It's come to this? Pay a fee, or your house burns?

rwo978

Member
May 21, 2010
5,196
ND, USA
Wonder how this works with certain member's here who have issues about 'staging' and 'inactivity'.... :| ;)


I mean, I understand 'subscribing' for service and such, but they let this guy's house burn because he didn't pay $75? Give me a break. :roll:
 

tnems7

Member
May 21, 2010
407
USA Nashville Tennessee
Unfortunately, courts in Tennessee have supported such lack of action by fire departments because the property owners didn't pay the subscription fee (or a fire district tax). Municipalities (towns) in Tennessee must provide fire protection, but many county governments do not have to provide fire service. Many rely solely upon volunteer departments. Many of the counties in Tennessee also lack any building code enforcement, and this contributes to fire losses because construction does not slow fire spead in the structure.


The fact that the South Fulton dept. would respond was probably based upon "life safety" issues, and the department's actions may have been different if someone was trapped inside and endangered. Because there was no subscription, there was no duty to act by firefighters. Also, since we were not there, we don't know if the expectations may have been too much, and the fire could have consumed so much of the property that expending the effort would only result only in "saving the foundation". The neighbor who had paid the fee received their fire service.


Because of the practice in firefighting to expend water and "put the wet stuff on the red stuff", it is difficult to stand by and do "nothing" However, I have seen gasoline tankers that crashed burn because the wise decision was to back up and let nature take it's course. Five gallons of AFFF on the engine was just going to waste and make a reportable EPA spill to add to the paperwork! What if a propane tank was already impinged by fire? Sometimes, fire officers need to make an unpopular decision that may be contrary to the public's "conventional wisdom".


Coincidentally, the residents in South Fulton TN and some of the adjacent areas in Obion County receive their ambulance services from the Fulton KY fire department. But patients who are transported are billed ambulance fees under Medicare scheduled fee-for-services, and there are mutual aid provisions between the two towns and the county...
 

EMS10EMT

Member
Aug 31, 2010
397
NJ
I understand both points of view. I personally would have a problem not going and trying to save the house, but things are obviously different where I am from Tenn.


A question though....Do these departments actually check to see who paid there tax before responding to each and every call?
 

NJEMT

Member
May 22, 2010
377
Essex County, NJ
I do not agree with just letting it burn, if you pay the fee you should get the whole deal, fire protection, lockouts, and basement pump-outs, if you dont pay you should get just fire protection and thats it, and when they are done putting out the fire you get a bill.
 

Stendec

Member
May 21, 2010
816
rwo978 said:
Wonder how this works with certain member's here who have issues about 'staging' and 'inactivity'.... :| ;)

I mean, I understand 'subscribing' for service and such, but they let this guy's house burn because he didn't pay $75? Give me a break. :roll:

What do you think? You mean risk life and limb to save property for some deadbeat? That doesn't sound very safe, smart or prudent, firefighters get killed trying to do that. Hell, it's only a house, wait long enough and it'll take care of itself.


Maybe the best way to handle it if his neighbors are subscribers would be to just bulldoze a firebreak around the place and let it go. Maybe they could enhance their system a little and have a fee scale like a menu: for $75 they'll squirt water on the fire, but if you want an actual rescue, that's a lot more risky, so that'll be 10K a year upfront, non-refundable, with an option to stage if it looks really dicey. They could be like guns for hire, but with nozzles. Each rig could have a credit card reader, but have like a %100 upcharge for people who want service without a prior subscription. Subscribers could have a RFID system like meter readers use, so that when the rigs pull up, they can automatically tell if the owner's paid up.
 

usnr719

Member
Aug 17, 2010
17
NJ/NY
It's an optional fire protection service that is offered to these people. This guy knew what he was doing. How would you feel if you paid the $75 and your house was burning, but the FD couldn't respond because they were too busy putting out the fire at this deadbeat's home? Stupid hurts...guy should have paid. This isn't some rare and unfair system...most rural areas rely on money they earn from fire protection districts. Im sorry, but the attitude of this homeowner is the exact thing tearing this country apart. "I'm not going to pay for this available service, but when I need it I'm going to cry to anyone who will listen." Some people need to learn responsibility the hard way.
 

ISU_Cyclone

Member
May 21, 2010
1,447
SE Wisconsin, USA
Im assuming the department relies on this $75 for funding the department. If they go around taking care of everyone that doesn't pay, then eventually NOBODY pays because "they'll do it anyways" and you can just pay later. Wouldn't it be great if you could just quickly buy health insurance only if you needed it? Or car insurance after you crash?
 

Klein

Member
May 22, 2010
966
Texas
usnr719 said:
It's an optional fire protection service that is offered to these people. This guy knew what he was doing. How would you feel if you paid the $75 and your house was burning, but the FD couldn't respond because they were too busy putting out the fire at this deadbeat's home? Stupid hurts...guy should have paid. This isn't some rare and unfair system...most rural areas rely on money they earn from fire protection districts. Im sorry, but the attitude of this homeowner is the exact thing tearing this country apart. "I'm not going to pay for this available service, but when I need it I'm going to cry to anyone who will listen." Some people need to learn responsibility the hard way.

+1
 

Hoot

New Member
May 21, 2010
13
New Jersey
hmmm.... maybe I should cancel my car insurance. hey, if I get into an accident, I'll just call them up and say "I need some insurance for today."
 

Stendec

Member
May 21, 2010
816
What does this department do at car crashes or fires in public buildings or lands, like a school or a state park out in the county?


Fire history aint my gig, but I know something about the US rural history. Weren't the subscription fire "companies" of the 1800s pretty much an urban thing and in collusion with insurance companies? With the growth of urban industry and rental tenement housing there was a viable market for paid services, and the cash flow to support it. But rural communities have always relied on extended support from the populace for survival, be it a barn raising, help with harvesting crops, forming a posse to apprehend a hood or doing that bucket brigade thing in fighting a fire. They pulled together, for everybody's benefit.


It isn't easy, or always pretty, but with the amount of grants floating around, the county/township/whatever should be able to provide minimal services, even if it means $75 bucks. Not putting the fire out isn't going to save anybody any money. There will be public costs to taxpayers in assessing cause, condemning the property, disposal of waste, loss of tax revenue and all kinds of hidden costs that will far exceed the costs of 2 toner cartridges. And in this case, there's the added cost of the chief's medical care, legal costs in prosecuting the hitter, and so on. He may have to pay restitution, but it isn't like they can sell the house to get it.
 

mcpd2025

Member
May 20, 2010
1,557
Maryland, USA
Bottom line, there is a requirement to pay $75 a year for fire service. If you don't pay it... you're screwed! I donate more than that yearly to my local volunteer department. I think that a more prudent solution would be to have a $75 yearly fee OR the ability for the department to put a tax lien against a house that doesn't pay the subscription and requires service like this. This way, if the homeowner wants to take a gamble he is hit with a multi thousand dollar bill that he HAS to pay within the year... or else Uncle Sam comes after him...


I will admit that it is in poor taste that they showed up and did nothing (watching the neighbors house, who paid the $75), but knowing the general public, very few people would pay if they knew that the department would provide them service otherwise. Kinda makes me wonder why the local governing body that collects taxes doesn't increase the tax by $75, thereby FORCING people to pay for these services.
 
Jul 14, 2010
1,639
S.W. Ohio USA
Would they stand by and not act if there was an entrapment? It is definitely a screwed up system they've got, but if that is the system that is in place and the residents know it, then that's the way it is.


Maybe this incident will lead to improvements. I do agree you can't get retroactive car insurance after a crash, etc. Tacking the fee onto everyone's property taxes equally seems like the best way to go. Don't pay your taxes? The tax man cometh.
 

Rofocowboy84

Member
May 20, 2010
1,161
Centre County, PA
Stendec said:
What do you think? You mean risk life and limb to save property for some deadbeat? That doesn't sound very safe, smart or prudent, firefighters get killed trying to do that. Hell, it's only a house, wait long enough and it'll take care of itself.

This coming from the same person who two days ago said that EMS should have to run through gunfire because that's a type of danger inherent to the job..... :roll: :roll:
 

usnr719

Member
Aug 17, 2010
17
NJ/NY
crescentstar69 said:
Would they stand by and not act if there was an entrapment? It is definitely a screwed up system they've got, but if that is the system that is in place and the residents know it, then that's the way it is.

Maybe this incident will lead to improvements. I do agree you can't get retroactive car insurance after a crash, etc. Tacking the fee onto everyone's property taxes equally seems like the best way to go. Don't pay your taxes? The tax man cometh.


If there is a life at risk, they will act.
 

Jarred J.

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 21, 2010
11,580
Shelbyville, TN
this made national news last (go obion county!!! :roll:)


It made a statement at the end that "they would look into chaging the policy" (yeah right)
 

Stendec

Member
May 21, 2010
816
Rofocowboy84 said:
This coming from the same person who two days ago said that EMS should have to run through gunfire because that's a type of danger inherent to the job..... :roll: :roll:

The nuances of sarcasm escaped you. I guess if the only issue is life safety, the number of runs to unoccupied structures is going to decrease dramatically. If every kid is out of the school, or every worker out of a business, or occupant out of an apartment complex, why bother deploying the troops and equipment? They might get hurt, and who needs to take that chance to save buildings? If the owners or renters don't have insurance, tough titties. They can move under a bridge with the rest of the homeless. Every FD can get a dozer and trackhoe on a lowboy for breaking fireline and knocking down walls, and we can discuss the best lighting setups for a D9 Caterpillar Tractor.


This department sure got a lot of publicity for $75.
 

Jarred J.

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 21, 2010
11,580
Shelbyville, TN
good publicity or bad its good for the dept. Maybe some rich feller will give um some money ya' hear? (purposely mispelled due to southerness)
 

TNFF412N

Member
May 22, 2010
387
San Antonio, Texas
if you dont pay your phone bill, do you expect them to just let you use the phone.... NO the gentlemen,homeowner, knew the rules prior to the fire. If you dont pay for Fire Service we will not respond period... How in the FUCK is this the fire departments problem. They let you know the deal prior and you made the choice not to pay for it. Well i hope he paid the homeowners insurance. Its a calculated risk and he lost.... It sucks that it has to be a paid service but that is what they have and he KNEW IT.. ITS ON HIM. Sorry your basement has a sunroof now... bet he'll pay next time or move......
 

LLS

Member
May 23, 2010
517
NYC
I wonder, if this town has the same standard for EMS, Operator: "911 Operator how may I place your call" Patients daughter: "Help.....my dad...... I think he's not breathing!" 911 Operator: "Please hold ma'm". "Ma'm its seems you did not pay this years annual EMS fee, so we will not be coming over" Patients daughter: "Please, I'll pay what ever it costs, Please just come" "click" "Hello? hello? AAAHHHHHH! -The End
 

TNFF412N

Member
May 22, 2010
387
San Antonio, Texas
LL&S said:
I wonder, if this town has the same standard for EMS, Operator: "911 Operator how may I place your call" Patients daughter: "Help.....my dad...... I think he's not breathing!" 911 Operator: "Please hold ma'm". "Ma'm its seems you did not pay this years annual EMS fee, so we will not be coming over" Patients daughter: "Please, I'll pay what ever it costs, Please just come" "click" "Hello? hello? AAAHHHHHH! -The End

But these folks moved to this area KNOWING that this was the way it was. In TN Fire Service is not a mandated to be provided in a county setting. I dont think EMS service has to be provided. That is why Rescue squads and vol. fire depts came to be. This is a much larger case of you expect service but you dont wont to pay for it.


If you dont pay your water bill they cut it, even though you need water to survive.. What is the difference? I have compassion for the family losing the house and the way the fire dept handled it, but the bottom line is he didnt pay for a service and took the risk and it didnt go in his favor......
 

MPD 818

Member
May 25, 2010
1,317
Murfreesboro TN
kinnelonfire75 said:
http://www.wate.com/Global/story.asp?S=13281135
'


The fact that household pets were killed in the fire rubs me the wrong way. I know pets are not humans but the firefighters could have done something to help them.
My understanding is that this way some type of mobile home. Mobile home fires are very difficult, if not pointless to fight. I am all for animals, but I am not going to endanger the life of my guys to save an animal that was probably already dead before they even got there.


I know some people think this is such an awful thing but think about this:


1) This house was outside the city limits. The city offered the services to those outside the city limits for a fee. I can understand that. The city is paying for the equipment and services for the residents of the city who pay city taxes, the city has no obligation to anyone not living in the city limits. The fact that the city offered fire services to those in the county was pretty cool. Dude did not pay for the services, why should he be surprised when this happens?


2)As I mentioned before it was a mobile home, and those generally go up very fast. You figure by the time the city responded to the county it was probably already rockin and rolling. Nothing more than a surround and drown as long as you know there is no one in the home.


3) If one of the city employees gets hurt fighting this fire, it is the city that has to pay for the employees medical coverage, workers comp, the cost of having someone fill that employess place while he or she is out and all for someone who does not live in the city that did not pay the fee they required.


4)It is the city having to pay the insurance and fuel for the trucks that respond. It is the city having to make payments on the truck that they respond in. The city pays for the upkeep and maintenance on the truck, and the city pays for the building the truck is housed in.


I do not have a problem with what the FD did.
 

Stendec

Member
May 21, 2010
816
Some things should be done just because they are the right thing to do.. If a plane crashed outside the city limits, they wouldn't go? Does the city have an income tax? Would a county resident who worked in the city and paid city income taxes still have to subscribe?
 

ISU_Cyclone

Member
May 21, 2010
1,447
SE Wisconsin, USA
There is a gray area between doing what is right by helping out your fellow man and removing all incentive for anyone to subscribe to fire service ahead of time. This is a tough call.
 

Wailer

Member
May 24, 2010
2,290
Canada
I was expecting some posters to side with the authorities in this case. But then there are some assholes on this forum who see shit like this happen and then get on their high horses and lecture everyone about personal responsibility.


If the county wanted their $75 so god-damned bad they could have put out the fire first and billed the homeowner afterward.


What amazes me about this story is how obsessed the authorities were with the principle of paying the fee to get fire protection. How much property and lives were lost because people in positions of authority were too hung up on their principles?
 

surf_kat

Member
May 28, 2010
58
SE AZ
Residents oppose fire district annexation, say it's too costly


Airpark owners organize; GR says it gets free service


http://www.explorernews.com/articles/20 ... 340038.txt


By Patrick McNamara, The Explorer


Published:


October-06-2010


A proposed fire district annexation in Oro Valley has been met with opposition from a group of residents,


Nearly all of the 120 property owners in La Cholla Airpark have refused to sign annexation petitions circulated by the Golder Ranch Fire District. Some of the residents have organized a formal opposition to the move to incorporate the airpark and nearly 500 other properties, mostly in Pima County, into the district.


"I think it's just a big money grab," said Dick Heffelman, a La Cholla Airpark resident and one of the forces behind the group Citizens Against Annexation.


Heffelman said he wants to see less government and doesn't want to pay the more than $1,100 in secondary property taxes per year he estimates annexation would cost him. The total secondary rate in the district stands at $1.73 per $100 of assessed value.


"It's more than twice as much as I pay for insurance," Heffelman said.


Residents have proposed having all homeowners pay $1,000 into a fire-service fund that would be tapped to pay fees for emergency services.


Rural Metro fire used to cover La Cholla Airpark, but the company asked Golder Ranch to annex the area. Residents like Heffelman said they would rather self-insure, or simply pay a fee for emergency assistance.


That would be fine, Golder Ranch officials said, if airpark residents were ever charged for emergency services.


"Golder Ranch has been responding in there since 2006 and addressing their emergencies and it hasn't cost them a dime," Community Services Division Chief John Sullivan told the Oro Valley Town Council at a Sept. 22 meeting.


To date in 2010, the fire district has responded to 27 calls for emergency services in La Cholla Airpark, including a fire at an airplane hangar in January, Sullivan said. The district did send the property owner a bill for more than $10,000 for fighting the hangar fire. It has recently instituted a service-fee schedule.


"They're riding on the backs of the system put into place at the expense of taxpayers in Oro Valley," Sullivan told the council.


The discussion prompted rebukes from some on the council, including Councilman Joe Hornat. "Personally, I would like to see everyone share in the costs," Hornat said.


Councilman Steve Solomon was more severe in his assessment of the situation.


"I would be for posting signs (at the entrance to the airpark) that say, 'You are now entering an area that has no emergency services,' because that's what they are fighting for," Solomon said.


Heffelman disputes suggestions that other Oro Valley residents effectively subsidize emergency services for the airpark.


"If I get service from them, I'll pay for it," he said. "I expect to pay for it."


That's what he anticipates will happen if the annexation fails.


Heffelman said he and other airpark residents have managed to convince some of their neighbors who signed the annexation petition to withdraw their signatures, leaving just three residents that still support the effort.


The district has collected less than 200 signatures.


Sullivan told The Explorer that a fee schedule does not allow the district to recover costs associated with its response efforts.





"We can never fully recover our intangible costs," for expenses such as training, equipment and facilities, Sullivan said. Service fees only cover the tangible costs associated with individual responses, like wages and material.



The fire district needs to get at least half the residents plus one to agree to annexation to go forward. Heffelman doesn't think they'll get it.


"I think they'll offer subscription-based service," Heffelman said. If not, he said another fire district would pick up where Golder Ranch left off. Sullivan said fire districts are not obligated to serve areas outside their boundaries.


Rural Metro fire would respond to fires and other emergencies if Golder Ranch decides not to serve the La Cholla Airpark community. Kord's Southwest Ambulance Service would provide medical transport services.


Sullivan said the response times would not uphold the same standard that Golder Ranch does under its agreement with Oro Valley. Golder Ranch has to respond to emergencies in the town within five minutes at least 90 percent of the time. Its ambulances have to respond within eight minutes 90 percent of the time.


Kord's, by comparison, has to respond within 60 minutes 80 percent of the time, Sullivan said.


"We have a fiduciary responsibility to our taxpayers," Sullivan said, and that doesn't include providing services to residents who don't pay district taxes.


The total assessed value of the entire annexation area tops $26.3 million, and the amount of taxes those property owners would pay would be roughly $412,000 in the 2011 tax year, Sullivan said. La Cholla Airpark makes up about $8.2 million of the total assessed value and would pay $130,000 in taxes, Sullivan said.


He stressed that he doesn't want airpark residents to be without services and encouraged residents to work with Golder Ranch or another fire district to ensure reliable delivery of emergency services.


The district has until May 2011 to collect the needed signatures and present them to the Pima County Board of Supervisors for approval.
 

NPS Ranger

Member
May 21, 2010
1,988
Penn's Woods
So what happens if I'm from out of state, and driving through the county area outside the city limits, and have a vehicle accident with entrapment and fire? I haven't paid the fire tax, does that mean the fire department won't respond?
 

Jarred J.

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 21, 2010
11,580
Shelbyville, TN
In my home county we have 5 VFD's and a rescue squad along with 2 towns with fulltime FDs. ( 1 has 11,000 the other 22,000 populus)


The county VFD's do not have extracation equipment due to funding and training, The county's rescue squad has the equipment but cannot use it at an MVA.


1 of the towns rescue trucks are dispatched along with whatever districts VFD is dispatched along with EMS when it is needed.


In the county i live in now with a county "partially" funded VFD that uses donations for the rest of its funding has 1 truck out of 8 stations with resque equipment on it. The town here also has a rescue truck but it DOES NOT roll mutual aid.


and then there's moore county (lynchburg) that the whole county is VFD and they have a rescue truck on their dept.
 

Stendec

Member
May 21, 2010
816
We aren't in a normal business. I understand all too well that emergency services cost money, but so does NOT providing them, let alone the moral and ethical implications. Should I not help a little old lady change a flat on the highway if she is from out of county/state because she doesn't contribute anything to cover expenses? Should I do it for her, but then charge her? Should I tell her to take responsibility for herself, even if she doesn't have the physical ability or knowledge to change the tire? Should I tell her that she should have known she could have had a flat at any time and if she was responsible she would have joined AAA? No, I'm going to change the tire, because that's what public servants do. And if I rip my pants or bark a knuckle, those expenses are part of doing business.


Essentially privatizing public service won't work. Do we want Blackwater, Halliburton and KBR to sign up with RuralMetro and AMR? As for the other examples, like water, electricity and all that, I can choose to live off the grid. The tools and technology exist that allow any individual to be self sufficient when it comes to things like water, power and food. But few people are going to be able to afford the equipment or garner the knowledge to fight their own house fire. even having smoke detectors and extinguishers.


I understand that "home" external defibrillators are coming on market? How many people are going to get one of those?
 

Pursuit

Member
May 23, 2010
72
Pulaski County, AR
There is a mile stretch of roadway that my local fire department will not respond to because the residents refuse to pay the mandatory taxes for the services. So if you have a house on fire there, you might as well bring out the marshmallows, and begin your campfire stories.
 

Pursuit

Member
May 23, 2010
72
Pulaski County, AR
Stendec said:
As for the other examples, like water, electricity and all that, I can choose to live off the grid. The tools and technology exist that allow any individual to be self sufficient when it comes to things like water, power and food. But few people are going to be able to afford the equipment or garner the knowledge to fight their own house fire. even having smoke detectors and extinguishers.

Um, what? No one is asking anyone to “live off the grid”, or to "fight their own fire." All that is being asked is to pay the required fees, or taxes for those services. People are already self sufficient by paying their light bill for electricity, and their water bill for water. The same goes for the Fire Department. If you want the services of the Fire Department then you will have to pay just like everyone else does.


Also, let’s not forget that there is a huge difference between inability to pay, and refusing to pay.
 

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