Good lights ruined by split flash

rwo978

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May 21, 2010
5,196
ND, USA

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio

Zapp Brannigan

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 23, 2010
3,580
.
OH NO!!!!!!


A department's new ambulances due for delivery are SPLIT FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

split fail.jpg
 
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foxtrot5

New Member
Sep 26, 2011
3,002
Charleston Area, SC, US
Zapp Brannigan said:
OH NO!!!!!!

A department's new ambulances due for delivery are SPLIT FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell them to fix it!

Travelin Man said:
What's not NFPA compliant?

NFPA regulates not just where the lights are, but also how they flash. With split patterns, a lot of lights become non-compliant.
 
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JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
foxtrot5 said:
Tell them to fix it!



NFPA regulates not just where the lights are, but also how they flash. With split patterns, a lot of lights become non-compliant.

NFPA and KKK the two main standards used for ambulances specific light size, intensity/output, type, placement and pattern (kkk). Pinwheel is most certainly ruining pattern compliance required by KKK. Depending on how you interpret the mounting location requirements etc these also don't fit other requirements too. Switch half of them to solid and take a video before making them all solid. I bugs me that manufacturers ship such unsafe equipment.


edit--NFPA and KKK are now updated to be very similar, calling for sequence, placement, photometric standards, zone/height/placement, switching/mode... but not technically pattern. These pinwheels fail the sequence portion.
 

Travelin Man

Member
Jul 9, 2010
295
Central Virginia
foxtrot5 said:
NFPA regulates not just where the lights are, but also how they flash. With split patterns, a lot of lights become non-compliant.

There is no section in NFPA 1901 nor 1917 that addresses emergency light warning patterns. Addressed are placement, candela, lumens, use of white and amber lights, and the like. However, patterns aren't.


I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all, but I'm carrying copies of 1901 and 1917 in my briefcase, as this is one of my specialties on the two apparatus committees I've been on for the past 13 years.
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
Travelin Man said:
There is no section in NFPA 1901 nor 1917 that addresses emergency light warning patterns. Addressed are placement, candela, lumens, use of white and amber lights, and the like. However, patterns aren't.

I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all, but I'm carrying copies of 1901 and 1917 in my briefcase, as this is one of my specialties on the two apparatus committees I've been on for the past 13 years.


KKK used to mention pattern calling for double or quad I think, but now they do what NFPA does.... NFPA does not specifically mention pattern of each head, but does require certain lights to be on at the same time, thus synched......


NFPA and KKK aren't law, just standards to guide decisions and limit liability. These pinwheel patterns even if you can loophole them through aren't limiting liability at all. The sequence chart for NFPA and KKK is now the same. White center and grill/intersections flashed against red corners. If you meet that minimum NFPA I guess you could add all the pinwheels you want... NFPA does have a specific line allowing steady burn.

Captures.JPG
 

shues

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 21, 2010
10,276
NW Indiana
Travelin Man said:
There is no section in NFPA 1901 nor 1917 that addresses emergency light warning patterns. Addressed are placement, candela, lumens, use of white and amber lights, and the like. However, patterns aren't.

I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all, but I'm carrying copies of 1901 and 1917 in my briefcase, as this is one of my specialties on the two apparatus committees I've been on for the past 13 years.

I do not doubt that you are well-versed after all those years. However, my gut tells me that there must be something, somewhere. Otherwise products like the Whelen L31HRFN probably would not exist. The L31HRFN is a special version of the L31 beacon, made only in red, that has only a tiny subset of the standard L31 flash patterns:


ai.imgur.com_70TdlTX.png


Source: http://www.whelen.com/install/138/13894.pdf
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
shues said:
I do not doubt that you are well-versed after all those years. However, my gut tells me that there must be something, somewhere. Otherwise products like the Whelen L31HRFN probably would not exist. The L31HRFN is a special version of the L31 beacon, made only in red, that has only a tiny subset of the standard L31 flash patterns:

ai.imgur.com_70TdlTX.png


Source: http://www.whelen.com/install/138/13894.pdf


That's because they have a rate requirement and a sequence requirement, which eliminates many patterns. I have NFPA 1917 open now and it's very sequence, rate and output oriented.
 

nerdly_dood

Member
Jun 15, 2010
2,312
Georgia
Side lights are alright with those 900s, but the front... :no:

 

DJIceman97

Member
Dec 22, 2012
357
Northeast Kentucky
Chief got a new truck, and as good of a guy he is, I would not stand for how he has it lit up. All Code 3/SOS products, interior LED bar, with decent pattern...SOS Ghost's to side red/clear (not bad, could be better but enough for side), 4 grille lights and 2 on mirrors, solid color split fail, and 6 similar to an Outer Edge on the rear, split fail as well. Chief likes it, so I can't say much, but...
 
May 23, 2013
458
nc
RossBlitz said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzSJFUhREcs


Came across this on youtube...


This has to to be one of the least effective lighting setup's I've seen on a truck.... :duh:

the truck has potential, maby if they have it, set them all to steady burn and wire to a flasher and should look pretty sick


the front looks like "want to be oscilasers" and the back looks like a seizure waiting to happin, they could take 4 of the rear lights out and put them in other places, and leave it red/amber in back alternating and what knot


ive never noticed things like this till now, can be dangerous to personnel going to call with a f'ed up lighting package and get hurt, ive seen less be more effective than that much out of sync
 

Jarred J.

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May 21, 2010
11,580
Shelbyville, TN
just needs that siren with the intersection tone that sounds like a gambling machine
 

zakovermyer

Member
Jan 29, 2013
25
Illinois

The Engine at 0:40 is somewhat alright, since they are flashed red/blue. But the squad at 1:40... :weird:


- Front lights are red/blue flashed together


- Bumper lights are Red/blue diagonal from eachother, but flashed top/bottom.
 

Rhinojoe

Member
May 26, 2010
83
Exempt
JohnMarcson said:
So time for me to vent my pet peeve....

I'm sick of seeing nice light heads ruined by split, X and pinwheel flash... No matter the size of the head making it split flash decreases it's effectiveness...


Large chunks of light flashing only the same colors at the same time just plain works better. Split heads end up looking like a twinkle or a blurr... pinwheel and X don't show up at all. I truly think splitting a head in any way is pure gimmick.


Some examples-

Agreed,


As much as I don't agree with some CA. lighting laws the California Highway Patrol wrote a very indepth "White Paper" and comparitive study on color and flash rates/patterns.


I can't find a copy. It's about approx. 5-10 years old, (Sorry my CRS kicking in).


Come on all you Steady Red guys help a brother out and post a copy.


RJ.
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
The Engine at 0:40 is somewhat alright, since they are flashed red/blue. But the squad at 1:40... :weird:


- Front lights are red/blue flashed together


- Bumper lights are Red/blue diagonal from eachother, but flashed top/bottom.
It was a one Q, two horn, confusing purple fire eater....   a one Q, two horn, confusing purple fire eater....     sure seems strange to me.
 
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okc_f150

Member
Oct 3, 2013
318
Oklahoma City
Why don't the manufacturers STOP MAKING THESE PATTERNS?! If they have EVER looked at a single post on the forum they would know, nobody likes these.

You can't fix stupid guys... 
 
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JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
Why don't the manufacturers STOP MAKING THESE PATTERNS?! If they have EVER looked at a single post on the forum they would know, nobody likes these.
No, lots of people like these.  They vote with their money.  People who understand or care about this topic are a minority, and they are all members here.  :(

The people making purchasing decisions for apparatus are often either unaware of what makes for effective warning or are wrong about what makes for effective warning.  Many of these fails are upgrades of old equipment done in house or by lowest bid.  Even on new equipment, apparatus manufacturers have learned that the extra wire or flasher required to synch lights is a waste.   Buyers only care or notice if they have spec-ed it specifically. 

If you care, talk to your local apparatus committees.  Get onto your apparatus committee.  Talk to you dept decision makers.  Specs should be specific.  The easiest way to achieve the goal is to specify all heads be set to steady burn and flashed via a remote flasher with two modes at "NFPA approved rate and pattern", with two modes (blocking and clearing).  That will always produce a cohesive grouping of pattern and rate. That also gives you the ability to have the lights grouped as you please on the flasher.  The other option is to specify that the lightheads be wired with their synch wires tied together.  Then you have to specify or worry about which ones are on which "side" of the pattern (which flash together).   The point is, it is much easier in the day and age of self contained lightheads to set them to pinwheel and forget them.  If you want anything other than the cheapest easiest solution, you need to specify. 
 
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AJ3814

Member
Mar 13, 2015
689
Central Louisiana
I'm certainly not a "xxxxx" model lighthead expert, but I will share something here.... I find that split flash is VERY effective WITH ONE SPECIFICATION.... the "split" or "flashing" colors are in contrast of each other (i.e. blue/red, blue/amber, red/white)... not so much blue/white. Even if you "rob" the light head of a "full flash" with one color, you usually are replacing what would be the "off time" with another produced color. Case in point (and I'm sorry I don't have a video) is the ambulances in my hometown of Houston, Texas.... for the last few years they have had rectangular LED's on the back, about halfway up the doors, one on each side.... that split flash red/white..... this has been more effective (to me and from FF's and EMT's that I have spoken with) than anything ever. Same for a small "intersection entry" light mounted on a push bumper facing sideways (or a mirror mounted light).... I'd rather have a "constant on" from dual color than the "on/off" flash of a single color. Of course everyone's opinion is different, and I do think both have merit. I just think that with constrasting colors that can be easily discerned, the split is better in most cases.
 
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JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
I'm certainly not a "xxxxx" model lighthead expert, but I will share something here.... I find that split flash is VERY effective WITH ONE SPECIFICATION.... the "split" or "flashing" colors are in contrast of each other (i.e. blue/red, blue/amber, red/white)... not so much blue/white. Even if you "rob" the light head of a "full flash" with one color, you usually are replacing what would be the "off time" with another produced color. Case in point (and I'm sorry I don't have a video) is the ambulances in my hometown of Houston, Texas.... for the last few years they have had rectangular LED's on the back, about halfway up the doors, one on each side.... that split flash red/white..... this has been more effective (to me and from FF's and EMT's that I have spoken with) than anything ever. Same for a small "intersection entry" light mounted on a push bumper facing sideways (or a mirror mounted light).... I'd rather have a "constant on" from dual color than the "on/off" flash of a single color. Of course everyone's opinion is different, and I do think both have merit. I just think that with constrasting colors that can be easily discerned, the split is better in most cases.
You are correct: If done with adequate off time in a lighthead of sufficient size, splitting a head is a fine way to get that total number of LEDs and colors in a nicer package.  The issue is simply the two halves or colors are unavoidably adjacent.  With two separate heads of the same number of LEDs you could spread them out.  The obligatory proximity of LEDs in split heads can be countered with off time and effective patterns, as you stated.  Conversely; Putting two separate lightheads of different colors side by side and flashing them without synchronization is going to be the same result as a split single head flashed that way.  Split fail is a use of closely grouped LEDs in an asynchronous blur of mixed colors and flashes.  That can be accomplished or avoided by pattern and off time in both split and separate lightheads.

tldr; what you are describing is split flash, not split fail.  They are different. :)
 
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AJ3814

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Mar 13, 2015
689
Central Louisiana
AHHHH.... I see what you're saying... and yes... totally agree... both colors need to illuminate separately (and synnchronized) to achieve what I'm talking about. Not "randomly".... I mean a "one off, one on" pattern, truly alternating. When the colors contrast and are easily discernable without "blending", that pattern is far more effective than an "on off" or "variable" flash with one single color. Even if they are "right there together", when they flash two distinctly different colors *alternatively*, it's very effective.

This came from the very first time I saw "intersection LED's" on a pursuit vehicle.... I saw the light flashing on the push bumper and thought, "With new LED tech, why not have one alternating red/blue on each side coming from the same light source instead of just one color going on/off on each side? As bright as they are and as different as the colors are, why not take advantage of every edge you can get?"

With as "Used to the norm" as human eyes have become, why not confuse them to gain attention? We are so used to seeing flashing "solid" colors, why not bring something new into the game by two different colors coming from the same location at almost the same time?

Getting on my soapbox here..... That's why I am a huge fan of a good rotating light bar with fast rotators. I see people move faster and earlier for those than any of the new LED bars. It's almost like "It's something new that they're not familiar with". I think we (people in general) try way too hard to come up with "brighter and more blinding" when what we need is someting "more awe inspiring that works in all weather", which anyone who's ever been in fog/snow knows is a good rotator bar. That's why I REALLY hope FS comes up with a good viable bar (i.e. the Navigator in patrol length/config) with the new Vison tech other than the "V" shaped bar, that bar is just horrendously and unnecessarily huge. I firmly bleieve we are at a point now where we can almost go back to 80's and 90's technology and achieve better results than what we are seeing with the $5-10,000 set ups we are currently seeing in patrol vehicles. Texas DPS now burns all 4 takedowns (flashing) and headlight wig/wag when they run hot because white light can bee seen 5 times sooner than any other; it's not until that balck and white comes within 100 yards of you that you can see any red or blue. The only down side is the additional electrical load we are now seeing with patrol equipment.... and I hate on-board computers.... I prefer good dispatchers. But before I slip off my current soap box and fall onto another, I'll stop. HA!!!
 
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SEPD_52

Member
Dec 24, 2014
95
Illinois
What are the thoughts on light heads being synced but on different patterns? (i.e. a pair of red/blue Whelen LIN6 fog lights on SignalAlert75 synced with a pair of red/blue Whelen LIN6s on CometFlash75 so that the reds flash together and then the blues)

Would that be a fail?
 

Da-Sarge

Member
Feb 27, 2020
393
Canada
my local ambulances we have the full vehicle with whelen M9s some red and some white with lin 6 heads as a TA main light patturn is whelens flimm flamm patturn shifting from all red to all white and back with all the heads being large its a very effective warning can spot the ambulances from miles away
 

smallish

Member
May 8, 2020
84
Fremont, CA
Ambulances around my area have an array of seven 900 heads on the front of the box. The six flashing ones (center head is steady red) are on a slower, single flash which in my opinion is much easier to spot from far away. Also, everything is syced for a less messy pattern like on the engine.


ambulance at 0:40
 
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Da-Sarge

Member
Feb 27, 2020
393
Canada
Ambulances around my area have an array of seven 900 heads on the front of the box. The six flashing ones (center head is steady red) are on a slower, single flash which in my opinion is much easier to spot from far away. Also, everything is syced for a less messy pattern like on the engine.


ambulance at 0:40

Very similar to the ambulances in my area though no steady burn red head its a very clean patturn and very effective our police vehicles currently use whelen justice bars and whelen or federalsignal traffic adviser in the rear window all with slow one side then otherside patturn (red on blue off then blue on red off) the hide aways are stock ford units that are all synchronized left to right not synchronized with the bars but its a nice effective setup though the justice bars can't touch the liberty in how bright the bar is lol
 
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Da-Sarge

Member
Feb 27, 2020
393
Canada
Ambulances around my area have an array of seven 900 heads on the front of the box. The six flashing ones (center head is steady red) are on a slower, single flash which in my opinion is much easier to spot from far away. Also, everything is syced for a less messy pattern like on the engine.


ambulance at 0:40

Very similar to the ambulances in my area though no steady burn red head its a very clean patturn and very effective
What are the thoughts on light heads being synced but on different patterns? (i.e. a pair of red/blue Whelen LIN6 fog lights on SignalAlert75 synced with a pair of red/blue Whelen LIN6s on CometFlash75 so that the reds flash together and then the blues)

Would that be a fail?

I dont think it would be since your keeping colors together are the lin 6s split or duo
 

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