Are companies are hurting themselves by offering too many different lightbars? Discuss.

[JohnMarcson]

Regardless of whether it is a good or bad thing, are major companies hurting brand recognition and giving the "knock offs" and legit smaller companies a foothold by not having a concise easily recognizable line?  At what point does offering too many similar looking products overwhelm the consumer into thinking all lightbars are the same?   Have the product lines of major companies become crowded and confusing, or is the larger variety of bars a good thing? 

 

[JazzDad]

No, no, yes.

(I have to pay for Internet bandwith by keystroke.)

Does it really matter if some geek (like the folks who hang out here) can or can't tell what brand a light is?  If it works (is visible without being obnoxious), has a good warranty and manuafacturer's support, and meets any government safety standards, who gives a flip what name is on it? 

I stopped buying Levi's jeans when they no longer promoted that their product as durable and a good value.  The commercials now are people flying around in the air.  Are they telling me that if I buy their jeans, I'll be able to fly?  But I digress...

 

[JohnMarcson]

Yes.

My rebuttal:

No

 

[JohnMarcson]

No, no, yes.

(I have to pay for Internet bandwith by keystroke.)

Does it really matter if some geek (like the folks who hang out here) can or can't tell what brand a light is?  If it works (is visible without being obnoxious), has a good warranty and manuafacturer's support, and meets any government safety standards, who gives a flip what name is on it? 

I stopped buying Levi's jeans when they no longer promoted that their product as durable and a good value.  The commercials now are people flying around in the air.  Are they telling me that if I buy their jeans, I'll be able to fly?  But I digress...

Always making the discussion about clothes or shoes or hair... aren't we Mr. Jazz.

Take brand out of it, brand was never the point.  Let's re-term the question.  Could larger respected companies increase or regain brand recognition by offering less bars? Does brand recognition matter to the people that buy lights?  Is a market blitz/flood approach the best because people are just buying what ever looks cool? 

 

[CodeMan]

Hmm I see the point,

if a company offers lets say an LED or strobe or rotator lightbar in varied lengths and options. & Offered an optional unique shape to cover all axis based on that manufacturer.

One thing most consumers look at is price,what company product is going to give the most for the lesser price...  IMHO.

But yes I believe they could.

 

[Rusted413]

For me the issue isn't having a "recognizable" brand/similar looking products, it's the lack of innovative bars/lights. Every manufacturer has their linear bar that performs essentially the same. But a Valor, Delta with the led rotors, and some of the other new and innovative products, that makes me take notice of a company. 

 

[Marc M]

I could see having two separate bars. One for larger vehicles(fire/ems apparatus, people like me that like big lights) and one for smaller vehicles(law enforcement).   

 

[crescentstar69]

I agree with John. I used to be able to tell what brand every bar was at a glance. Now, I  barely recognize any of them, or, when I think I know what it is, I get closer and I'm wrong.

 

[JazzDad]

But is it important to be able to identify what brand or model a particuale light is?  In my teen years, I could identify every car that drove by.  Now they pretty much look all the same.  (Nothing to do with my cataracts and macular degeneration.)

Another consideration in making only one line or two is the parts inventory factor.  If you have to stock lenses for 50 diferent models, this will cut into the bottom line.

 

[cabunty]

...i just want a pair of the flying jeans...?

 

[emtanderson51]

I think the bars are gonna all look the same until the next major development. Clear lenses with colored LED's. From a distance they all look the same too on or off. What separates the brands is the functionality, dependability, serviceability, warranty and customer service. 

 

[chono]

I would say no. Sure many of us love our blinkies, but I think we are a minority.

Most emergency service personnel I have met wouldnt be able to recongnize the brand or even care for that matter.

The chiefs want whats cheap most of the time and will settle for whoever offers the lowest bid.

 

[Solvarex]

I would say no. Sure many of us love our blinkies, but I think we are a minority.

Most emergency service personnel I have met wouldnt be able to recongnize the brand or even care for that matter.

The chiefs want whats cheap most of the time and will settle for whoever offers the lowest bid.

Exactly.

Whackers like us are few and far between. Those that get into emergency professions solely for lights have no business being there.

I use all Whelen equipment for four reasons: 1) ability to sync; 2) familiarity with product line and installation procedures; 3) sold and serviced locally; 4) excellent, well-established product.

 

[philyumpshus]

Has brand recognition sold any lights anyways? I've never had someone buy a light from me because it was a _____ model _____. They wanted it because it fit their needs and more importantly their budget.

I mentioned this somewhat in another thread recently. It seems to me that there is significant R&D and manufacturing expenses involved with each product a company sells. The amount of lightheads and lightbars (all their related configurations) that come from Whelen really surprise me. Considering they dominated the LED market with the Liberty, Freedom, and century series lightheads (400, 500, 600, etc) makes me wonder why and how they offer so many niche products now. The initial and running costs of supporting so many diverse products makes me question how profitable they are overall. 

 

[cabunty]

 The initial and running costs of supporting so many diverse products makes me question how profitable they are overall. 

they have to be doing something right...have you ever seen some of the custom BIG dollar machines from like Trumpf they have? even more shocking is that with most of them in like NH they have two of each...in case one breaks or goes down for regular maintenance... that's even more mind boggling then the multitude of niche offerings they have! 

 

[JohnMarcson]

Has brand recognition sold any lights anyways?

That's really one of the main questions of this thread.  It may be to ensure that they meet NFPA / KKK specs, but I do see a lot of brand specific ordering in the newly built fire/ems markets.  How much of that comes from the builder and how much from the buyer varies.  There seems to be no shortage of models from both big and small companies, I too am curious how much the brand matters.... but also whether users are making the correlation between brand, quality and customer service...   We seem to be at a plateau of technology again in warning equipment, it is interesting to see the bars all start to look the same again.

 

[Solvarex]

There is probably as much brand loyalty in departments as there is nepotism, which is to say not pervasive, but probably more than is led on publicly.

As far as Whelen being profitable with their countless niche products, you answered your own question. They HAVE to be profitable (and very much so) to be able to diversify into so many products. It would be hard to argue that they aren't the North American de facto standard of emergency warning systems today.

 

[JohnMarcson]

It would be hard to argue that they aren't the North American de facto standard of emergency warning systems today.

Then there is that point...  The idea that for fire/EMS, there is Whelen, and the products others make to compete with Whelen.  Has the brand loyalty picture become Whelen and everyone else?  If you are willing to deviate from Whelen on a fire/EMS vehicle, are you willing to go with an overseas company?  Are the overseas companies being used interchangeably with everything "non-Whelen"?

 

[philyumpshus]

As far as the niche products go, just because a company makes a lot of products doesn't mean that they sell a lot of them and/or that they make a good profit on them. Take auto manufacturers for instances- Mercury, Pontiac, Saturn, Oldsmobile, Plymouth etc. have been axed for a lot of reasons but a big one being they cannibalized the other brands they were sold under. In its last yeards Mercury did not sell a single model that couldn't be bought as a Ford. It might be a stretch to compare this to Whelen but I do believe that carrying so many products hurts their bottom line. 

Whelen seems to be the standard that we compare most products to. However, I've never heard anyone complain about the brand of lights on his rig because I think most people don't know the difference anyway. It's kind of scary but if you took a brand new fire truck and delivered it to a dept. with a bunch of cheap knockoff lights I don't think anyone would know the difference. 

 

[LRGJr72]

Branding is an enormous part of successful marketing. The whole point of establishing a brand is instant recognition. Years ago the products of each lighting company were instantly identifiable because of unique traits of the physical profile and shape of beacons & bars they sold. I completely agree that there has been a mind-numbing proliferation of models and features in the last decade. I've always amused myself with my ability to name manufacturers from a distance. Now... I have no idea where most lighting products that I see have come from until I'm close enough to see the manufacturer's logo. And I hate that.

But... lights, just like beer and bottled water, now have to offer an infinite combination of features, colors, shapes, flavors & fizziness. Especially since we live in a time when there is an absolute obsession with personalization, variety and choice. The only modern lights I that can identify without pause would be the FS Vision SLR. And I have yet to see that product in person. 

 

[JazzDad]

... makes me wonder why and how they offer so many niche products now. The initial and running costs of supporting so many diverse products makes me question how profitable they are overall. 

Perhaps the bigger selling lines/ products are artificially inflated to support the sales price of the niche product.  If true, as a buyer of that popular product, that should make you angry.

 

[cabunty]

They (Whelen) also has aviation and mass notification systems...which I am sure command a high dollar.

 

[JohnMarcson]

They (Whelen) also has aviation and mass notification systems...which I am sure command a high dollar.

Whelen is a very successful and very nearly autonomous company.  They have several very successful divisions, including automotive.  Federal Signal is similar, with their hands in various safety and traffic control industries.  I don't have a good picture of the structure of Code 3 since the last merger, some of their recent products have seemed geared to Non-American markets, so that may be a large market share for them.  The big three may now be Whelen, Federal and everyone else.....  that remains to be seen.  The trend I am seeing is the overseas stuff being lumped in with "everyone else".

 

[Solvarex]

Perhaps the bigger selling lines/ products are artificially inflated to support the sales price of the niche product.  If true, as a buyer of that popular product, that should make you angry.

Sure thing there, Karl Marx.

 

[bluestinger90]

Oh snap, we have ourselves a celebrity here! It makes sense, since JDI has been in business for 250 years. I wonder what other famous people work there.

 

[FusionWolf]

Personally I see this hurting whelen, however I don't see this as a bad thing. For years whelen and FS have dominated the market and each year they come out with something new that's slightly different that's $50 more. Many times simplicity is the best route and many vehicles have simple lights on them. Sure your lightbar is quad colored can be personalized to what ever you want, has 37 different arrow patterns but do you think the department really cares about that? No. The people that would care about such things are the people with lights on their personal vehicles and the light fanatics on this site. However I don't know many VFF or PD who are going to put a $4000 lightbar on their personal vehicle. Whelen prices have been on a steady increase and they are starting to make themselves inaccessible to the average person. For instance why would I want to spend $96 on a whelen ion when I can get an SnM E6 light for $56.


The more features and gimmicky ideas you add to a product, the more the price goes up and understandablely so. However the more your price goes up for simple lightheads the more you narrow your potential client list.


The one good thing I see coming out of this is maybe a drop in whelen pricing as they hit a decline in business. Because if the trend continues they are going to make themselves inaccessible to most Depts.


My towns DPW used to be all whelen. A few of their new trucks with the exception of 2 whelen 700s is all SnM products. One of our new cruisers has a whelen liberty. But the rest is all off brand.


Whelen and FS increase in price has more than just fiscal downsides. It has opened the floodgate for all these over seas and off brand products to flood the market. Now many have reputable names such as sirennet strobes n more and advanced warning lights. However there are others who I believe we all know who that is, who are compromising our safety. If our light fail or catch fire due to poor quality control, we can be the next MVA fatality. However to be able to afford any lights many people choose to go with these off brand lights and if they happen to not do their research them they are putting themselves at risk. For the price of a whelen avenger I can get an awl pulse dash light 2 grille lights and a rear light stick and all from a reputable off brand warning light company. So tell me why should I not go with AWL over Whelen?


Whelen is doing nothing but hurting themselves and sadly they may not realize it now. But down the road, if the price increase trend continues I see them taking a major hit. And smaller companies like SnM AWL and Sirennet taking off with their own stock.

 

[Carlos SpicyWeiner]

The driving force with the chinese products is the extreme profit margins. There are american made brands comparable for less. 

I think the number of bars catering to specific needs is not a huge issue for larger companies. For smaller companies, it is just not smart. You are better off doing a few things REALLY good than stretching yourself and your resources thin.  

Whelen has almost unlimited resources, while smaller companies don't.  I think smaller companies are better off taking a basic platform idea and being flexible with it.  

Have one style base for a lightbar with a low profile dome that can mount some light heads to it for a police car. Once you have an empty base, you can do what you need to with it from there to fit many needs. 

Whelen can afford to create new bases for their lightbars.  They have everything they need to do it. 

 

[Sigma Safety]

I too am seeing a lot of confusion with some of the manufacturers' stuff.  Whelen in particular has SO many variants of lightbars that I simply can't keep up.  Maybe I'm just more used to FedSig stuff...

The barrier to entry for new companies in this market is pretty high these days.  Feniex is doing a good job of taking products that are sleepy and outdated (Vertex) and upgrading them to something up-to-date (Cannon).

Part of the problem is that W and FS look at what each other is doing and try to adapt their products based on what their competitor is doing.  It's hard NOT to do that, but it also limits their creativity in new products.  FS has the Valor, which W can't do because of patents, so W brings out all their other perimeter lights with a "V" shape.  Same with the mechanical siren tone.  I'm sure some Whelen products have had significant influences in new FS products, too. 

I almost hope that they STOP watching one another and just make the best product they can.  Then, they can come up with innovative products never-before seen in the market, like the Vision bar as an example.

I've been in this business full-time for 15 years now.  I can't recall the last time someone asked me how many flash patterns a product does.  It's just not a concern outside of the lighting geeks (yes, I'm one of those), but most customers don't care.  What they DO want is good local representation, reliability, and fair (not necessarily the lowest) pricing, along with good support.  A good assortment of mounting brackets is also important (Whelen does an excellent job at this, FS not so much though they're starting to catch up).

Like John, I see a lot of Fire Dept's spec "Whelen" or "Federal Signal" on their truck bids.  When we ask them why they do that, almost always the answer is "because all our other stuff is that brand" and they want a single-source of spare parts, a uniform/consistent look to all their vehicles , etc.   Many times you can show them a better product (in a different brand) for about the same price and they won't care.  The need for consistent appearance across their fleet and ease of service / single point of contact for parts, overrides the argument for a better product.

Unlike some of the comments above, we don't often see the departments buy based solely on cost.  Often it's on trust (of the product and vendor) and features, and the ability to get good local service, though overall package price is always a factor.  If I'm spec'ing FedSig and I'm 10% higher than a company half way across the country who is spec'ing an offshore never-heard-of brand, I would say 90% of the customers would go with us.  If we were 2x the price, probably not...

Some of the lightbar features like dual colour/tri-colour and the ability to do full front flood are sincerely helpful for many agencies.  We just couldn't do that before 2012 or so, and now that we can, it's one of those "how did I ever work without this" kind of moments for many agencies.  However, not all upgrades are worthwhile - sometimes they are done because the manufacturer can, not because they should.  Engineers and marketing people need to remember to talk to the customers!

To answer the original question; yes, I think some manufacturers have gotten carried away with too many lightbar platforms.  The customers don't care.  You need a few different models for fire apparatus, police cars, and the like, but not 20.

 

[nutsy]

Great write-up Leftcoastmark. I couldn't agree more.

To the initail question, YES there are too many products offered by Whelen and Federal Signal.

 

[bluestinger90]

Part of the problem is that W and FS look at what each other is doing and try to adapt their products based on what their competitor is doing.  It's hard NOT to do that, but it also limits their creativity in new products.  FS has the Valor, which W can't do because of patents, so W brings out all their other perimeter lights with a "V" shape. 

Did Rontan license the "V" shape for their Winglux lightbar in North America?

http://www.rontan.com/redblue2013/index.html

 

[Solvarex]

Feniex is doing a good job of taking products that are sleepy and outdated (Vertex) and upgrading them to something up-to-date (Cannon).

I've been in this business full-time for 15 years now.  I can't recall the last time someone asked me how many flash patterns a product does.  It's just not a concern outside of the lighting geeks (yes, I'm one of those), but most customers don't care.  What they DO want is good local representation, reliability, and fair (not necessarily the lowest) pricing, along with good support.  A good assortment of mounting brackets is also important (Whelen does an excellent job at this, FS not so much though they're starting to catch up).

Agree with most of what Mark said aside from the top quoted line. I think Feniex did a terrible job with the Cannon. I had a set in amber/white and the amber hue was so dark that it nearly looked red, and I found they were no brighter than the Vertexes I'd replaced them with. Had to hog out a HUGE hole in the body to get that ridiculously oversized driver module through (was too long to push straight through!) and ended up not using them anyways. Not to mention they were recommending to use them in OEM positions without having SAE/DOT approval, the overheating issues, and the god awful sync method. A very half assed execution on what should have been a fabulous product. The rest of Feniex's lines have been so underwhelming, generic, and lacking innovation that I haven't paid any attention to them.

As for the second quoted paragraph I agree completely. Can I get other stuff cheaper? Sure. I could even get Whelen stuff cheaper online than through my local dealer sometimes (and on rare occasions, I have). However when I buy from my dealer I know he will support it without question. My equipment is rarely used but I take comfort knowing someone else nearby has a dog in this race.

 

[Sigma Safety]

Agree with most of what Mark said aside from the top quoted line. I think Feniex did a terrible job with the Cannon. I had a set in amber/white and the amber hue was so dark that it nearly looked red, and I found they were no brighter than the Vertexes I'd replaced them with. Had to hog out a HUGE hole in the body to get that ridiculously oversized driver module through (was too long to push straight through!) and ended up not using them anyways. Not to mention they were recommending to use them in OEM positions without having SAE/DOT approval, the overheating issues, and the god awful sync method. A very half assed execution on what should have been a fabulous product. The rest of Feniex's lines have been so underwhelming, generic, and lacking innovation that I haven't paid any attention to them.

I'm not sure how old the Cannons were that you tried, but they are amazing now.  The intensity difference between a Vertex and Cannon is dramatic.  Yes, the driver is longer but still fits through a 1" hole, and they are releasing a new version with a quick-disconnect between the head and driver in a month or so.  We have had excellent acceptance on them out west, from small fire dept's to RCMP.  

I agree on the DOT-type applications though - we don't recommend them for that, though some agencies have chosen to do it anyway.

We haven't had any overheat, though if customers are using them for steady-burn, I always recommend that they provide good airflow to the heatsink, and if possible it's safer to install a small resistor to dim the steady-burn down a bit so they don't get so hot.  That said, I haven't had one complaint of an overheating light.

 

[Carlos SpicyWeiner]

I'm not sure how old the Cannons were that you tried, but they are amazing now.  The intensity difference between a Vertex and Cannon is amazing.  Yes, the driver is longer but still fits through a 1" hole, and they are releasing a new version with a quick-disconnect between the head and driver in a month or so.  We have had excellent acceptance on them out west, from small fire dept's to RCMP.  

I agree on the DOT-type applications though - we don't recommend them for that, though some agencies have chosen to do it anyway.

We haven't had any overheat, though if customers are using them for steady-burn, I always recommend that they provide good airflow to the heatsink, and if possible it's safer to install a small resistor to dim the steady-burn down a bit so they don't get so hot.  That said, I haven't had one complaint of an overheating light.

Bingo.  I'm wondering if it was an application where the vertex made it into a reflector more. That will be fixed with the Luminex. 


PS, welcome to the Feniex family  :thumbsup:

 

[Sigma Safety]

Did Rontan license the "V" shape for their Winglux lightbar in North America?

http://www.rontan.com/redblue2013/index.html

Yes.  To my understanding that's exactly what happened.

...welcome to the Feniex family  :thumbsup:

Thanks!  Thank you for your help with the initial bunches of Cannons - you were fantastic (and still are, I'm sure! )

 

[emtanderson51]

Then there is that point...  The idea that for fire/EMS, there is Whelen, and the products others make to compete with Whelen.  Has the brand loyalty picture become Whelen and everyone else?  If you are willing to deviate from Whelen on a fire/EMS vehicle, are you willing to go with an overseas company?  Are the overseas companies being used interchangeably with everything "non-Whelen"?

This is generally how it goes. You have ambulance builder A. They have a buyer agreement with several manufacturers. Your mainline builders generally go with a mainstream supplier as the go-to supplier for equipment whether it be the lights, switches, cots etc.... A smaller company that builds fewer vehicles per year may go with a less expensive equipment supplier of the same equipment to be able to compete and maintain a profit. Fire apparatus builders offer the Big 3 lighting packages for their trucks, but, depending on their relationship with the supplier, may offer one product over another based on the builders cost on such product. The Whelen package may be $1000 higher list but they have a better buying agreement than they do with, say, Code 3. The Whelen package gets a better discount then the C3 one does even though on paper the Whelen should be more expensive.

 

[Station 3]

I don't understand why Whelen is fascinated with crazy patterns and 20 modes and quad colors and such if many department heads don't even care what all that means. Shieet most whelen reps wont even explain what the bar can do and even If they do the department head does not give a crap or understand what that means. And when that bar hits the shop the boring install shop guys the County/State or private companys down here that do installs always choose the same generic whelen flash pattern and don't even plug in all the other modes to the control box. I have seen $4k bars on patrol cars with all the bells and wistles on paper and guess what they are not even plugged in because NOBODY CARES. Only people that care are nerds like us and if most brand name lights are already out of reach for me so now I only shop AWL,StrobesNMore, and other off brands of that good quality.