Career Dept Staffing in your area

[pdk9]

Hey guys. I’m a career FF/Paramedic in Florida and was curious what minimum staffing is on each apparatus for other career FF’s. Being raised in NYC, I was used to seeing 4-6 guys on each rig going to calls, so it was a real culture shock moving to FL and seeing 1/2 empty rigs.

Obviously, there Are always exceptions, but the majority of South Florida career depts is:
• 3 FF’s on Engines
• 3 FF’s on Aerials (in Miami Dade County most depts have 4 on aerials
• 2-3 FF’s on “Rescues” (fire dept ambulances)
• Most heavy rescues are only staffed with 1-2 people and meet the the engine, aerial, &/or rescue housed at the station (because everyone at the station is Special Ops). Not a fan of this setup but we still get 7-8 guys to the call (they’re just split up on multiple trucks)

If the Rescue is 2-man, then the engine or aerial rolls with them b/c the vast majority of us are paramedics down here (so the engines/aerials are typically ALS). If a Rescue is 3-man staffing, then engine/aerial only rolls with them on codes, MVAs, or any medical call where extra manpower is needed. Engine/aerial will respond if there’s a medical call in their zone and the responding rescue is coming from a different zone, no matter how BS the call is (chiefs want response times for ISO ratings but don’t realize how stupid it is rolling $500K-1Million Rigs to “booboo” calls). We’re spoiled down here though...our 2nd due station is usually only 5-10 min away unless you’re out by the Everglades.

 

[firebuff17]

In CT most career only dept’s run:
Engines - 3
Aerials - 2
Rescue/Ambulance - 2 (I would say 50%-60% of the depts run an ambulance)
Not many career Dept’s have heavy rescues. The few Dept’s that do have heavy rescues call them Tac’s (tactical unit) or rescue’s. (Confusing to the layperson, or casual listener to the scanner because depending on the Dept an ambulance might be called a rescue.) and the heavy rescues/tacs vary greatly on staffed personnel between 1-4.
And of course these are “general” staffing. 1-2 Of the large Dept’s covering the large cities in the state may run 4 man engines and 4-6 man aerials.

 

[pdk9]

In CT most career only dept’s run:
Engines - 3
Aerials - 2
Rescue/Ambulance - 2 (I would say 50%-60% of the depts run an ambulance)
.....

That’s interesting. Why 2 on their aerials / what’s their rationale?

We only have 2 depts down here that do that but that’s b/c 1 of them staffs their aerials with 2 driver/engineers only (and then assigns a rescue or engine company to do truck work) and the other dept only staffs their “suppression units” (aerials/engines) with 2 staff since they’re a very small career dept. We don’t separate engine and truck responsibilities as much in other parts of the country b/c engines here will do truck work and aerials (99% of which are Quints) also act as engines in their first due area

When I was a vollie in NY, the few career depts in my area ran 2-man rigs (City of Poughkeepsie, City of Ithaca, etc) for engines & aerials. Even when you send 4-5 units to a job, it’s still tough to get stuff done when 2-3 guys might be anchored to their rigs pumping

 

[firebuff17]

That’s interesting. Why 2 on their aerials / what’s their rationale?

Budget and Manning I guess. Plus another engine or more likely an ambulance/rescue crew is designated to meet up with the ladder and do ladder duties... search and rescue or ventilation.

 

[pdk9]

Budget and Manning I guess. Plus another engine or more likely an ambulance/rescue crew is designated to meet up with the ladder and do ladder duties... search and rescue or ventilation.

How many units roll? Do you have enough personnel for the recommended 15-17 FFs on initial alarms?

 

[MtnMan]

Allentown, PA is my nearby "big city" dept. The best I know, they're staffing 3 on engines, 2 on the aerial (yes, "the," as in singular). On any given day, one more of those engines might not actually be an engine:
http://www.mcall.com/news/local/allentown/mc-nws-allentown-fire-truck-shortage-20170718-story.html

 

[firebuff17]

pdk9:
Typical initial alarm would be 3 engines, 1 ladder, 1 rescue/ambulance, and the incident commander. Depending on info initially gathered, multiple calls, Or upon initial report of first arriving unit having a working fire, the IC will add a 4th engine as RIT (or whatever else everybody else calls the mayday/FF down intervention team)

 

[pdk9]

Wow, I didn’t realize that 3-man units are so common.

The typical initial dispatch for a residential fire in most of South Florida is:
3 engines, 1 aerial, 2 rescues/medics, 1 EMS Captain, & 1 Battalion
to give us 18 FFs + IC & Safety

Virtually all aerials here are quints, so sometimes you may have several aerials if there aren’t 3 engines close by (as long as the total is 4 engines &/or aerials). EMS Captain is a common position in FL (in between Captain and Battalion) that runs on all serious ALS calls and typically serves as Safety Officer or a Division on large Incidents.

RIT/FAST bags are pretty universal here so any of the units can grab the RIT bag off of a unit on scene and serve as a 3-man RIT (not a fan of that since studies show you need a lot more than that if you have a true mayday, but that’s above my pay grade). Most depts have automatic aid/closest unit dispatch with other depts in their county, so dispatch protocols rarely differ

 

[tsquale]

For the metro agency I dispatch for:

Engines: 3-4 depending on the day (sick calls, vacation, etc); 1 FF, 1 MO, and 1 CPT. with the fourth position being a second FF

Truck Co: 3-4 staffed the same way as engines. They also cross man the rescue, tanker, and brush truck at their respective station

1 B.Chief per shift as the commanding officer, responding out of HQ

We have 5 stations staffed 24/7:
3- single engine companies (Stations 2,3,and 5); Station 2 also has the structural collapse heavy rescue which is staffed by their engine co when needed
1- two engine cos, one truck co, and the on duty B.Chief (Station 1)
1- single engine co, one truck co (Station 4); HazMat is based here and staffed as needed by on duty crews.

 

[MiFF]

Here in my area of Michigan most all career department's staff engines with 3 minimum and ladders with 2-3 minimum. Most have 4 assigned but due to days off, sick days and vacation days they ride at the minimum. The heavy rescue is pretty much a thing of the past in my area. Rescue pumpers rule here.

Most department's with career staffing in my area are combo career/poc department's. Those department's typically have a truck ride out with one driver with poc staff responding direct to the scene.

Then there are the public safety department's. Some have engineers assigned to apparatus, some have a pso assigned at the desk who drives the rig, while others have nobody at the station and pso's respond to the station to get the rigs.

 

[pdk9]

Then there are the public safety department's. Some have engineers assigned to apparatus, some have a pso assigned at the desk who drives the rig, while others have nobody at the station and pso's respond to the station to get the rigs.

What do you mean by a Public Safety Officer? Are you referring to a dual-certified LEO/FF?

Before being absorbed into the county fire dept, 2 smaller fire depts in my area operated as Public Safety Depts, where they had 3 FF/PMs staffing an engine and rescue (ambulance) and then the 5-6 on-duty LEOs would respond to fire calls in their PD vehicle, b/c they were cross-trained LEOs/FFs/EMTs that had bunker gear in the trunk of their patrol CVPIs. IMO, it sounds good in theory if you’re in a rural area where manpower is scarce, but it didn’t seem practical here, b/c we’re an urban area and mutual aid from neighboring cities (all with fully-staffed career stations) was literally 5 min away in every direction from their station

 

[vonirkinshtine]

Charlotte Fire Dept. runs 4-man crews on engines, ladders, and rescues ("rescues" in Charlotte are heavy-rescue companies...ambulances are provided by MEDIC).

I think HazMat companies are also 4-man crews, but they're cross-manned by another crew (if HM1 goes out on a run, then E13 is out of service).

 

[Doyle257]

City of Buffalo runs 3-man Engines, 4-man Trucks, and i believe A 4-man Heavy Rescue.

19 Engines
8 Ladders
1 Hazmat
1 Rescue
1 Fire Boat(Part time operating crew, manned by crew from E1 when needed)
1 Light Truck(Staffed with a Driver/Operator)
1 Air Truck(staffed with a Driver/operator)
1 ATF Response Unit(Not staffed full time)
1 Rehab unit(Not Staffed full time)
1 Mobile Command Unit(Not Staffed full time)
2 Decon units(Not Staffed full time)
1 Tech Rescue/Collapse unit(Not staffed full time)
1 Foam Trailer, owned by NYS Office of Fire Prevention and Control
4 Batt Chiefs
1 Division Chief

 

[pdk9]

I really wish my dept had 4-man ladders/trucks. Overall, I think we really don’t do enough truck work and training in South Florida, so we’re really treated by our admin as engine companies with a bucket or stick on our rig. The guys on our rescues (ambulance/medic rig) are expected to supplement the aerial crew staffing for truck work, but our dept doesn’t have us doing as much roof/ventilation drills as needed to stay TRULY proficient in it

 

[Doyle257]

That happens alot in the Volunteer world as well. In our area, there are 3 or 4 Ladder companies...meaning that is the only rig that particular company has, and they specialize in Ladder work. the rest of the departments may or may not have a Truck, and their training on the use of such may or may not be on par with their engine work.

 

[pdk9]

City of Buffalo runs 3-man Engines, 4-man Trucks, and i believe A 4-man Heavy Rescue.

19 Engines
8 Ladders
1 Hazmat
1 Rescue
1 Fire Boat(Part time operating crew, manned by crew from E1 when needed)
1 Light Truck(Staffed with a Driver/Operator)
1 Air Truck(staffed with a Driver/operator)
1 ATF Response Unit(Not staffed full time)
1 Rehab unit(Not Staffed full time)
1 Mobile Command Unit(Not Staffed full time)
2 Decon units(Not Staffed full time)
1 Tech Rescue/Collapse unit(Not staffed full time)
1 Foam Trailer, owned by NYS Office of Fire Prevention and Control
4 Batt Chiefs
1 Division Chief

What’s an ATF response unit?

My dept has
• 43 ALS Engines (3-man)
• 3 ALS Quint Platforms (3-man)
• 3 ALS Quint Straight Sticks (3-man)
• 54 Rescues/Ambulances (mostly 3-man, but 2-man in slow zones, and 2-man on the 2nd out Rescue in a station housing 2 rescues)
• 4 Tankers (1-man)
• 7 District Chiefs (each DC is in charge of all 3 shifts in a single Battalion)
• 7 Battalion Chief (shift commander)
• 7 EMS Captains
• 2 Special Ops (Heavy Rescues)
• 1 Technical Rescue Truck (unmanned with extra shoring and cribbing equipment driven by a FF at the Special Ops Station)
• 2 Light/Air (unmanned)
• 19 4x4 Freightliner and Ford Brush (Unmanned. Driven by the FF on Rescue or Engine at that station)
• 5 ARFF

Each engine/aerial/rescue must have at least 2 paramedics. In the slower zones, we have “Either/Or” staffing where 3 FFs are stationed at a house with an engine and a rescue. The crew jumps on one rig or the other depending on call type

 

[firebuff17]

pdk9
Which Dept is this? Miami?
Sounds like a hell of well staffed Dept.

 

[MiFF]

What do you mean by a Public Safety Officer? Are you referring to a dual-certified LEO/FF?

Before being absorbed into the county fire dept, 2 smaller fire depts in my area operated as Public Safety Depts, where they had 3 FF/PMs staffing an engine and rescue (ambulance) and then the 5-6 on-duty LEOs would respond to fire calls in their PD vehicle, b/c they were cross-trained LEOs/FFs/EMTs that had bunker gear in the trunk of their patrol CVPIs. IMO, it sounds good in theory if you’re in a rural area where manpower is scarce, but it didn’t seem practical here, b/c we’re an urban area and mutual aid from neighboring cities (all with fully-staffed career stations) was literally 5 min away in every direction from their station

I do mean combination leo/ff. Michigan sadly has the highest number of combined public safety department's in the country including the countries largest public safety department, the city of Kalamazoo.

Some of them do it well, others do it like crap. Seems to depend a lot on leadership and department culture. Whenever the concept is brought up people always point to the success in Kalamazoo but forget they've been doing it for 27 years. They burned down a lot of buildings in the first 15 years or so working out the kinks.

 

[MiFF]

I really wish my dept had 4-man ladders/trucks. Overall, I think we really don’t do enough truck work and training in South Florida, so we’re really treated by our admin as engine companies with a bucket or stick on our rig. The guys on our rescues (ambulance/medic rig) are expected to supplement the aerial crew staffing for truck work, but our dept doesn’t have us doing as much roof/ventilation drills as needed to stay TRULY proficient in it

I've noticed the a lot of Florida departments don't seem to take truck work seriously. It's pretty evident when you have blocks of 10 story condos and the only ladder truck for miles is a 75' straight stick quint that's run first out as an engine. I've also noticed a lot of department's don't run many truck companies when compared to the size of the area they cover. Whole counties of over 1000 square miles and half a dozen truck companies doesn't really seem like sufficient coverage.

 

[Doyle257]

What’s an ATF response unit?

"Specialty hazmat, in regards to law enforcement" is the straightest answer I can get out of anyone. Im guessing its for securing meth labs and Bomb manufacture sites

Each engine/aerial/rescue must have at least 2 paramedics. In the slower zones, we have “Either/Or” staffing where 3 FFs are stationed at a house with an engine and a rescue. The crew jumps on one rig or the other depending on call type

All of the City's rigs run as BLS units, with ALS Provided by AMR, or one of the other Local Ambulance providers when AMR hits Level Zero, which happens...often...Not as often as it did before Rural/Metro was purchased by AMR, but it still happens. Also when you're in a city that could use 1 or 2 hospitals, but has 5 or 6 within it's borders, ALS doesnt really do too much before the hospital setting

 

[pdk9]

"Specialty hazmat, in regards to law enforcement" is the straightest answer I can get out of anyone. Im guessing its for securing meth labs and Bomb manufacture sites


All of the City's rigs run as BLS units, with ALS Provided by AMR, or one of the other Local Ambulance providers when AMR hits Level Zero, which happens...often...Not as often as it did before Rural/Metro was purchased by AMR, but it still happens. Also when you're in a city that could use 1 or 2 hospitals, but has 5 or 6 within it's borders, ALS doesnt really do too much before the hospital setting

So is the “ATF” unit for the federal LE agency ATF, or does “ATF” stand for something else here?

That’s how it was when I was in NY...private ambulance company ran ALS ambulances and fly cars to run alongside BLS FD engines and/or ambulances.
In south FL, fire rescue handles all 911 calls since our rigs are ALS. In my county, AMR has a contract with the HOAs a few gated communities (ie Century Village), and we’ll get dispatched for any call (no matter how BLS it is) and then can request them as a BLS transport b/c their HOA covers the cost of AMR transports. However, AMR doesn’t always have rigs available or close by, so we end up taking the BLS transports often.
In Miami Dade County, though, AMR does get dispatched with fire rescue for obviously BLS calls on initial 911 dispatch

 

[pdk9]

I do mean combination leo/ff. Michigan sadly has the highest number of combined public safety department's in the country including the countries largest public safety department, the city of Kalamazoo.

Some of them do it well, others do it like crap. Seems to depend a lot on leadership and department culture. Whenever the concept is brought up people always point to the success in Kalamazoo but forget they've been doing it for 27 years. They burned down a lot of buildings in the first 15 years or so working out the kinks.

Yeah, it’s been phased out down here, but there are 2 counties in Florida where they call themselves Public safety agencies, but don’t have dual-certified personnel. For example, Broward Sheriff’s Office absorbed Broward County Fire Rescue about 15 yrs ago; all the fire trucks say “Broward Sheriff” on them, but the FFs are not dual-certified LEOs and the LEOs are not dual-certified FFs.

Pretty much The only time you see dual-certified LEOs/FFs nowadays in South Florida is SWAT medics. The SWAT medics are virtually always FD paramedics employed by the FD, but most depts require them to be certified as Reserve LEOs or go through the full LE academy so that they can carry weapons and make arrests during SWAT calls (when operating under the PD/SO).

 

[pdk9]

I've noticed the a lot of Florida departments don't seem to take truck work seriously. It's pretty evident when you have blocks of 10 story condos and the only ladder truck for miles is a 75' straight stick quint that's run first out as an engine. I've also noticed a lot of department's don't run many truck companies when compared to the size of the area they cover. Whole counties of over 1000 square miles and half a dozen truck companies doesn't really seem like sufficient coverage.

My county, in particular, has automatic aid (closest unit responds regardless of city lines/jurisdiction), so we only operate 6 Quints ourselves, b/c there are 12-15 additional Quint sticks/platforms (75-100 ft) closeby that are operated by the various city departments in our county. So, there isn’t a shortage in the # of aerials, b/c we always have 3-5 aerials in close proximity (except in the rural areas).

However, with regards to ladder size, myself and the ppl on apparatus committees feel that we should have more 100 ft quints, b/c a 75/78 ft quint won’t take you higher than the 3rd floor or 4th floor (if lucky) once you take into consideration setback of the house from where the rig is parked and obstacles + we’d rather have extra reach, than be fully-extended and come up short. Granted, there had always a very small need for a few 75 ft rigs in the small suburban communities and areas with tight streets, but that’s not so much of a concern now with the Ascendant and Metro single rear axle aerials that give you “up to” 107-100 ft vertical reach. Unfortunately, it all comes down to budget and ppl in control of the budget dictating what ppl on the line need/don’t need

I’m not against the Quints being used as engine companies in their 1st due area on smaller stuff (ie car fires) but I’m against the lack of widespread truck company training; it really falls on the shoulders of the officer and whether or not he/she is a good officer that takes classes and trains regularly with the crew OR you have a slug that isn’t so bright (we ALL have a few of those, unfortunately). My dept requires rope rescue and aerial ops certifications to bid an aerial seat (FF, chauffeur, or officer) but there is no mandate for truck/ventilation classes or minimum req.s for annual training :-(

 

[Doyle257]

So is the “ATF” unit for the federal LE agency ATF, or does “ATF” stand for something else here?

That is the impression I got, as well as it being part of the Arson unit.

 

[fireglen]

In Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
7 stations
5 engines, 2 Ladders, 1 Rescue,
7 Squads. 6 brush trucks


Minimum staffing is 3 on an Engine,
3 on Ladder, 2 on a Squad (Ambulance)
Rescue truck is manned by the 3 on the Engine Company that houses the truck.

 

[pdk9]

In Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
7 stations
5 engines, 2 Ladders, 1 Rescue,
7 Squads. 6 brush trucks


Minimum staffing is 3 on an Engine,
3 on Ladder, 2 on a Squad (Ambulance)
Rescue truck is manned by the 3 on the Engine Company that houses the truck.

What happens if the engine at the Rescue station is out on a call....is the rescue out of service (ie only ppl that that station are trained to use the special equipment, so a mutual aid rescue is needed), OR can crews from another engine/aerial pick up the rig on the way to a call that might need it?

Again, I hate how we have so many different terms for ambulances! When I hear “squad,” i think of an engine with special equipment or a heavy rescue.
Supposedly, the 1 dept in the Tri-county area went back to calling their ambulances MEDIC or MED (instead of rescue) b/c they donated 2 spare “rescues” to a dept right after Katrina and the receiving dept thought they were getting heavy rescues (not 2 ambulance), so it supposedly caused confusion and embarrassment

 

[Doyle257]

Again, I hate how we have so many different terms for ambulances! When I hear “squad,” i think of an engine with special equipment or a heavy rescue.
Supposedly, the 1 dept in the Tri-county area went back to calling their ambulances MEDIC or MED (instead of rescue) b/c they donated 2 spare “rescues” to a dept right after Katrina and the receiving dept thought they were getting heavy rescues (not 2 ambulance), so it supposedly caused confusion and embarrassment

At this end of NY(God only knows what happens beyond Syracuse and down into NYC) most ambulances (Perhaps all) are Identified by their owner/Operator, and 3 digit ID Number. (ie: AMR-257, LVAC-801, Twin City-224, Mercy-057)

Also in this area, a trend has started for smaller district to Switch from Heavy Rescues, to what you define as a Squad. It helps maintain ISO rating, while consolidating the fleet. We just ordered a Spartan Gladiator Side-Mount to replace our Heavy. it will be the 4th Squad in the county.

 

[fireglen]

What happens if the engine at the Rescue station is out on a call....is the rescue out of service (ie only ppl that that station are trained to use the special equipment, so a mutual aid rescue is needed), OR can crews from another engine/aerial pick up the rig on the way to a call that might need it?

Again, I hate how we have so many different terms for ambulances! When I hear “squad,” i think of an engine with special equipment or a heavy rescue.
Supposedly, the 1 dept in the Tri-county area went back to calling their ambulances MEDIC or MED (instead of rescue) b/c they donated 2 spare “rescues” to a dept right after Katrina and the receiving dept thought they were getting heavy rescues (not 2 ambulance), so it supposedly caused confusion and embarrassment

To answer the busy Engine question, they will send another company to that station and pick up the unit. It happens frequently for vehicle extrication calls. We all carry a set of Holmatro on the Engines.
Previously the Rescue was manned by our only Ladder crew. Two Engines were replaced with Quints and now they are Ladder Companies on each end of the City

With the old Ladder crew manpower another Engine Company was formed in an old house that had been shut down for a couple of years when a newer house was built.