandmother when I was about 15. We were heading back home and on the freeway coming through F.W. when I heard this vibration inside the car, and suddenly my mom looked in the mirror and pulled to the rt. I looked out and still a few blocks behind us was an ambulance approaching. I hadn't heard the siren, just the vibrations of the siren at that point. But it didn't take long to hear that deep-throaty roar of that siren. Like I said above, that's how Kevin sells so many of them.

Here's a video of the early G E Powercall Steve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4rQ-BcpK9A


And my Superchief wind rolls while driving...and I like it.

 

[Skip Goulet]

Here's a video of the early G E Powercall Steve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4rQ-BcpK9A


And my Superchief wind rolls while driving...and I like it.

It took you long enough to figure that one out, Dennis. That's why B&M went to those blasted spring-loaded brakes.....to prevent the wind coast! My now-retired vol. fire chief friend had a brakelessSuper Chief on his chief's car...a 1973 hightop Suburban ambulance. One time I stopped at his place when he was still chief in Seagraves, TX. He was gone for the moment, but in a minute I could hear that deep "flutter" of the Super Chief coming down the road, so I knew he was on his way. Oh, what a sound! :yes:

 

[CHIEFOPS]

The oldest I can find is this 1959 Federal Sign and Signal PA-1 siren. Very accurate representation of a mechanical siren in my opinion.

This clinches it for me- many people claim EMERGENCY!'s Engine 51 siren sound effect was a Q and I've always questioned that, instead believing it was some concoction created or altered by the Universal or Mark Vll Limited sound effects dept, it's my opinion after hearing this that this was the Engine's dubbed-in "mechanical" siren.

 

[DalmatProd]

Dennis, thank you so much for sharing the AV clip of the Power Call siren. It really helped understand what Skip and other people have been saying in this brand. Moreover, it gives me another target for my collection!





Thanks again,


Steve

 

[DalmatProd]

This clinches it for me- many people claim Engine 51's siren sound effect was a Q and I've always questioned that, instead believing it was some concoction created or altered by the Universal or Mark Vll Limited sound effects dept, it's my opinion after hearing this that this was the Engine's dubbed-in "mechanical" siren.

ChiefOps - I have to agree with you on this one! While even then, I knew the difference between the electronic sirens and the electro-mechanical, it appeared to me that Rescue 51 responded (except for a few episodes in Season 1) with a Federal electronic siren with the "wail" and "yelp" we're familiar with today, while Engine 51 responded with a conglomeration of any sound file the editor could grab and drop in on the edit! Sometimes it was electronic, while sometimes it was some version of an electro-mechanical, but NOT a "Q!"





Steve

 

[Skip Goulet]

This clinches it for me- many people claim EMERGENCY!'s Engine 51 siren sound effect was a Q and I've always questioned that, instead believing it was some concoction created or altered by the Universal or Mark Vll Limited sound effects dept, it's my opinion after hearing this that this was the Engine's dubbed-in "mechanical" siren.

According to Kevin O'Connell, owner of B&M Sirens, the dubbed-in mechanical siren sounds heard on the early Engine 51 were from a B&M S8B Siro-Drift siren. Of course, the Ward-LaFrance Engine 51 had a front-mounted Q.

 

[rofowacker]

I would agree that the Whelen eXcuter is hands down the best electronic alternative followed closely by the Alpha 12Q. Having both in different vehicles used in response I am constantly given comments on the Ex's sound! The first call I ran with it I pulled in to the station with the Chief and 4 guys all standing on the apron looking at me ( I came from the direction of the fire) They were all looking to see what engine was headed the wrong direction and had an awesome look of awe on their faces.


I will try and load videos of the differences up later.

 

[DalmatProd]

I, for one, will be looking forward to those videos. Sadly, the two states where I served in fire/rescue, NC and NY, did not allow sirens in volunteers' POV.


Steve

 

[Skip Goulet]

I, for one, will be looking forward to those videos. Sadly, the two states where I served in fire/rescue, NC and NY, did not allow sirens in volunteers' POV.

Steve

I see that quite a bit on this board, Steve, where volunteers aren't allowed sirens in their POVs. I guess because Texas has always allowed vollies to use lights and sirens. Used to be that you could get by running lights only, but due to some bad-assed wrecks here and there, Texas now requires volunteers to run lights and sirens both on emergency runs.


When I was on a volunteer dept in Lubbock County, a friend of mine on a neighboring dept ran only a magnetic "Kojak" light on his little Malibu wagon....honking his horn as his only audible device. I told him several times that he needed to get a siren or he'd get in a bad wreck and in a lot of trouble. He laughed at me...and sure enough he piled it up on a hot run. And he got in a lot of "hot water" for not having a siren.


The emergency mgt director who is also county fire chief/fire marshall wouldn't allow "his" volunteers to run sirens for a good long while; but with the changes that were made, they all have sirens now.

 

[CHIEFOPS]

According to Kevin O'Connell, owner of B&M Sirens, the dubbed-in mechanical siren sounds heard on the early Engine 51 were from a B&M S8B Siro-Drift siren. Of course, the Ward-LaFrance Engine 51 had a front-mounted Q.

I've been watching the entire series on DVD the last few weeks, and while it's obvious the Ward Pumper has a Q mounted on it, the dubbed-in siren is clearly not a Q and despite Mr. O'Connell's assertion, I'm dead positive now that the mechanical siren sound effect designated for both the Crown and Ward Engines when the sound editors didn't screw it up was the PA-1.


Additionally, while the Squad has an Interceptor mounted in it, I can count on one hand the number of times a real Federal Interceptor is dubbed-in, whereas it's designated siren is a sound effects creation shared with Adam-12's siren sound.

 

[DalmatProd]

I see that quite a bit on this board, Steve, where volunteers are allowed sirens in their POVs.

Skip,


I lived in Cincinnati during my first year in grad school(1976). In reality, we lived in a small 'burb which was located in Hamilton County. Early in my time there, I drove down and found the firehouse and asked about membership. All they cared about was whether or not I could respond during "day time" hours. Even though I was in school and had no more than two classes on any one day, the schedule was too hectic for me to be beneficial to their coverage problems. I was heartbroken! Especially after I learned that vollies can run red lights AND sirens in the Ohio. "Too bad," the Chief said to me, when he had to turn my offer down. "You would have been the first college graduate in the history of the department!"


Steve

 

[rofowacker]

Living in Pa with what I believe to be the worst light law states as an officer I am required to run red or red/white lights and a siren. Regular ffs are blue only.


As mentioned I run the eXcuetor as one of of my sirens hooked in to the DeMega Ultimate controller. The DeMega is the second siren tone used for airhorn and phaser.

 

[Skip Goulet]

I've been watching the entire series on DVD the last few weeks, and while it's obvious the Ward Pumper has a Q mounted on it, the dubbed-in siren is clearly not a Q and despite Mr. O'Connell's assertion, I'm dead positive now that the mechanical siren sound effect designated for both the Crown and Ward Engines when the sound editors didn't screw it up was the PA-1.

Additionally, while the Squad has an Interceptor mounted in it, I can count on one hand the number of times a real Federal Interceptor is dubbed-in, whereas it's designated siren is a sound effects creation shared with Adam-12's siren sound.

Sorry....but I take exception to your remark about Kevin!! He owns B&M and he's the one who knows what was or was not used on Emergency! He actually worked on a number of the episodes. I do agree, however, about what you say about the Interceptor sounds that are dubbed in. Those are in fact Interceptors sounds, with the siren being used in the manual mode when it was recorded.