Good finds of the day !

[Skulldigger]

This popped up on CL last night. Called the guy this morning and he had already talked to someone else. He said let me find out if he is coming and I will call you back. Called back an hour later and said he couldn't get an answer so if I wanted it come and get it. So I did.

It's a Federal 17 in great shape.


You can pinpoint the manufacture date down to a three year period even without the serial number. Anyone want to take a guess?









Anybody know what his little device is? I have only seen it on a few models.




After leaving there we dropped into a small antique shop and found this little Model 14 A2. Dates between 1963 and 1976. Bad wiring and was dirty so they thought it had a bad motor. They had merely wrapped the wire a couple of loops around the positive post.. Bad contact. Cleaned the contacts and put a connector on the wire and it runs very smooth and quite. Will probably put this one up for sale. It had two domes; amber and a red one. The amber one needs some TLC but no cracks, should clean up just fine. The red one is almost good as new. When I first saw it the domes were stacked and I thought it was a horizontally split dome.. I was excited for about 2 seconds... Lol..







Good day of hunting and it did not hurt the wallet at all !

 

[kitn1mcc]

looks like a capacitor

 

[coop359]

The bulb holder in your 17 looks like it is from a 14 light. Maybe military.

 

[dmathieu]

Interesting Model 17.
Looks like a military version Model 17 with the newer model 14 bulb cage common on military version 17s. If that's the case, the badge vintage and info is wrong for the light.
The capacitor may be military spec. They added these to lights to help eliminate radio interference. I have a military Fire Ball with capacitors installed.
Check to see if it is really 6 volt.

 

[jph2]

Both nice finds and the 17 is cool, especially the badge.

 

[dmathieu]

 

[Skulldigger]

Interesting Model 17.
Check to see if it is really 6 volt.

Hmmmm... How do you tell if it is really 6 volt? Let me take it apart and see if the motor is stamped 6 volt, not sure they are all stamped with voltage.

 

[Skulldigger]

Well closer inspection reveals I made a rookie mistake. This is probably a Frankenstein. This is a Model 17 with a 184 gear box and motor and a 14 bulb cage. I don't think the guy who sold it to me knew the difference and it was not intentional. My bad for not taking the closer look myself. Hmmmmm... It's still a nice looking light, especially as it is cleaning up.

 

[Skulldigger]

If anyone has a fat round motor such as in the 17 or the 184 can you check your number against the number on my motor. Trying to determine voltage. 12 or 6.

8240-A420-12F
15094 07 50

 

[ex416]

i have a black fat beacon ray motor. it's stamped 12V with the following numbers:
8420 A420 12-1
16120 01 424

 

[ERIC6913]

Ok gotta chime in on this one. No Frankenstein here, this is a model 17 military spec. Everything is correct as it should be, except for the badge.
Yes, that is a capacitor. Capacitors filter DC voltage.

 

[Skulldigger]

Ok gotta chime in on this one. No Frankenstein here, this is a model 17 military spec. Everything is correct as it should be, except for the badge.

Thank you for chiming in, I was feeling a little bummed out about it. This is good to know.

 

[Maxim2Eng]

If it's mil spec, it may be a 24v motor or that capacitor is a voltage reducer. Check the bulbs for volt id. Still, a great find. BTW, it appears to be an early 17 skirt and dome (broad "shoulders" where skirt meets dome, and slightly tapered sides on the dome)...Bonus!

 

[ERIC6913]

Mil Spec 17's were offered in two Voltages, 14v and 24v.
Again, the capacitor acts as a voltage filter, not reducer. I am 100% positive on this.

 

[Skulldigger]

The bulbs are not marked but they are identical filiments as a 4416. Shine bright at 12v, dim at 6, so i am sure they are 12v. The motor runs a good speed at 6 volts and only slightly faster at 12. It is larger than a 6v motor I have that goes to a 17. If i put 12v on that one it zooms, so i am doubting it being a 6. I have not had a chance to disassemble the light yet to look for more evidence. Will do that tonight when i get home.

 

[Skulldigger]

OK.. I am taking this thing apart. It is quite dirty on the inside but in great shape. The interesting device of debate reveals that everyone is correct ! It is a Spargue Hypass capacitor. 20 amp, .25-200 D.C. Just doing some quick research all the data I am finding is in 1950's catalogs. That date makes me happy ! Perhaps the tag is not too off on a date ! It filters RF signals from radios and filters devices from radio and vice versa.

"The metal case flanged capacitors were used in some military and high-end equipment to totally seal the enclosure for RF. The AC or DC (check the ratings) was run into and out of the enclosure through the capacitor."

So we confirm the use and the military connection and likely a 1950's design. Very exciting ! If you have a 1950's aircraft you need one of these, see several adds for these.

 

[Skulldigger]

There are some modification although basic to make the different gear and power contacts work on this light. One of them in particular is to the contact plate for the bulb power brushes. The mounting screws angle were altered and the new screws were tapped and threaded and the plate, removable on a 17 is riveted, showing this was a manufacturing alteration and not a field change or something someone did to fix a broken light !

 

[dmathieu]

Check with Eric, but I'm pretty sure that this bulb holder assy. was not available until sometime in the 60s.

 

[Skulldigger]

Check with Eric, but I'm pretty sure that this bulb holder assy. was not available until sometime in the 60s.

According to his previous posts, the Model 14 series A2 premiered in 1963. But I wonder if it is possible that this bulb holder design predates the 14 slightly. Maybe.. There are a few differences when I compare this bulb holder to my Model 14 A2. The sides of the 17's is smooth on both sides and the 14 has two ridges on one side. The 14 mounts to the axle with a 1/4 head screw and this 17 has two flat head screws of the same material as the bulb holders. On the 14 the cards holding the brush mounts is riveted to the holders. On this 17 they are on there with the same type of flat head screws. The lack of riveting may suggest that it was not being mass produced at the time.

There is no patent for the model 14, the patents mentioned are for the 17 and they just considered modifications. But there are patents they used mentioned in the 1963 filing for the Visibar and Model 11. One of the patents for the Model 11 is based on an earlier patent of a bulb holder from 1938. So one must question when they started modifying and using a similar design?



All speculation and probably nothing more than that. This light was likely modified in the 60's but it is intriguing to wonder if there is not something more interesting here.

 

[stansdds]

Very early production model 14's had smooth sided bulb holders. I have no idea of when or why the ribs were later added to one side, but the design was changed fairly early during production and without a change in the series numbers. The tag on the skirt indicates 1957, but this is well before Federal introduced the cast aluminum bulb holder. I expect you have what started life as a 14 VDC military 17 and somewhere along the line either the badge was replaced or, and more likely the case, the beacon was damaged and replaced with this skirt which already had a badge on it.

 

[ERIC6913]

Very early production model 14's had smooth sided bulb holders. I have no idea of when or why the ribs were later added to one side, but the design was changed fairly early during production and without a change in the series numbers. The tag on the skirt indicates 1957, but this is well before Federal introduced the cast aluminum bulb holder. I expect you have what started life as a 14 VDC military 17 and somewhere along the line either the badge was replaced or, and more likely the case, the beacon was damaged and replaced with this skirt which already had a badge on it.

I would agree with this as well. Ribs were added more than likely for structural rigidity.

 

[ERIC6913]

This would be the proper tag for the beacon.

 

[Skulldigger]

I expect you have what started life as a 14 VDC military 17 and somewhere along the line either the badge was replaced or, and more likely the case, the beacon was damaged and replaced with this skirt which already had a badge on it.

I think you are correct no doubt. I just tend to think out loud about things. I find more interesting aspects as I disassemble it. it is truly a hybrid of 3 models. It is 98% model 17. Although it has a 184 like axle it still uses the grounding brush against the axle like the 17. The top of the axle is smooth instead of cross hatched like you would see on the 184.

I'm sharing for those who are interested in design variations.

Left the 184 Axel / Right the Axel to this 17.



A normal 17 is a hollow brass tube that the positive contact rod runs through.



The base plate is a Model 17 although with only subtle differences. There is an additional hole for the wire and the mounting holes are larger to hold a larger threaded rod.

Regular model 17 on Left, this one on the right.



Here are the bulb holders

 

[ERIC6913]

Remember Military Spec. requirements are pretty stringent. They basically require any item to be very tough and durable, if not bullet proof LOL. For the Model 17, rivet connections are just pressure connections, as where to nut and bolt are more positive connections if you know what I mean.

 

[Skulldigger]

Well I got it cleaned up.. Rehab not restore and I think I am happy with it. Going to look into polishing the chrome a little more. I am looking for some bumpers for the dome, and will get a base gasket. The clearance on this dome with those bulb holders is tight.. It has to be adjusted just right so they don't scrape. Then I am debating on whether to add the red back into the tag... any thoughts?