Lightbar Tint

Lightbar tint (factory option)

  • Yay

    Votes: 4 33.3%
  • Nay

    Votes: 8 66.7%
  • No opinion

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    12

SEPD_52

Member
Dec 24, 2014
95
Illinois
I searched the discussion boards and couldn't really find the answer I am looking for. I'm sorry if I missed a discussion on this.

Our agency formed a fleet committee. One of the items on the next agenda is to discuss equipment, specifically lightbars and the tinted lenses ordering option.

If you are reading this and wouldn't mind I would like to hear some feedback on pros and cons of having a lightbar tinted. The only pro that I can think of is reducing the conspicuous nature of a lightbar and the main con is that if it's not a TIR optic it seems to reduce light output.

Thanks in advance everyone!
 
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Jun 18, 2013
3,709
PA
I searched the discussion boards and couldn't really find the answer I am looking for. I'm sorry if I missed a discussion on this.

Our agency formed a fleet committee. One of the items on the next agenda is to discuss equipment, specifically lightbars and the tinted lenses ordering option.

If you are reading this and wouldn't mind I would like to hear some feedback on pros and cons of having a lightbar tinted. The only pro that I can think of is reducing the conspicuous nature of a lightbar and the main con is that if it's not a TIR optic it seems to reduce light output.

Thanks in advance everyone!
So I have been involved with "committees" enough to understand that these options, while on the outside would seem silly usually have a grain of reason behind them. Sometimes a really small grain of reason.

What problem or issue is a non tinted bar presenting?
Is there any supporting evidence that tinting lenses resolves an issue
 
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firebuff17

Member
Mar 28, 2011
774
CT
I have no personal experience in this. I can only speak in terms of observations.

I am in CT, and the state police started using factory tinted Whelen Legacy Lightbars for a short period of time. The last generations of police interceptor sedans they ordered (before Ford stopped producing them) and they switched to utility interceptors.

The CT state police are unmarked in terms of stripping or decals. So to the average person they blend in and do not stand out. With the clear lens Legacy’s, and with the lights OFF, you can see them pretty clearly, day and most of the time at night.
With the tinted Legacy’s, with the lights OFF, they were harder to see and spot during the day, and almost impossible at night.

Now as far as light output with either cruise lights, or warning lights flashing, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. To the eye, output remained the same.

Maybe this will help and shed some light () on your decision.
 

Dave F

Moderator
Sep 13, 2015
1,343
Berks County, PA
I wish i could specifically cite where I saw this.

However given the intensity and power of the diodes in use these days, their output is not hindered in the slightest by tint

again this was scientifically backed with studies however this was a while back (and LEDs have gotten even brighter since then) but for the life of me cant recall when where or how
 

SEPD_52

Member
Dec 24, 2014
95
Illinois
So I have been involved with "committees" enough to understand that these options, while on the outside would seem silly usually have a grain of reason behind them. Sometimes a really small grain of reason.

What problem or issue is a non tinted bar presenting?
Is there any supporting evidence that tinting lenses resolves an issue
A non tinted bar was not presenting any issues for us. The administrator in charge of the fleet at the time didn't really specify anything with the upfitter outside outside of a very basic overview of what he wanted. So it was the upfetter that decided it looked cool. I wanted to see if there was a legit purpose for it and make sure that it We weren't substituting effectiveness for "looking cool."
 

SEPD_52

Member
Dec 24, 2014
95
Illinois
I have no personal experience in this. I can only speak in terms of observations.

I am in CT, and the state police started using factory tinted Whelen Legacy Lightbars for a short period of time. The last generations of police interceptor sedans they ordered (before Ford stopped producing them) and they switched to utility interceptors.

The CT state police are unmarked in terms of stripping or decals. So to the average person they blend in and do not stand out. With the clear lens Legacy’s, and with the lights OFF, you can see them pretty clearly, day and most of the time at night.
With the tinted Legacy’s, with the lights OFF, they were harder to see and spot during the day, and almost impossible at night.

Now as far as light output with either cruise lights, or warning lights flashing, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. To the eye, output remained the same.

Maybe this will help and shed some light () on It absolutely does. Thank you for that info! We have all black squads so it does help to blend in but I just didn't want to lose any to lose any brightness.
 

SEPD_52

Member
Dec 24, 2014
95
Illinois
given the intensity and power of the diodes in use these days, their output is not hindered in the slightest by tint

again this was scientifically backed with studies
Thank you Dave. Between Stampede Valkyrie, firebuff and your response this is exactly what I was looking for.

Sort of related… the upfitter took out one of the modules in the passenger side of the Legacy light bar to put in a micro preemption strobe. Thankfully I went to their shop before we got it back and told them absolutely not especially behind tint. I had them put the light bar module back and put the preemption strobe in the grille. Although they used a microyhin instead of the RECT37 Tomar I asked for. Baby steps I guess...‍♂️ I did though program the light bars to flash half-half instead of their crazy mish-mosh pattern.
 

Dave F

Moderator
Sep 13, 2015
1,343
Berks County, PA
just be aware your preemption strobes effectiveness is going to be greatly diminished (if not totally so) being mounted that low. theyre mounted in lightbars and the top portion of cabs so they can be “seen” over vehicles by the corresponding reader mounted to your traffic control devices

being mounted in a grill, its going to be blocked by any vehicles in front of you, and its effective range is going to be cut in half, if not more

food for thought
 

SEPD_52

Member
Dec 24, 2014
95
Illinois
just be aware your preemption strobes effectiveness is going to be greatly diminished (if not totally so) being mounted that low. theyre mounted in lightbars and the top portion of cabs so they can be “seen” over vehicles by the corresponding reader mounted to your traffic control devices

being mounted in a grill, its going to be blocked by any vehicles in front of you, and its effective range is going to be cut in half, if not more

food for thought
For us it seems to work really well there as long as we have a 3x7 strobe head. The recievers see them a very long distance away. We've tried using a "curly" strobe tube drilled into a take down reflector in the lightbars however we found out that those reflectors point down at the ground. The microthins we have for our slicktops don't seem to work well either even when mounted high up on the interior windshield. If they weren't so expensive I'd love to tru the infra-red emitters.
 
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EMT-BLS

New Member
Oct 28, 2011
2,640
Waterbury, CT
I wish i could specifically cite where I saw this.

However given the intensity and power of the diodes in use these days, their output is not hindered in the slightest by tint

again this was scientifically backed with studies however this was a while back (and LEDs have gotten even brighter since then) but for the life of me cant recall when where or how
Not even a little? Logically, tint would automatically remove some of the output, even if it's a miniscule amount.
 
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Dave F

Moderator
Sep 13, 2015
1,343
Berks County, PA
Not even a little? Logically, tint would automatically remove some of the output, even if it's a miniscule amount.
Id said they arent hindered in the slightest, meaning theyre just as effective behind tint as they were not. This wasnt to mean their output isnt affected at all.
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
My totally non-scientific experience is preemption strobes are most effected by location (height/angle) and size/design of lighthead. Whelen/3m use(d) a honeycomb type focusing grid over their 4x3 sized preemption strobes to increase directional output. A 4x3 or 7x3 head directly in the top center of a vehicle is next best if you can't get the 3m style. You are looking for focus to send the pattern to the sensor. It is a different concept than warning where you are sending a visual notification to the human eye in as wide a spread as possible. If you have to use a micro style head I would worry more about placement than tint, although I'd still worry about the tint. I would say as close to center of the bar behind the tint will beat the grill, but I have only my hunch to back that up.
 
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CD3

Member
May 25, 2010
411
USA, CA
I just logged in and was reading these comments about tint and light output ect. I moved our CA. state fish & wildlife vehicles into tinted lightbars last year. They are now drive all black 4x4 trucks, they loved the look of the tinted bars with black tops. This was part of their decision because it made the truck look really nice. The other part was it does really knock down the ambient light when they are out at night. Also, being in CA. we must test the tinted bars to meet or strict regulations of light output. It passed without any issues at all and we have it certified to meet CA Title 13. So, I hope this help some of you about the tinting and the light output. As one of the comments made, the LED's today are much brighter than those when they first came out. Look at it another way, many departments have the "DIM" feature on their light controllers or now even the photo cells that auto dim the bars right? Dimming these bars have 30-40% less light output so this function itself has much less light output than the tinting.

On the traffic emitter, I too agree that the emitter should be at the vehicles highest point and to left of center of the vehicles roof. I do this because most emergency vehicles pull slightly left of the vehicles they are coming up on having that emitter over to the left of center give that emitter usually a clear unobstructed shot to the signal. I know this because I was an officer for 24 years, the original position was on the front pushbar. That worked OK if traffic wasn't in front or large vehicles. Once I had it moved into the lightbar much better results.
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
I just logged in and was reading these comments about tint and light output ect. I moved our CA. state fish & wildlife vehicles into tinted lightbars last year. They are now drive all black 4x4 trucks, they loved the look of the tinted bars with black tops. This was part of their decision because it made the truck look really nice. The other part was it does really knock down the ambient light when they are out at night. Also, being in CA. we must test the tinted bars to meet or strict regulations of light output. It passed without any issues at all and we have it certified to meet CA Title 13. So, I hope this help some of you about the tinting and the light output. As one of the comments made, the LED's today are much brighter than those when they first came out. Look at it another way, many departments have the "DIM" feature on their light controllers or now even the photo cells that auto dim the bars right? Dimming these bars have 30-40% less light output so this function itself has much less light output than the tinting.

On the traffic emitter, I too agree that the emitter should be at the vehicles highest point and to left of center of the vehicles roof. I do this because most emergency vehicles pull slightly left of the vehicles they are coming up on having that emitter over to the left of center give that emitter usually a clear unobstructed shot to the signal. I know this because I was an officer for 24 years, the original position was on the front pushbar. That worked OK if traffic wasn't in front or large vehicles. Once I had it moved into the lightbar much better results.

Great info; If it meets CA requirements I doubt the tinting at the level tested makes much output difference at all. It is good to have a real test rather than conjecturing. I just outfitted two new command SUVs and used the built in photocell to turn the bars to low power mode at night because of how bright they are. I had never used low power mode on a product since I worked on a truck with rear white strobes (not my design choice). Modern LEDs really are bright to the point that setup, pattern, placement and user decisions (ie when to use what) are more important than factors than the LEDs themselves. I'm glad someone has objective data on LEDs and tint, this is great info.

As far as opticoms go, I would be curious to do a tint vs location test. While I'd prefer not to have an opticom behind tint, I'm betting the location is more important than the tint. I have dealt with a handful of different opticom setups and the best one by far have always been the 3m "honeycomb" lens mounted as high as possible. I have done direct comparison in the same location between these and other lightheads and found the 3m design beats most, but blows 500 or micro sized stuff out of the water. The exception to this is location. When "non-3m" options were mounted up high they always beat everything (including the 3m ones) mounted on the push bar. Low mounting is to me the worst single factor with preemption systems.

My bullet point for preemption would be height is the factor to worry about. Anything mounted up high beats anything mounted down low, even leaving lighthead design and size out of the equation (I bet this goes for tints as well).
 
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CD3

Member
May 25, 2010
411
USA, CA
Great info; If it meets CA requirements I doubt the tinting at the level tested makes much output difference at all. It is good to have a real test rather than conjecturing. I just outfitted two new command SUVs and used the built in photocell to turn the bars to low power mode at night because of how bright they are. I had never used low power mode on a product since I worked on a truck with rear white strobes (not my design choice). Modern LEDs really are bright to the point that setup, pattern, placement and user decisions (ie when to use what) are more important than factors than the LEDs themselves. I'm glad someone has objective data on LEDs and tint, this is great info.

As far as opticoms go, I would be curious to do a tint vs location test. While I'd prefer not to have an opticom behind tint, I'm betting the location is more important than the tint. I have dealt with a handful of different opticom setups and the best one by far have always been the 3m "honeycomb" lens mounted as high as possible. I have done direct comparison in the same location between these and other lightheads and found the 3m design beats most, but blows 500 or micro sized stuff out of the water. The exception to this is location. When "non-3m" options were mounted up high they always beat everything (including the 3m ones) mounted on the push bar. Low mounting is to me the worst single factor with preemption systems.

My bullet point for preemption would be height is the factor to worry about. Anything mounted up high beats anything mounted down low, even leaving lighthead design and size out of the equation (I bet this goes for tints as well).
I agree with your bullet point height does matter.
 

CD3

Member
May 25, 2010
411
USA, CA
I agree with your bullet point height does matter.
I hit the send button a little early. CA presently doesn't allow for dimming at least in our CCR Title 13, but like most of those regulations they are very behind the times. We tested our Pursuit lightbar at 40% dim and it met T-13 however our lab will not "certify" due to that regulation. But I do find it odd like our new system, Whelen, Sound Off and Fed.Sig, our new systems can turn off the warning lights rear or some in the front when brakes or turn signals, but do not dim them! There is a need for states that do regulate emergency lighting to seriously look at allowing the dimming functions the LED's of today are so bright and are very bad in areas that have a lot of rain, snow or fog it does cause confusion to officers or other emergency vehicles that are following.
 
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JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
I hit the send button a little early. CA presently doesn't allow for dimming at least in our CCR Title 13, but like most of those regulations they are very behind the times. We tested our Pursuit lightbar at 40% dim and it met T-13 however our lab will not "certify" due to that regulation. But I do find it odd like our new system, Whelen, Sound Off and Fed.Sig, our new systems can turn off the warning lights rear or some in the front when brakes or turn signals, but do not dim them! There is a need for states that do regulate emergency lighting to seriously look at allowing the dimming functions the LED's of today are so bright and are very bad in areas that have a lot of rain, snow or fog it does cause confusion to officers or other emergency vehicles that are following.
I would be curious how that reads; I can't find it in the statute (not disputing it's there). CHP uses steady burn mode instead of reduced power flash. There is usually a way around like bypassing siren tone restriction by adding hi-lo dual airhorn powered sirens and counting them as airhorns not sirens. If the lightbar were tested at dimmed capacity as it's primary/default mode and passed would upping the brightness (since it's not dimming) during the day be a work around? I suppose there is always simply shutting off some of the lights or switching them to steady burn (the CHP philosophy) instead of dimming them. I like the idea of regulating lights, I just think CA has always been a bit overboard. I think I prefer the CA approach to states where it is any color or setup goes essentially. I'd rather have restrictions than outlandish and confusing setups. Thanks for the follow up info.
 

CD3

Member
May 25, 2010
411
USA, CA
I would be curious how that reads; I can't find it in the statute (not disputing it's there). CHP uses steady burn mode instead of reduced power flash. There is usually a way around like bypassing siren tone restriction by adding hi-lo dual airhorn powered sirens and counting them as airhorns not sirens. If the lightbar were tested at dimmed capacity as it's primary/default mode and passed would upping the brightness (since it's not dimming) during the day be a work around? I suppose there is always simply shutting off some of the lights or switching them to steady burn (the CHP philosophy) instead of dimming them. I like the idea of regulating lights, I just think CA has always been a bit overboard. I think I prefer the CA approach to states where it is any color or setup goes essentially. I'd rather have restrictions than outlandish and confusing setups. Thanks for the follow up info.
Actually, the CHP uses the steady burn not to use as a reduced power but it is there position some call it LVL 2 lighting which is to make a traffic stop. Almost 99% of CA agencies use this for a traffic stop, but they can use Pos./LVL 3 with all warning lights flashing as well. I have seen many different CHP LVL 2 lightbar configurations which I find it strange. Some have the standard 1 single steady red and 1 steady blue, to, the driver's side all steady red no blue and the entire lightbar steady red/blue, plus they have a park feature as well. As for CA going over the top, OH YEAH! I heard and it isn't confirmed yet they CHP is now excepting SEA flash patterns, CA had several only that were required but the LED lighting has changed that for sure. CHP and CCR T-13 hasn't been kept up on for sure. I know CHP took the T-13 and the vehicle code lighting regulation and moved it from the CHP motor pool division over to the commercial enforcement side.
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
Actually, the CHP uses the steady burn not to use as a reduced power but it is there position some call it LVL 2 lighting which is to make a traffic stop. Almost 99% of CA agencies use this for a traffic stop, but they can use Pos./LVL 3 with all warning lights flashing as well. I have seen many different CHP LVL 2 lightbar configurations which I find it strange. Some have the standard 1 single steady red and 1 steady blue, to, the driver's side all steady red no blue and the entire lightbar steady red/blue, plus they have a park feature as well. As for CA going over the top, OH YEAH! I heard and it isn't confirmed yet they CHP is now excepting SEA flash patterns, CA had several only that were required but the LED lighting has changed that for sure. CHP and CCR T-13 hasn't been kept up on for sure. I know CHP took the T-13 and the vehicle code lighting regulation and moved it from the CHP motor pool division over to the commercial enforcement side.
I wasn't saying steady burn was acting as a cruise light or a reduced power level, I was just noting that larger portions of setups are often steady burn since the switch to LED. That idea essentially takes the place of cruise mode in the sense there is less distracting flash. I'm familiar with some of the evolution of CA and CHP lighting, and as LEDS became a thing steady burn started to work it's way back to parts of the vehicle that hadn't seen steady burn in a long time; IE rather than shutting down to just a steady red to the front and rear amber flashers more of the bar goes steady but remains on in some modes (blue rear steady burn, entire front lightbars steady burn etc). Even at full power this achieves a similar effect to reduce distraction and "moth effect". LEDs at least give the option to flash or not flash any part of the bar desired where as older setups are not as flexible which is probably why the setups have evolved more quickly and are varied more than in the past.

As far as not being able to dim the lights I still wonder if the dim level was identified as your default (it meets minimum) if there is anything stating you cannot increase brightness. I'm going to need to find the actual statute, but if installers etc won't certify it it is kinda pointless I guess.

Either way I'd still rather have some emergency light regulation than the confusing messes that other states allow. As LEDs become the 100% standard and dual colors are more widely available I hope to see more places go to a more planned setup with clear vs. blocking clearly defined by color and pattern.
 
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firebuff17

Member
Mar 28, 2011
774
CT
Either way I'd still rather have some emergency light regulation than the confusing messes that other states allow. As LEDs become the 100% standard and dual colors are more widely available I hope to see more places go to a more planned setup with clear vs. blocking clearly defined by color and pattern.

This 100%!!!
 

CD3

Member
May 25, 2010
411
USA, CA
This 100%!!!
The Code 3 lightbars out of the factory are at 100% brightness, it is up to the agency to tell their the people building their vehicles if they want dim feature either activated off the photo cell which is everynight that bar becomes dimmer, and to what brightness, or wired to the dim button on their controller. Our new Matrix allows you to dim in syncrements of 10% and you can even choose the light head(s) you want to dim. Heck When I started working I had 2 Micky Mouse ears 4001R front and 2 4001A rear with a Deits 711 4 beam rotator center. Only thing I had to dim was the high beams on the car LOL. I will try to find that statute I even tried numerous times to set up an appointment with CHP commercial enforcment in Sacramento, but they are never there. The regulation I was told about dimming was supposed to be under CCR, T-13, Division 2 Chapter 2, then read through the reg's. I have yet to do so myself.
 

Dave F

Moderator
Sep 13, 2015
1,343
Berks County, PA
Since we mentioned tint and opticoms, anyone have experience using one with colores lenses before ie red or blue, does it affect it at all, does it hinder the reciever at all?
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
The Code 3 lightbars out of the factory are at 100% brightness, it is up to the agency to tell their the people building their vehicles if they want dim feature either activated off the photo cell which is everynight that bar becomes dimmer, and to what brightness, or wired to the dim button on their controller. Our new Matrix allows you to dim in syncrements of 10% and you can even choose the light head(s) you want to dim. Heck When I started working I had 2 Micky Mouse ears 4001R front and 2 4001A rear with a Deits 711 4 beam rotator center. Only thing I had to dim was the high beams on the car LOL. I will try to find that statute I even tried numerous times to set up an appointment with CHP commercial enforcment in Sacramento, but they are never there. The regulation I was told about dimming was supposed to be under CCR, T-13, Division 2 Chapter 2, then read through the reg's. I have yet to do so myself.
I thought Code 3 lightbars were at 50% dimming all the time compared to other brands.... joking.
 

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