Blue Light (courtesy) response vs. Red light (Code 3/Hot) response

LightBars4Sale.com

New Member
Dec 9, 2010
185
Norton Ohio 44203
Good morning:

Channel 4 out of Pittsburgh is running this series:

http://www.wtae.com/investigations/fire-response-investigation-we-address-your-feedback/32560284

I was a vollie in PA before I relocated to Ohio. Had to run blue light in PA and red in Ohio.

Beside dwindling memberships - they are looking at the response times. Pennsylvania in a blue light state - except for the Chief and 1st assistant.

I did a forum search but could not find anything. My question to all of you since there is a vast amount of knowledge out there..............

Is there - or has there - been a study done on blue light (courtesy) response - versus - red light response (lights n siren)

Keep in mind, this applies to personal vehicles only.

I am sure there are the horror stories of someone crashing a red light etc.... 

The department I was with in Ohio - made it mandatory that the red light have 360 visibility - so no dash lights exclusively. They also had the Highway Patrol come in yearly for vehicle inspections.

Has anyone experienced their own personal insurance company not allowing / refusing coverage for this?

Is there an "expert" on this subject?

What are the pro's and con's of keeping the courtesy blue light law -  blue light response as they do in PA?

and finally?

Do any of you have - or can provide links to - response videos in a POV - showing a blue light response versus a red light emergency response. These videos need to allow the possibility of media rebroadcast. Ideally a response where the blue light responder has to sit through red lights etc.

You all have a lot of good information and experience, so I look forward to your kind and constructive comments.

Stay safe!

John
 

Phoenix_Rising

Lifetime VIP Donor
Feb 27, 2012
6,742
Berks County PA
As someone who uses blue lights, let me simply say response with them sucks. Depending where I was, I actually map the path of least resistance so to speak; ie not taking roads where a red light will be an issue. Should I have no choice, Id opt to just turn them off. The light laws are archeic, and should allow full priviledges.


TLDR:


On scene, blues do what they need to do


Responding: Noone knows what to do and just like EVs dont move half the time.
 

Jarred J.

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 21, 2010
11,580
Shelbyville, TN
this topic has been discussed multiple times, you have to use the right key words
 

Jarred J.

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 21, 2010
11,580
Shelbyville, TN
go up to the search box... click on the thing that looks like a tire next to it...

type in "courtesy light"

hit search.

enjoy
 
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Phillyrube

Member
May 21, 2010
1,272
Flatistan
Ok, at the risk of  getting flamed out of here.....  I am a long time volunteer.  40+ years, PA and VA.  Both are courtesy light states, except in VA, we can use red or red and white lights.  No sirens.  As a volunteer, I "volunteer" when I join a department.  After that, there are obligations to met.  Things like training, certifications, and standing duty.  "WHAT?"  Standing duty.  I volunteer to sit at the fire house for a 12 hour shift, ready to run the trucks out the door when the bells ring.  That guarantees a truck quickly to the call for service.  We used to run POVs to calls and to the station, but as we evolve, the public expects more.  Response times by POV are longer, and when the volunteers could no longer get a truck or squad out the door in a timely manner, the career fire department was started and they too, evolved.  They undertook more and more responsibilities, as the volunteers slowly could no longer meet the needs of the community.

In the SE PA area, where I am from, and still have many relatives, traditionally all volunteer companies now have career staff during daytimes, and sometimes, for 24 hours.  The first piece out the door is career, and volunteers respond with additional apparatus.  We are evolving.

The Channel 4 piece alludes to departments no longer meeting the need, and seemingly ignoring queries about it (West Mifflin Fire Co. refused to comment).  Other departments in the PA and South Jersey areas are feuding with city and township leadership over manning and management, and a couple have been suspended.  That does not do the citizens any good, having a fully equipped firehouse and being prohibited from responding, even if there are people there to do it.

I was a red light geek:  I liked having lights and responding POV.  Never had an accident (knock on head, I mean wood) but I know volunteers who did, and after the claims were satisfied, were promptly dropped or were restricted from POV response.  This leads to increased insurance costs, and could cause someone to leave the fire service.

I am very pro volunteer:  I commonly say when the volunteers are all gone, I'll be the last one out the door, and I'll turn off the lights.   Please, please, volunteer, but the place to do it is at the station, on a set schedule, with your gear primed by the jumpseats, ready to go in a moment.  POV lighting is only good for when you stumble upon an accident or something.
 
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Zapp Brannigan

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 23, 2010
3,580
.
1) 'Courtesy lights' are useless.

2) Studies have been done where there is a miniscule difference in apparatus that respond RL&S vs. no lights.

3) The argument will always exist "seconds matter" so even if you DO save seconds....

4) As soon as you activate RL&S, statistically you are 300-500% more likely to be involved in a motor vehicle collision

5) Part of that is the mentality of you as the operator

6) The other part is most of society is retarded and react poorly to lights and sirens

(to note, I live in a blue light/courtesy state)
 
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AJ3814

Member
Mar 13, 2015
689
Central Louisiana
I'll go ahead and force my .02 down your eye sockets.....

1) Courtesy lights are flipping useless. You still have to obey all traffic laws in those states, and are not classified as an emergency vehicle so .... why have them? Pointless.

2) Most states have different definitions of emergency vehicles and what the requirements are, in addition to who can run what colors, and in what direction they may flash according to the vehicle they are mounted on.

3) (My opinion) .... NO ONE should be allowed to "run hot" (using lights with or without siren) until they have completed a certified EVOC course AND ridden along with LE in a pursuit to see first hand how dangerous it really is.

4) I also believe that if you're not LE trying to sneak up on someone there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER to ever run lights without a siren. They should ALWAYS be run in tandem. But that starts the adrenaline pumping.... need to know how to handle that, which a lot of younger volunteers do not.

I am 110% in favor of volunteers .... AND them being allowed to "run hot" to calls, or to the station to retrieve equipment.... BUT they need to be trained properly.

If your state doesn't "see you" as an authorized emergency vehicle, there is no point whatsoever to have lights and/or a siren. Very often (even on patrol) I can get somewhere faster just by tactical driving and the only time people have a chance to "panic" is after I've already passed them without warning and the see my hazard flashers on. Lights and a siren can very easily "let them know you're coming up behind them" and cause the panic as you approach.
 
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RescueWV

Member
Dec 31, 2010
337
Central PA
First of all, I have to address the fact that the WTAE news story linked by the OP is worthless.  They accomplish absolutely nothing by comparing response times in the City of Pittsburgh to those of volunteer departments in suburban and rural outlying areas.  Even comparing one suburban/rural county to another would be difficult because they are vastly different geographically, demographically and socioeconomically. The statistics they're using aren't all that great either, because in most places the incident logs would still rely on a unit calling on scene as soon as they arrived, and the dispatcher marking it in the CAD as soon as they heard it, which doesn't always happen.

In fact, one of the departments that was singled out for allegedly having a 40 minute response time to a structure fire offered proof that they in fact had two pumpers on scene within 15 minutes, but efforts to get WTAE to make any sort of retraction have gone ignored.

That being said, I have mixed feelings about courtesy lights.  I'm fortunate enough that given my area and usual response routes, that I have mostly stop signs rather than stoplights, and that people do in fact usually grant me the courtesy of going out of turn at a 4-way stop, or pulling over to let me pass.  As a result, it can shave 10-20% off my response time.

I think PA allowing for red lights and sirens would allow for many dedicated volunteers to respond more safely, but it would also be opening up a can of worms for others to be unsafe.  In particular, I'd actually kind of be afraid of what my firehouse would look like if we all had reds & sirens, because on a typical call we often have people coming from 4-5 different directions not including the apparatus once it's pulling out.  I think that would be a recipe for disaster.

Honestly, I think allowing for reds and sirens to improve response times is a band-aid solution whereas the real solution that states (especially PA) needs to be looking at are how to better fund volunteer departments, as well as encouraging volunteer duty crews, consolidations, or even partial/full transition to paid coverage.
 

paff2

Member
Nov 30, 2010
842
Lancaster, PA
Blue lights can help even in a courtesy state. Basicly for our dept most guys use them for crossing busy roads. And yes ppl do stop.


My dept requires an evoc class to run any lights even just blue. Not a real hardship there. Then again we now also require CDL to drive our large units as well.
 
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Jun 18, 2013
3,709
PA
HUGE part.  But then, I've seen operators of apparatus that should not be allowed to drive.
I 100% agree on this...

IMO the verdict is still out on Courtesy lights... as they are just Courtesy lights  no obligation for a motorist to move or get out of your way.

I believe however they do serve a purpose for Fire Police and POVs on Scene..  any light is better then no light..

On the flip side.. Red lights don't seem to move traffic anymore either..    There was even an instance a couple of years ago local to me where a driver ran head on into a Fire Engine (running code) while everyone else made way for it. 

What Jazz Said though is very important...  just because you have a blinkie does NOT give you the right to drive like a JackA**.    While its not as prevalent near me as people would have you believe..  the problem is still there.   

Rob
 

JazzDad

Member
Aug 5, 2011
5,165
USA
...Red lights don't seem to move traffic anymore either. ...
Side tracking the thread a bit, but another one that gets me is the drivers who don't understand (or just plain ignore) the move over laws.  I've nearly been clipped by vehicles blowing past my incidents.

Courtesy lights would work if we lived in a civil and courteous society.
 

JPolston

Member
Mar 27, 2012
512
Indiana, USA
As someone who can only run courtesy lights(b, b/w, no siren), I personally haven't had much issues. Mind you, I have a full interior bar, a dash light, and a full deck bar to the rear. I have always tried to have sufficient front and rear warning.

Since getting a full bar, I very rarely have someone ignore me coming up behind them. Once they actually pay attention, everyone pulls over eventually. I even get county mounties and state troopers to pull over. However, I apparently live in a good area.

Now, I think we all should strive for safety, and in my personal opinion, giving us volunteers who are fully certified(mainly just firefighter 1/2, if you have more, great) all emergency status should happen. I myself am FF1/2, EMT, Hazmat, Driver, etc etc, and there are more than a few times I respond from farther distances. Heck, we have quite a few guys on the dept who live on the edge of our territory. Allowing our certified people to run emergent will/should allow our guys to get to station or to scene as safe as possible, as well as shaving off a little bit of time, which we all know time is the key in this business.

The problem here is yes we get the gung ho guys who probably drive a little reckless, the majority of issues come from other drives, whether we run courtesy or emergent.  A local career dept just lost a reserve medic truck thanks to someone blowing through a red light AND not stopping for an emergency vehicle. We have people who just don't care. If we're on the interstate, we're fairly screwed. No one slows at all, no one swaps lanes unless you eventually shut down a lane or two, and no one tends to slow unless you fully shut down the I.

Courtesy or emergent  status, accidents are going to happen.
 
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JazzDad

Member
Aug 5, 2011
5,165
USA
... If we're on the interstate, we're fairly screwed. ...
I've also been in the left lane on an Interstate, going 80 MPH (maximum my department allows), code 3, and had vehicles pass me on the right.  [insert face palm.]
 

How2075

Member
May 23, 2011
61
USA/NY
I live in NY where volunteer FD uses blue and EMS only agencies use green.  Just imagine the idiot drivers try to figure that one out.  I very rarely respond to the scene (unless I have to pass the scene on my way to the station.  I wish NY would just get rid of green all together and allow us to use blue like the FD.
 

Mrbaxter

Member
Oct 16, 2013
111
Connecticut
I live in NY where volunteer FD uses blue and EMS only agencies use green. Just imagine the idiot drivers try to figure that one out. I very rarely respond to the scene (unless I have to pass the scene on my way to the station. I wish NY would just get rid of green all together and allow us to use blue like the FD.
Same here in Connecticut. I do a lot of scene response for EMS and it's almost impossible to get people to move for green lights. Blue lights aren't a major issue, but green are largely ignored.


As far as Red/Siren vs. courtesy, I don't ever former CT going to Red for everyone. My company can typically roll our first due within 4 minutes of first dispatch. Although this isn't true across the state, it's hard to argue needing emergency vehicle status when most response times statewide are less than 10 minutes (pending traffic). I do think, however, making it required for drivers to yield the right of way, making a universal courtesy color (blue), and making it easier to have a HLF would make things much safer in CT. Mandatory CEVO/EVOC classes would also be a plus.
 
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AJ3814

Member
Mar 13, 2015
689
Central Louisiana
My whole deal is the "courtesy" thing is useless.... I'd personally prefer to see every member certified for EVOC operation and their respective POV's regarded as official emergency vehicles, being duly authorized to display emergency colored lights and "noisemakers". As far as "money" is concerned, I'm sure EVOC instructors would HAPPILY donate time to certify the volunteers.... I would. Liability??..... please.... with half the retards that are currently on patrol or fire duty, what difference do a few more certified individuals make?
 

JPolston

Member
Mar 27, 2012
512
Indiana, USA
I've also been in the left lane on an Interstate, going 80 MPH (maximum my department allows), code 3, and had vehicles pass me on the right.  [insert face palm.]
I've been there many times. We don't have a set speed other than our tanker, but we can go down our section of I70 in the engine running emergent with both electronic and federal Q, and we'll still get passed. No one moves over when we're parked either. Ridiculous.

I live in NY where volunteer FD uses blue and EMS only agencies use green.  Just imagine the idiot drivers try to figure that one out.  I very rarely respond to the scene (unless I have to pass the scene on my way to the station.  I wish NY would just get rid of green all together and allow us to use blue like the FD.
Also have this problem as well in Indiana. Had a coworker call me one night asking what flashing green or green/white lights meant and why she just got ran off the road by someone using them. Last I heard(keyword there) Indiana is making it mandatory pull over for green, leaving firefighters' blue lights as courtesy. Don't know how true that is, but I just can't believe they'd do that. Then again, they can't even make up their minds on whether they want to swap us from blue courtesy to red or red/white with sirens and emergency status. Yay for Indiana... :duh:
 
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How2075

Member
May 23, 2011
61
USA/NY
Fortunately for us, the only smart thing NY has done in recent years has made it a state law to move over/slow down for all emergency vehicles regardless of color of light.

I've been there many times. We don't have a set speed other than our tanker, but we can go down our section of I70 in the engine running emergent with both electronic and federal Q, and we'll still get passed. No one moves over when we're parked either. Ridiculous.

Also have this problem as well in Indiana. Had a coworker call me one night asking what flashing green or green/white lights meant and why she just got ran off the road by someone using them. Last I heard(keyword there) Indiana is making it mandatory pull over for green, leaving firefighters' blue lights as courtesy. Don't know how true that is, but I just can't believe they'd do that. Then again, they can't even make up their minds on whether they want to swap us from blue courtesy to red or red/white with sirens and emergency status. Yay for Indiana... :duh:
 

JPolston

Member
Mar 27, 2012
512
Indiana, USA
Fortunately for us, the only smart thing NY has done in recent years has made it a state law to move over/slow down for all emergency vehicles regardless of color of light.
I WISH Indiana would do this.
 

NJEMT

Member
May 22, 2010
377
Essex County, NJ
Being in NJ a blue light state I rarely used by blue lights.  But we were mostly an in-house squad so rarely ever paged out.   But we also had 2 "pager vehicles" they were cars that members could take home and use for pager response to the building.  They were full emergency vehicles Red lights and sirens.  
 

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