Courtesy light induced road rage

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NY743EM

Member
Dec 3, 2015
21
NY
More and more lately, I seem to experience road rage drivers as a result of using courtesy lights. I rarely use them unless both 1)I am a measurable distance from scene/station and 2) we are short a second responder on a serious EMS call which would force passing off to mutual aid (adds 20+ minutes response time in my town). I drive safely, do not speed, beep or pass ever unless clearly given a point by/car pulls over, so it's certainly not my driving. Could it really be a function of just hating to be passed by another vehicle? In several instances drivers start yelling at me and it turns out they have no idea what a courtesy light is, especially a green one. I stuck an EMS sticker on my rear window in hopes to avoid confusion, people don't see it or don't care.

Today I was actually forced to stand down from responding to a serious mva because a driver decided to become enraged and tailgate me so pulled over and let him pass. No response is worth causing another incident. Then he proceeded to drive 10 mph in a one lane 45 zone. Today's incident makes me consider never using lighting until on scene to provide notice to other responders. Thoughts? Any similar experience in other areas of the US aside NY/CT?

Come to think of it, I do notice it driving the rig L&S too, but not nearly as bad as in the POV.
 

JazzDad

Member
Aug 5, 2011
5,165
USA
1. See if your local newspaper will run an editorial.

2. If you were responding without your lights, and were in a wreck, how do you think you would be treated in court?

Just two thoughts.
 

esprole

Member
Nov 5, 2014
17
Savannah, GA
I don't like the "courtesy light" system. Here, if you have a red light permit, you are an emergency vehicle which is the same as as an ambulance or fire truck. (Although, I don't recall provisions specific for EMS, only fire department volunteers, which in our county Fire/EMS are combined.) Lights visible for 360 degrees and a siren are required. Drivers are legally required to yield and can be cited for failure to yield(technically, you are requesting right of way, not automatically granted it).
 

Doyle257

Member
Jan 13, 2015
658
Cheektowaga, NY
I don't like the "courtesy light" system. Here, if you have a red light permit, you are an emergency vehicle which is the same as as an ambulance or fire truck. (Although, I don't recall provisions specific for EMS, only fire department volunteers, which in our county Fire/EMS are combined.) Lights visible for 360 degrees and a siren are required. Drivers are legally required to yield and can be cited for failure to yield(technically, you are requesting right of way, not automatically granted it).
NY's Provisions for lighting are as follow:
Green - EMS responders, courtesy, can also be used on Fire Apparatus when stationary. requires sign off by agency
Blue - Fire responders, Courtesy, Can be used on the rear of fire/police apparatus. requires sign off by agency
Red - Fire/police. Requires Right-of-way. requires sign off by agency, in the case of on POV, may also require county sheriff permit, dependent on county
White - May be used on the front/sides of Police/fire. should be off when vehicle is stationary.
Amber - Plows, tow trucks, other service vehicles. no permitting required.
Purple - Funeral Procession, unsure about permitting regulations.

at my end of NY, it happens on a sporadic basis, usually around rush hour times. But people are so distracted, they rarely give right-of-way to red lights, let alone Blue/green
 

CrownVic97

Member
May 21, 2010
3,350
Hazen, ND
Next time it happens, catch the tag and call State Patrol. That's what I'd do. Hindering an emergency responder in the performance of duty can cost them a lot of points on their license, an expensive fine, and possible jail time.
 

CHIEFOPS

Member
Jan 24, 2011
1,532
NYC
NY's Provisions for lighting are as follow:
Green - EMS responders, courtesy, can also be used on Fire Apparatus when stationary. requires sign off by agency
Blue - Fire responders, Courtesy, Can be used on the rear of fire/police apparatus. requires sign off by agency
Red - Fire/police. Requires Right-of-way. requires sign off by agency, in the case of on POV, may also require county sheriff permit, dependent on county
White - May be used on the front/sides of Police/fire. should be off when vehicle is stationary.
Amber - Plows, tow trucks, other service vehicles. no permitting required.
Purple - Funeral Procession, unsure about permitting regulations.

at my end of NY, it happens on a sporadic basis, usually around rush hour times. But people are so distracted, they rarely give right-of-way to red lights, let alone Blue/green

INCORRECT for NY.
RED- any AUTHORIZED EMERGENCY VEHICLE: police vehicle, fire vehicle, ambulance, emergency ambulance service vehicle (POVs included),
civil emergency vehicle, environmental response vehicle, sanitation patrol vehicle, hazardous materials vehicle, and ordnance disposal vehicle of the armed services of the United States.
 

CHIEFOPS

Member
Jan 24, 2011
1,532
NYC
Next time it happens, catch the tag and call State Patrol. That's what I'd do. Hindering an emergency responder in the performance of duty can cost them a lot of points on their license, an expensive fine, and possible jail time.

Failing to yield to an emergency vehicle in NYS is only a traffic violation and absent any other aggravating factor like an accident with an ensuing investigation it must be witnessed by the summonsing Police Officer.
 

CrownVic97

Member
May 21, 2010
3,350
Hazen, ND
Failing to yield to an emergency vehicle in NYS is only a traffic violation and absent any other aggravating factor like an accident with an ensuing investigation it must be witnessed by the summonsing Police Officer.
Hmmm.....that's pretty weak, but it's New York, so I shouldn't be too surprised. Laws are more strict up here when it comes to EMS/Fire responders and the driving public.
 

NPS Ranger

Member
May 21, 2010
1,988
Penn's Woods
People only do things if they believe there may be consequences if they don't do them. Nationwide everyone knows that you yield to flashing red lights & sirens. In many states where police use all blue, the same applies. If you don't yield, sooner or later it will cost you.

In states like NY-NJ-PA where volunteers use all blue, some people yield or give you the "courtesy" of moving over for you, and some subscribe to the "I don't HAVE to so I won't" school of thought. Sort of like "I don't stand for the Pledge of Allegiance because I don't HAVE to, it's a violation of my personal freedoms," yada yada yada. Absent a change in the law, you're not going to change the behavior of cretins.

New York made a particularly poor choice by making EMS volunteers use green. Remember in the way old days, "Green Cross for safety" for industrial first aid? The problem is that a driver from another state driving in NY and seeing a green light, either thinks it's a whacker or associates it with mall security like they've seen back home. Look on Youtube and see how many non-responder whackmobiles have amber/white/green flashing lights because in their state there's no law specifically forbidding it. Even within NY I'll bet a large percentage of drivers are clueless about green lights, especially if they live in a city with paid EMS and few volunteer EMS POV's.

So, until people lobby the legislature enough to change the law, if it was my vehicle I'd get some sort of upper windshield banner saying "EMS" or "EMERGENCY MEDICAL" or something similar. Maybe even in reverse print. And, if someone engages in road rage or deliberately obstructs you by driving 10 MPH in front of you, get their tag number and make an issue of it. You may save someone from future grief from the same idiot.
 
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Doyle257

Member
Jan 13, 2015
658
Cheektowaga, NY
INCORRECT for NY.
RED- any AUTHORIZED EMERGENCY VEHICLE: police vehicle, fire vehicle, ambulance, emergency ambulance service vehicle (POVs included),
civil emergency vehicle, environmental response vehicle, sanitation patrol vehicle, hazardous materials vehicle, and ordnance disposal vehicle of the armed services of the United States.
which I meant to imply by Police/Fire. I thought that was a sufficient explanation
 

JazzDad

Member
Aug 5, 2011
5,165
USA
I can't comment on courtesy lights. I just know how lawyers can take anything that the "prudent man" should or shouldn't do, and use it against you.
 

ShadowSwipe

Member
Mar 13, 2015
146
New Jersey
More and more lately, I seem to experience road rage drivers as a result of using courtesy lights. I rarely use them unless both 1)I am a measurable distance from scene/station and 2) we are short a second responder on a serious EMS call which would force passing off to mutual aid (adds 20+ minutes response time in my town). I drive safely, do not speed, beep or pass ever unless clearly given a point by/car pulls over, so it's certainly not my driving. Could it really be a function of just hating to be passed by another vehicle? In several instances drivers start yelling at me and it turns out they have no idea what a courtesy light is, especially a green one. I stuck an EMS sticker on my rear window in hopes to avoid confusion, people don't see it or don't care.

Today I was actually forced to stand down from responding to a serious mva because a driver decided to become enraged and tailgate me so pulled over and let him pass. No response is worth causing another incident. Then he proceeded to drive 10 mph in a one lane 45 zone. Today's incident makes me consider never using lighting until on scene to provide notice to other responders. Thoughts? Any similar experience in other areas of the US aside NY/CT?

Come to think of it, I do notice it driving the rig L&S too, but not nearly as bad as in the POV.


The problem is people are poorly educated on what courtesy lights are. They were never even touched on in my driver's ed class or during my practice driving hours. They're barely mentioned to new drivers. Green lights are pretty unusual to most people who don't know what courtesy lights are, so they probably view it as like a tow truck trying to pass them with ambers.

There really needs to be better education on what the laws are. Honestly NY should switch EMT's to blue as well, its pointless to have a different color for Fire & EMS and it just gets annoying if you volunteer for two agencies.

I also think that prior to their use, anyone seeking a permit for said lights should be mandated to take a defensive driving course and/or EVOC in order to help deal with these types of situations. Even though you're not running sirens and blowing intersections, having those skills for when people act crazy/stupid is important IMO. Most of the courtesy light laws are so outdated.

Ideally courtesy lights shouldn't be a thing, either you empower responders to drive like an appropriate emergency vehicle or you don't. I think the awkward middle ground courtesy lights stand on just puts people in weird positions where they are unsure of what to do. You don't want to create situations where drivers have no idea what to do, or its on them whether or not you get their quickly (as that kind of defeats the purpose does it not?).

NJ has this extraordinarily weird area where technically people are supposed to yield to you according to the law, but many still view them as courtesy lights, but you're not allowed to have 360 degree coverage. I'm not too familiar with how PA works, but most of these laws really need to be redesigned and the public needs to be better educated.
 
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Tony P

Moderator
Sep 13, 2015
1,940
Midwest, USA
Thread locked for failure to remain on topic after warned by admin. Take lighting law discussion to the above linked thread. This thread was to discuss road rage associated with courtesy lights...
 
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