Federal Signal PA300 discussion

shues

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 21, 2010
10,276
NW Indiana
Near as I can tell, the generation of PA300 with the wide, flat Horn/Siren switch and the 3x4 Molex connector, is the oldest generation of black-face PA300.
 

MtnMan

Member
Dec 20, 2012
1,533
Eastern PA
The PA300 was introduced circa 1983. I believe the silver front panel (similar to the PA200) was the first version.
 

Wailer

Member
May 24, 2010
2,290
Canada
The yelp tone sounded fairly consistent throughout the course of production, but the wail tone has changed over the years. The early PA300s (silver face and earliest black face units) have a slow rising wail tone. Later PA300s have faster rising wail tones.
 
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Aug 25, 2016
150
NYC
I find these sirens and all of the variations to be fascinating. Apologies in advance for my long rambling response.

Here in NYC the FDNY PA300 situation can be downright baffling. The typical FDNY PA300 (which is almost completely phased out of frontline units) is a black faced box with custom tones. They sound almost identical to an old silver face unit I have, with a slightly different yelp and no Hi-lo.

I've seen very few ancient units (mid to late 80's) on the street that have an extremely slow wind down that sounds vaguely reminiscent of non-FDNY early PA300's but I'm not even sure what they're running and can't find any YouTube videos of actual siren boxes replicating it.

To make things complicated, I've also seen some uncommon units that sound like they're running newer non-FDNY PA300's.

With such a huge fleet that has had to make urgent unexpected purchases in the past, hard to say what's out there. I'd like to collect a few different variations but it's probably impossible.
 
Aug 25, 2016
150
NYC
The yelp tone sounded fairly consistent throughout the course of production, but the wail tone has changed over the years. The early PA300s (silver face and earliest black face units) have a slow rising wail tone. Later PA300s have faster rising wail tones.

Speed and deepness of yelp seems to have varied over time. I've seen videos of old silver faced units that have really slow and deep tones, but I have sliver one that has a higher pitched fast one.
 
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Wailer

Member
May 24, 2010
2,290
Canada
Speed and deepness of yelp seems to have varied over time. I've seen videos of old silver faced units that have really slow and deep tones, but I have sliver one that has a higher pitched fast one.
You've heard more of them than me, so I can't disagree.

Where I live the city FD acquired trucks with PA300s from the late 1980s to early 2000s and that's where I noticed the change in the wail tone. One had the early slow rising wail tone, another had a wail tone that sounded somewhat like a Unitrol 80K, another had a wail tone that sounded a bit like a Code 3 V-CON, and another had a wail tone that sounded a bit like a Carson SA-450.
 
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WhelenNDealin

Member
Aug 6, 2017
575
Ontario, Canada
Just got it in the mail yesterday from the Classifieds, but it's a black-faced PA-300 and I'm not sure if the serial number means anything with regards to production date, but it's SN is 00049. Is this an earlier black PA-300?
 

lotsofbars

Member
Jul 20, 2010
1,999
NYC, New York
I've bought 3 PA300's from the mid 90's at one time, from the same site. When I tested them, they all had noticably different wails. One was deeper an didn't rise nearly as high as the other two. One was higher than the other two, and the third one was in the middle and the wail had more range. I think PA300's had the most inconsistent wails of any siren that's been mass produced.

FDNY's PA300 also varies greatly. Spare trucks that I hear responding around the city have anything from a high pitched wail to a very low pitched wail. There's not really any consistency, but they all have very similar tone, even when the pitch is high or low.
 

WhelenNDealin

Member
Aug 6, 2017
575
Ontario, Canada
lotsofbars, now you have me interested in collecting PA-300s just for how variable they are! Same model, different siren. That's what it seems like.

When I was looking on the Fed Sig site at PA-300 manuals, I saw that there's a version that had the Priority tone instead of the Hi-Lo. Now this version I'm interested in! I've yet to see anyone demo one on YouTube, but I haven't really looked much. Anyone know how common they were? Can't say I'm the biggest fan of Hi-Lo; Priority would be a lot more interesting. Also, given how inconsistent the PA-300 seems to be, there could very well be the same inconsistency between the Priority tones. If that's the case, there could be some very interesting versions of the Priority tone out there. Just a guess, though.
 
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WhelenNDealin

Member
Aug 6, 2017
575
Ontario, Canada
Have to agree with you on that one. Can't say that I'm a fan either. Really reminds me of the Intersection tone on the D&R Intimidator. You can hear it in this video:



Still, the more PA-300s I hear, it's as if every single unit sounds different. My best guess is that when assembling them, Fed Sig used a mashup of leftover older components and newer components and/or components from different suppliers. Me personally, I'd get two different-sounding PA-300s, pop them open and very closely compare the components on the boards in terms of manufacturer, date of mfg (if that's even possible) and anything else that might explain the differences. Sure, they'll be the same in terms of their function, be it a resistor or a transistor and so on, but tiny differences in the components themselves may cause all of these differences between units. That's my best guess but I'm no electronics expert. It could also be tiny differences in the circuit boards themselves or how they were assembled. An electrical engineer could probably find the reason. There has to be a reason for it. Besides the electronic components in a unit, would the speaker cause that huge of a difference?
 
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MtnMan

Member
Dec 20, 2012
1,533
Eastern PA
Differences in sound are caused by the capacitors and resistors in the analog sweep and tone oscillator circuits. A lot of this is due to spontaneous variance in components. Electrolytic capacitors (the cylindrical ones) can deviate +/- 20% or more when new, and may drift more over time. Other sound variations (e.g., the NYPD versions) were intentional modifications. Federal Signal produced custom specs for a number of agencies, but I haven't seen much documentation on the details.

Also, at least on early PA300s, there's a variable resistor (R57) for frequency adjustment, which is factory-set and sealed.

If you want to do more detective work, the components to look at are:

Wail: R23, R26, C11
Yelp: R23, R24, R26, C11
Hi-Lo: R23, R25, R26, R27, R28, R29, C11
Manual peak: R23, R25, R26, C11
Tone oscillator (VCO): R46, R47, R57 (variable), C21
 
Aug 25, 2016
150
NYC
Wail: R23, R26, C11
Yelp: R23, R24, R26, C11
Hi-Lo: R23, R25, R26, R27, R28, R29, C11
Manual peak: R23, R25, R26, C11
Tone oscillator (VCO): R46, R47, R57 (variable), C21

I think we may have discussed this in the past, but does knowing all of this mean I could send you a siren box for you to customize to a certain spec (i.e. FDNY) ?
 

MtnMan

Member
Dec 20, 2012
1,533
Eastern PA
I think we may have discussed this in the past, but does knowing all of this mean I could send you a siren box for you to customize to a certain spec (i.e. FDNY) ?
That's exactly the discussion I was thinking of while replying to this thread! Yes, if I knew the component values that Federal used, I could certainly replicate them. Lacking those details, I could adjust to match a good quality sample of the desired sound.

OR... if you, ProPatria, or anyone else is interested, I could hack an old PA300 with a breakout box, so you can try substituting components and experimenting for yourselves.
 

shues

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 21, 2010
10,276
NW Indiana
From https://www.fedsig.com/resource-document/file/8032

Wail:
- R23 1000 Ohm
- R26 82K Ohm 2%
- C11 22UF, 15V, Tantalum

Yelp:
- R23 1000 Ohm
- R24 4.7K Ohm, 2%
- R26 82K Ohm, 2%
- C11 22UF, 15V, Tantalum

Hi-Lo:
- R23 1000 Ohm
- R25 22K Ohm, 2%
- R26 82K Ohm, 2%
- R27 33K Ohm
- R28 47K Ohm
- R29 68K Ohm, 2%
- C11 22UF, 15V, Tantalum

Manual peak:
- R23 1000 Ohm
- R25 22K Ohm, 2%
- R26 82K Ohm, 2%
- C11 22UF, 15V, Tantalum

Tone oscillator (VCO):
- R46 68K Ohm
- R47 1.5 Megohm
- R57 200K Ohm, Potentiometer
- C21 0.15UF, 5%, 100V, Poly
 

WhelenNDealin

Member
Aug 6, 2017
575
Ontario, Canada
Jeez, I really wish that my grandfather was still with us. Self-taught electronics wizard. He'd have this figured out in about two seconds flat. Hell, knowing him, he'd design his own version of the PA-300 and add at least a couple tones.

MtnMan, I'm definitely interested in what you were saying about the breakout box. I'd be looking to modify the PA-300 that I have to have a slower windup and wind-down and maybe cycle a bit slower. A deeper yelp would be interesting as well. I'd be looking for something that has that distinct old-school siren sound. I still have to look at several YouTube videos to get a firmer idea of what I'm looking for, though.
 
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Wailer

Member
May 24, 2010
2,290
Canada
I'd be looking to modify the PA-300 that I have to have a slower windup and wind-down and maybe cycle a bit slower. A deeper yelp would be interesting as well. I'd be looking for something that has that distinct old-school siren sound. I still have to look at several YouTube videos to get a firmer idea of what I'm looking for, though.
Look for an early PA300 with the slow rising wail tone and find a way of lowering the pitch. I've heard one, and it actually sounds pretty good.
 
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WhelenNDealin

Member
Aug 6, 2017
575
Ontario, Canada
Look for an early PA300 with the slow rising wail tone and find a way of lowering the pitch. I've heard one, and it actually sounds pretty good.

That's exactly what I had in mind! I was thinking of something that sounded like a bit of a mashup between an early PA-300 and a PA-200. I also had an older Carson/SVP SA-400 or a Whelen WS-222 or 224 in mind as well. That nice, rich slow rising wail tone with an equally rich lower pitch. Jeez, it sounds like we're audiophiles talking about turntables and speakers :D. Difference between us and them is that we're not going to shell out $5000 for a set of headphones that have an audio range that's only partially audible to the human ear. We shell out our money on things that are entirely audible to the human ear (and all human ears a couple of miles away ;) ). I guess that we are audiophiles in one sense.

I'll have to browse the depths of YouTube a bit more to get a really firm idea of what I'm looking for and post once it's found.

My two cents on YouTube is that you either find exactly what you're looking for in short order, or you find a few truckloads of garbage. Usually the latter. Only after suffering through countless lousy videos do you find what you're looking for. Found a video of an older silver-faced PA-300, but the siren was seriously buggered. Time had taken its toll on that poor siren. It was tragic to watch, really.
 
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Aug 25, 2016
150
NYC
There's a YouTube video of a deep sounding silver faced PA300 that sounds like what you're describing. I wonder if it's the one you mention towards the end of your comment.

When I'm back home I'll post it in here.
 

WhelenNDealin

Member
Aug 6, 2017
575
Ontario, Canada
There's a YouTube video of a deep sounding silver faced PA300 that sounds like what you're describing. I wonder if it's the one you mention towards the end of your comment.

When I'm back home I'll post it in here.

Is it the one where the airhorn tone sounds like a beep and the video was taken with a very nice scenic background? If so, it's absolutely tragic that the siren didn't age nicely or wasn't treated well over the years. Only on ELB will you find people saying that it's tragic when a siren or another piece of warning equipment is misused, doesn't work well or has been beaten to hell :D .
 

WhelenNDealin

Member
Aug 6, 2017
575
Ontario, Canada
The PA200 (when working normally) is a high pitched screamer like the sirens we hear today.

Ah, gotcha. I've heard a couple of PA-200s on YouTube that sounded a bit like what I was looking for, but if a properly-functioning one is higher pitched, then I'll pass on that. Not the sound I'm looking for. What about the PA-150 or any of the earlier PA models? Of them, which would you say have deepest, richest wail and yelp tones, cycle a bit slower, and have a nice slow wind-up and wind-down?
 

WhelenNDealin

Member
Aug 6, 2017
575
Ontario, Canada
Haha that's it, found some others that may capture that deep sound you mentioned before:


This is actually a PA500 but sounds identical to the 300. A nice deep yelp on it:


Audio clipping aside, that silver PA-300 sounds almost spot-on. I'd love to have that exact siren. The PA-500 has a nice enough wind-down, but it doesn't have that deep, rich old-school siren sound. As a side-note, it sure as heck sounds like that stock siren sound effect that's overused like crazy ;) .

Jeez, I'm picky...
 

Wailer

Member
May 24, 2010
2,290
Canada
What about the PA-150 or any of the earlier PA models? Of them, which would you say have deepest, richest wail and yelp tones, cycle a bit slower, and have a nice slow wind-up and wind-down?

The PA150 has the same siren oscillator circuit as the PA200, so you wouldn't like that one either.

What you could consider is a late 1960s Federal PA15A (serial numbers beginning with 1B, 1C, or 1D) or PA20A (serial numbers beginning with 2B, 2C, or 2D). Those sirens have a slow rising and falling wail tone and a deep throaty sounding yelp. Click on the video link below to hear a demo.

 

WhelenNDealin

Member
Aug 6, 2017
575
Ontario, Canada
The PA150 has the same siren oscillator circuit as the PA200, so you wouldn't like that one either.

What you could consider is a late 1960s Federal PA15A (serial numbers beginning with 1B, 1C, or 1D) or PA20A (serial numbers beginning with 2B, 2C, or 2D). Those sirens have a slow rising and falling wail tone and a deep throaty sounding yelp. Click on the video link below to hear a demo.


Wailer, is that you? If so, great guitar work, but even better siren work. You've made a fellow Canadian very proud. If it is you in that video, did you ever do radio?

The wail's very much what I had in my mind. Beautiful slow rise and fall and pitch range. Shame that it seems to be used it a lot as a stock siren sound.

The yelp tone is sheer, unabashed beauty. That's what I think of when I think of a good yelp. If God uses warning equipment, He most certainly uses that yelp. That yelp is like "Warning Equipment Porn", to be honest. Gentlemen, get your minds out of the gutters ;) . What I mean is that it's almost too good to be true and it's one of those things where you have a moment when you see or hear it. We all have our own ideas of what "Warning Equipment Porn" entails, be it a Skybolt, a PA20A, a Q2B, a perfectly synced AeroDynic or whatever else makes you have a moment when you see/hear it.

Jeez, even on the PA20A, even the Hi-Lo sounds good. I normally can't stand most Hi-Lo tones, but it has a great sound to it. What a Hi-Lo should sound like, IMHO.

Note to self: Get one or several of these sirens.
 

WhelenNDealin

Member
Aug 6, 2017
575
Ontario, Canada
Here's a recording of my PA-300. It took a few recordings, adjusting the microphone gain and position and cleaning up the audio file a couple of times before it sounded right. I'm considering making another recording because this one can be improved upon. Never pass a fault.

Let me know what you all think. Had to put it in a zip file so that I could attach it.
 

Attachments

  • Federal Signal PA-300 Recording.zip
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Wailer

Member
May 24, 2010
2,290
Canada
Here's a recording of my PA-300..

Sounds like a newer PA300. The wail tone rises and falls somewhat like a Code 3 V-CON siren, but it's lower pitched.

Yes that is me in the video. I like being goofy. I called the siren a piece of musical equipment because those particular versions of the PA15A and PA20A sing a sweet melody that is music to my ears.

Those sirens were replaced by the PA15A series 1E and PA20A series 2E in the 1970s. 1E and 2E are screamers - they don't sing.
 
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WhelenNDealin

Member
Aug 6, 2017
575
Ontario, Canada
Sounds like a newer PA300. The wail tone rises and falls somewhat like a Code 3 V-CON siren, but it's lower pitched.

Yes that is me in the video. I like being goofy. I called the siren a piece of musical equipment because those particular versions of the PA15A and PA20A sing a sweet melody that is music to my ears.

Those sirens were replaced by the PA15A series 1E and PA20A series 2E in the 1970s. 1E and 2E are screamers - they don't sing.


I agree that they're like musical equipment, but will take it a step further and say that they're like a high end turntable in terms of their ability to produce beautiful, deep, rich and warm tones. Kind of like the Thorens TD-124 (with an SME-3009 R arm and a Shure cartridge, of course) of sirens. Their yelp is simply outstanding. A pleasure to listen to, really. To me, it's as rich as biting into a stick of butter. I'm puzzled as to why the warning equipment companies don't look back to the classics and try to emulate their tones. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Then again, music production went from warm and rich vinyl to cold and sharp CDs. I try to liken old sirens vs. new sirens to vinyl vs. CDs. The new sirens sound sharper and cleaner, but they just lack the depth, richness and warmth of the oldies. It just isn't the same and doesn't have that same satisfaction to listen to, not that they're not enjoyable to listen to. Forget systems with a thousand tones, just stick to the basics and do them really well.

The PA-300 that I have is one of the older black-faced models with the grey paddle switch and the 3x4 Molex connector. Serial number is 00049. Funny that you brought up the V-CON. I was listening to a V-CON not five minutes ago and noted the similarities between its wail and that of my PA-300.

Strange how whenever I wake up in the middle of the night, I watch warning equipment videos and post on here and those do the trick to put me back in bed. I don't know why listening to siren tones is strangely soothing. Works better than warm milk. I've probably just officially gone off the deep end and have yet to realize it. I think that my wife just doesn't have the heart to tell me and secretly wishes that she signed a pre-nup :D .
 

Wailer

Member
May 24, 2010
2,290
Canada
The early Smith & Wesson Magnum series electronic sirens with the large pushbuttons sound close to the late 1960s Federal sirens. I remember hearing them back in the mid to late 1970s. Here is a video clip of one with a Dietz Omnisound label.

 

WhelenNDealin

Member
Aug 6, 2017
575
Ontario, Canada
The early Smith & Wesson Magnum series electronic sirens with the large pushbuttons sound close to the late 1960s Federal sirens. I remember hearing them back in the mid to late 1970s. Here is a video clip of one with a Dietz Omnisound label.


IMO, this is easily on par with the PA-15A and PA-20A series that you mentioned (sorry, Wailer). The French have a word to describe how this siren sounds, translated as: unctuous. Don't bother looking up the online definitions, because they're hardly positive. I'm using the definition that culinary types like to throw around: rich and luxurious yet silky smooth. The rise and fall of the wail is deep, rich and sublime and the yelp nears perfection and most certainly reminds me of a Signal Stat, as CHEFOPS pointed out. I've always loved the Signal-Stat yelps, I have to add. Hands down, this siren has a perfect old-school siren sound to it.

Good lord, I'm sounding like some sort of wine critic when I describe those siren tones.

How much do these usually go for?

I watched Wailer's PA-15A/PA-20A video as comparison. One thing that I forgot to say is Wailer, your accent sounds a bit like you're from Northern Ontario. Bit of a "North of the Watershed" accent there ;) . Also, every time I see a PA-20A, I vaguely hear: "1-Adam-12, 1-Adam-12, a 211 in progress..."

As a side-note, if you ever want to watch a film with a ton of NYPD Signal Stat sirens and crossbars in use, watch "The Police Tapes" (1977). Incredible documentary; very raw. Well worth a watch. I'll try and rip the scenes with the sirens from my DVD copy and post on another thread.
 

WhelenNDealin

Member
Aug 6, 2017
575
Ontario, Canada
TRIVIA ALERT- the Police Tapes was Steven Bochco's inspiration for the camera techniques used in Hill Street Blues, it was the first time handheld cameras and 'rapid cuts' were used for a TV production

As a rabid Hill Street Blues fan, once I found out that this documentary was Bochco's inspiration for the camera techniques used in HSB, I got myself a copy of it. Great documentary that inspired one of the finest shows to ever grace television. You can see those camera techniques in the Roll Call scenes, of course, but watch the pilot episode (Hill Street Station) if you really want to see a less refined, more raw version of the handheld camera techniques during the Roll Call scene. The famous one where Esterhaus has everyone check in their prohibited weapons for inspection. Washington pulls out a sawed-off that we strangely never see during the rest of the series. LaRue has a backup pistol that we also never see, either. Can't remember what Hill and Renko had, but they were supposed to be killed off in the pilot. Darn good decision to keep them on as regular characters. Always loved Renko's antics and Bobby was easily one of the most powerful characters in that show and Micheal Warren could easily have been Denzel Washington (who, of course, was on St. Elsewhere at that point in time; HSB's medical competition, but also a great show). I always get flak for saying this, but LaRue was always one of my favourite characters. A lovable rogue. Slimy, but once he was sober, he could be counted on to do the right thing in the end. No true HSB fan would ever exclude Esterhaus from their list of favourite characters either.
 
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Wailer

Member
May 24, 2010
2,290
Canada
The new sirens sound sharper and cleaner, but they just lack the depth, richness and warmth of the oldies. It just isn't the same and doesn't have that same satisfaction to listen to, not that they're not enjoyable to listen to.

The new sirens are high-pitched - that's the problem. That high-pitched thing took off with the PA15A series 1E and PA20A series 2E in the 1970s. New sirens could be designed to produced the 1960s low-pitched tones, but the siren manufacturers seem too infatuated with the high pitched sounds.

One thing that I forgot to say is Wailer, your accent sounds a bit like you're from Northern Ontario.

Nope, I'm from the prairies.

As a side-note, if you ever want to watch a film with a ton of NYPD Signal Stat sirens and crossbars in use, watch "The Police Tapes" (1977). Incredible documentary; very raw. Well worth a watch. I'll try and rip the scenes with the sirens from my DVD copy and post on another thread.

The Signal Stat 'Stat VI' with hi-lo and yelp tones only (as was used by the NYPD) was likely manufactured in the same factory as the early Smith & Wesson Magnum series sirens. The yelp sounds the same.
 
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