New dispatcher needs help

chfdbigbad

Member
May 22, 2010
265
Cincinnati, OH
To all the dispatchers out there,


A close buddy of mine got a job as a dispatcher in a major city and is struggling with it. He is having problems staying calm and processing 911 calls coming in. He just seams overwhelmed with all of it.


Can anyone provide any tips or tricks or just general info, that would be helpful.


Thanks all
 
May 21, 2010
148
Corbin, Kentucky
To be honest, from everyone that i have worked with, those that stay seem to be born to do it.


Its all about knowing how to prioritize and multitask.


If there is a bit of wizdom I could give anyone on being a dispatcher.....its this.


You have to be crazy to work here, but we will train you.
 

RolnCode3

Member
May 21, 2010
322
Sacramento, CA
chfdbigbad said:
To all the dispatchers out there,

A close buddy of mine got a job as a dispatcher in a major city and is struggling with it. He is having problems staying calm and processing 911 calls coming in. He just seams overwhelmed with all of it.


Can anyone provide any tips or tricks or just general info, that would be helpful.


Thanks all
Has he talked to his FTO about this? They can probably come up with a learning plan (or remediation if it's gotten that far) to address some of it.
 
May 25, 2010
7,072
Tunkhannock, PA, USA
As I've been told many times, either you can do this job (dispatching), or you can't... I have yet to see in my 7 years of dispatching, and 10+ years in emergency services in general, someone "learn" to do this job...


Just my personal experience though, not trying to dis the guy...
 

chfdbigbad

Member
May 22, 2010
265
Cincinnati, OH
RolnCode3 said:
Has he talked to his FTO about this? They can probably come up with a learning plan (or remediation if it's gotten that far) to address some of it.


i talked to him this afternoon and told him to do just that. he is on his probation period and he is worried about losing his job because he is struggling. I told him he needed to talk to his fto and supervisor and make it clear that he wants to stay and he wants to learn it. and to spell out the area that he is having trouble in so they can help him improve.


but beyond that i have very little dispatch experiance so im not a whole lot of help to him.
 

unlisted

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 20, 2010
7,333
NA
NPS Ranger said:
Benzos.
Just kidding.

No you are not..


Also... Tell them to start drinking.. lots..


Like others have said, you can either do the job, or not. If they cannot handle it after a month, its not the right job for them.


Up here in Ontario, PS dispatchers have the highest turnover rate in the PS field.. something like 5:1 ratio- with all three services combined for the latter.
 
May 22, 2010
153
MI, USofA
I scored 2nd in the eligibility testing of the hundreds who tested for the job here in GR. I lasted 4 months. I figured out before the dept did that it wasn't working out, but it was a good job, so I stuck with it, hoping I'd get it. But eventually, they decided it wasn't working out and let me go. I know exactly what he's going through, and I agree with the others here - either you are wired for the job or you're not. I am not. I can live with that The Good Lord has designed each of us a specific way. There are people up in that office that are absolutely INCREDIBLE at their job. At the same time, I'm pretty sure there are several up there who couldn't handle being on-scene of some of the crashes we deal with, or sitting with someone who's just lost a loved one, as I do. The best piece of advice I can give him is one that I never quite managed to let sink in - "it's not YOUR emergency" ... if you can grasp that, you'll go a long way. But make sure he knows that if it DOESN'T work out, that's not his fault and it's not anything against him - if he's not wired for it, he will only make himself sick (literally) in the end. if he IS, it will be one of the most rewarding things he's ever done ...
 

Maranos

Member
May 21, 2010
151
Pacific Northwest, USA
I'm a dispatcher in a big city and I feel like there was a learning curve in the beginning. People always used to tell me about how when they were trainee they would go home in tears because of the stress, but these are also the same people that are there 15 years later. It's a tough job, but it's just that much harder when you're new.


I think the best advice is just chin up and have confidence in yourself, you're going to make mistakes, and your FTO's are going to rip you to shreds for them. But after time it just starts to click, that's how it was for me.


I'm not saying I don't think there are those who can do it and those that can't, that's very much true. Just that it's hard on everyone even those that can, and you just gotta stick with it. I got hired with 10 people, 4 of us including myself are still there. And I think it's because some people focus too hard on the negatives when you need to be focused on just progressing and brushing yourself off after the FTO kicks your ass on something.
 
Jul 14, 2010
1,639
S.W. Ohio USA
I have every respect for dispatchers. I worked with several cops over the years that were always ragging on them. I didn't realize how stressful it was, until I sat the dispatch console several times so a dispatcher could take a break. Of course, everything would go to hell in a high-speed handbasket every time. I was frazzled after 10 minutes. Cops bitching for a registration, multiple 911 lines ringing, toning the FD out, teletypes coming in, etc. Let's give 'em some respect, guys!
 

AdaFire38

Member
May 16, 2010
148
Lowell, MI
Mick (firewolf) said:
I I lasted 4 months. I figured out before the dept did that it wasn't working out, but it was a good job, so I stuck with it, hoping I'd get it. But eventually, they decided it wasn't working out and let me go.

Now I just wonder when the Chief is going to figure out you ain't any good at the firefighting either and let you go.... :p


Seriously...


I was a dispatcher for Aero Med up here in Michigan. It was a good 2 months before I just suddenly just snapped into place. It was as if the light turned on. Tell your friend not to get discouraged. If it snaps for him, he'll be good. If not, he's better off anyway.
 

PJD642

New Member
May 20, 2010
1,543
east of Cleveland
My wife dispatches for the County central dispatch center - 10 PD & 13 FD, spread over 4 desks. 911 land lines for the eastern half of the county, and 911 cellular calls for the entire county come through there.


There is no way in hell I could do her job. I'm gonna stay on this side of the microphone. Like people said above, I really think you just are born with the ability.
 

CFD125

Member
May 21, 2010
487
Carver, Mass.
I agree with the "born to do it" thing.


One of our new firefighters, only 21 years old (and looks like he's 15) is one of the best damn dispatchers we have ever had.


He is calm, thorough, and quick thinking.


He impressed the police dept. enough that he is also a dispatcher for them now, too.


You go to an MVA into a pole, he's already contaced N-star (power co.). You go to a jaws run, he's already got Med-flight on standby. etc. etc.
 

Ben E.

Member
May 21, 2010
2,417
Iowa, USA
Come on guys!!! What's so stressful about pushing the button and yacking into the microphone every once in awhile?


I kid, I kid! I love my dispatchers (even though some of them suck).
 

TCO

Member
May 21, 2010
808
Malvern,Pa
i have been a dispatcher for almost 10 years now,biggest thing he can do is take a deep breath when he feels like he is getting flustered and to remember,he is sitting in a chair somewhere on the phone talking to someone on the radio and or phone and not out on the actual incident ,at break time or end of the day he is walking out the door and should be leaving everything behind him.. otherwise maybe seeing a mental health person may actually help him if there is something that happened on one of his calls. and yes i have heard and seen most people in this job either have it or they do not
 

patrol530

Member
May 23, 2010
1,016
Central Florida
When I worked for a smaller agency years ago, I had to break the (1) dispatcher. I didn't really care to be on the receiving end of 9-1-1 calls. Now that I am a larger agency, and don't have to provide such breaks, all I ask for is the information to be given to me in an accurate, succinct and timely manner. However, rarely does a day pass without some sort of dispatching flub. There is a shortage of qualified candidates for these positions, so we just continually cycle through the training process with them until they flee the radio room crying. So, suck it up or find a less stressful line of work, since my a$$ can depend on the information you provide me.
 

FFEMT75

Member
Jun 11, 2010
65
Houston, Texas
When I first started, I gave my agency a commitment to help fill the dispatch center for a year....5 years later...I got trapped by easy money, internet access, tv, a/c, comfy chairs, and some other stuff that made me stay fulltime. I do also have side jobs in the field, but primarily it's 3 or 4 days a week in here.


I'm not sure if he does 911, Police, EMS, or FIre...or all 3 but here are some tips:


Learn the territory as much as possible....policies and units too for that matter. Be the expert. Once you go live with an incident it's always nice to know what people are doing or talking about.


As a calltaker have a pen/paper available at all times, you never know. Keep google open on your desktop if you can to search stuff quickly like business addresses or google maps with actual street view really helps for locations.


With excited callers or situations learn the callers name. Use their name, people are programmed to respond to their name. Give them a purpose in life. Give them a reason with a request. "You have to calm down so we can help them" "Maria, calm down, I can't understand you" "I need the telephone number you're calling me from in case we get disconnected"


Repeat the described request each time in exactly the same manner.


Do not vary the sentence structure, tone, volume, rate, or any other vocal characteristic.--Variation softens the effect of the gentle hammer you are using to knock against the housing of the other person’s hysteria.


Get extra details, it only takes a second. Write lots of notes but don't assume, make sure it's accurate and watch your spelling. Stuff like "drunk male" and "caller stated male w possible etoh on board" are two totally different things. You may never know when you're asked to go to court to explain your actions.


For dispatching:


Keep the recorder open and available if you have one. Instant playback is a great tool, but don't rely on it too much.


Don't be afraid to ask someone to repeat themselves but don't make it a habit...Best to give what you did catch then "REPEAT?!?!?!?!" Example "Last unit


repeat your number" or "Unit going on scene, your number"


Learn the priority traffic/emergency traffic/channel held policy well. Always nice to be able to say "hold your traffic" haha


It does take a special person to deal with this stuff we deal with. I do believe that it does have some to do with "you have it or you don't" but some of it is learning. I wasn't born with it, but I was born with the ability to learn and use my experience to adapt to different things. All fire/ems/police in general are a special type of messed up person. I don't know how I'm not in some nut house already with the things I've seen, done, and heard about. It's a crazy world and when people call 911 just remember, it may not be an emergency to you, but it's an emergency to them. Respect and a caring tone can make a difference.


Just remember: Good doctors and bad doctors get sued...nice doctors don't.
 

Brian H

Member
May 25, 2010
296
Iowa
Ben E. said:
Come on guys!!! What's so stressful about pushing the button and yacking into the microphone every once in awhile?

I kid, I kid! I love my dispatchers (even though some of them suck).

I know it would never happen but if you had a 10-80 that ran into the western side of the state I will make sure you get stop sticked for your potty mouth! :lol: :lol: :lol:


I've been in communications for 4 years now and in that time I've worked for 2 different agencies. In each one of them I say the biggest deciding factor on whether or not someone can do the job and do it well is the ability to multi task. If you can't multi task you may make it but your time is probably numbered. Here is what I have encountered in both jobs and how busy and stressful it can get.


My first job in communications was at Lifecom in Omaha, NE. LifeCom is the largest dispatch center in the US I believe for Airmethods. At the time we handled around 100 helicopters and fixed wing aircraft. The center also had a billing center and transfer center that I won't get into as I have no idea how they work. The Communications side of the room was broken up into 4 sections, Heartland Desks, Southeast Desks, Northeast Desks, and West Bank.


During my 1 year employeed there I worked on the West Bank which handled only Mercy Air in CA/NV and AZ LifeNet. Our shifts were 12 hrs and we had 3 dispatchers on our bank. I was primary for Mercy Air with 1 other dispatcher and we handled 14 helicopters between the 2 of us. AZ LN had 1 and we backed her up when she was busy or stepped out of the room. Our hours were 6p-6a so with the time difference it was 4p-4a there time. So imagine having that many helicopters at those times in Las Vegas, San Diego, Bakersfield during rush our and peak times during the weekends. It was nuts. It wasn't uncommon to have all our helicopters up and AZ to have all theirs up, we were very busy. The other desks had more dispatchers but had maybe 30 or more helicopters on their banks like South East did. On my desk alone, in 1 year I can name close to 7 people that were trained after I got hired that didn't make it by either quitting or getting let go. The number 1 killer for people was multi tasking and stress. It was a tough job and you were always doing multiple things at once. Whether it be incoming flight requests, confirming accepting drs for interhospital xfers, setting up ground transport for hospitals that didn't have helipads or "noise ordinances" after dark(Yes trust me they did in a lot of towns), crew requests or lifting and landing at destinations.


I loved the job, weekends usually flew because it was busy most of your whole shift and by the time you realized it, it would be 2-3am already and you'd maybe got up once to go the bathroom or eat. I had some good partners and a couple really bad ones in just 1 year. If it wasn't my ability to multi task there would be no way I would have been able to move on and stay in this line. It was my first communications job and I just kind of adapted to it and loved it. I would have loved to stay there but I disagreed with the management style and the revolving door policy but the crews were awesome to deal with for the most part and it was a very interesting job. 12 hr shift were good but I had a 50 min drive both ways and when the weather sucked it drug on and not getting much sleep in between shifts really beat me up.


I was lucky enough to apply and get hired w/ the Iowa State Patrol in Dec '07 and 2 weeks from today it'll be 3 years. MY center is a smaller center but we cover a large area with the most interstate. We cover 127 miles of I-29, 97 miles of I-80, and 27 miles of I-680 along with 17 counties so it stacks up. The most we run is 2 dispatchers and on overnights, weekends and sometimes during the day we only run 1 depending on vacations and sick time so it stacks up. You could only have 5-6 troopers out during your shift or like today, I'm alone working day shift I currently have 22 troopers out. Some may be in meetings or at their posts, or out patrolling or on accidents whatever it may be. What I didn't mention is I also handle all the DOT MVE, DCI, DNE, SFM, and DNR traffic. When sh*t hits the fan it's not stopping. I'm considered the "black cloud" around this place it seems like I'm always the one who gets the bad accidents or hot calls but I love it. Switching from air medical dispatching to law enforcement was a big change for me. I've grown up around it all my life so I knew what I was getting into for the most part...LOL! I've seen a lot and been able to do alot but with any job if you're not on your toes and can multi task and keep up with it you are never going to last. I could be sitting here handling my 4 car accident that is currently working and next thing I know C-911 is ringing with Big Bob Big Rigger Professional Truck Driver yelling at me because he got passed by a small car that shouldn't be going faster then his governed speed, and 2 counties can start calling for calls to assist on their calls, DCI starts calling to run warrants on people, or even a freak snow storm can drop a couple inches of snow on a 50 miles stretch of I-80 and I have more accidents and vehicles in the ditch then I have cars to assist with. Anything can happen and it call and usually does happen all at once.


Thankfully, I adapted very well when I started. Being able to multi task helped me out greatly. It was a learning curve being I'm more fire oriented then LEO but I got the hang of it and stuck with it. I don't mind it being busy, it's all part of the job. Knowing what is more important, what takes priority is always the first step. Safety is always #1, the phone lines with the press can always wait, your cell phone ringing can always wait, watching the The Drs will always been on every day trust me I have to sit and watch it on certain days and they talk about the same stuff everyday that can wait. The radio is first priority keeping your crews safe. Being at the State level you're held a little higher then others because there is so much you can do and have but don't rely on them as a bandaid or in our case(using medical terms) a trauma dressing like certain other lower level agencies do. Keep up with times and adapt to technology changes, things are always moving forward and accepting that will help. Knowing how your equipment operates and what to do if something fails because if it fails it will when you're in the middle of something major or during a busy time.


I've only been in communications for 4 years and I'm only 24. I know I'm young and 3 years ago to get hired with ISP was huge but they saw something in me and I'm glad they did. It's made me a better person. I might not have all the expierence that some do but I think I've seen my fair share and worked some pretty major things. Obivously, the Interstates is our main focus, winter storms are a nightmare here. We have the worst drivers when it comes every year and it's not uncommon to stack hundreds of cars up in the ditch or medians. I've seen bad accidents, putting out broadcasts on vehicles multiple times a shift for careless driving or the few that actually are intoxicated and get pulled over. My partner and I put multiple broadcasts out on a vehicle we took reports on a couple months ago, little did we know shortly after our last broadcast would he cross the center line in head to head road construction and take out and kill 4 motorcycle riders on I-29. Take a request for officers from a small county that had an officer down from a shooting that turned into an active shooter and 3 hour stand off, which turned into a multi agency response with close to 75-100 officers responding to aid.


I guess with what I know now and have learned in 4 years is that you're never going to be perfect. If you do something really good and mess 1 thing up your going to hear about it. You'll never be good enough to some in the public sector, you're never going to get press releases up fast enough for the press and so on. Always keep an open mind and don't dwell on something if it's bothering you. Work your shift and go on, leave it at the door. If you can't multi task work on it the best you can and do your best. Speak clearly and if you can't hear someone or miss someone traffic just ask them to repeat it. If someone talks waaayyy too fast on the radio and fast enough the call recorder won't pick it up tell them to slow down. Keep your cool under pressure and don't lose it.....(Don't tell Billy Bob Big Rigger Professional Truck Driver that he is an idiot and you don't want to talk to him and anymore of his partners during your shift, Don't hang up on the press or tell them to wait until another news agency has it on their website, Don't tell someone to learn how to change a tire or ask them if their vehicle did not have the optional gas gauge installed, Don't tell the lower level agency if applicable that they are able to handle their own stuff even though you know they can and will not....etc etc etc). Learn new technology and adapt to it. It will help you out greatly! Learn your equipment and if something fails learn how to fix it or call the person that can because if it does fail, it will when you are extremely busy or in the worst possible time. Did I mention Multi task and prioritize yet?


Lastly, if all else fails.....Make sure you have a supply of candy bars and Cherry Pepsi, maybe a can of Camel Frost just in case too...
 

FireEMSPolice

Member
May 21, 2010
3,429
Ohio
When I got hired as a dispatcher, my FTO sucked! I was on 3rd shift with another newbie and we got hired and started on the same day. Her FTO was a bitch but was really helpful. All mine did was bitch about her personal life and always threw tests at me, despite telling her I couldnt learn by written tests and learned by hands on training. She acknowledged I was doing well, except the written tests. The other newbie never got written tests. Hell, she couldnt even grade my tests without asking other dispatchers "Hey, whats this code (or signal) mean?" When she left me high and dry on a 911 call, I told the communications supervisor to reassign me to another FTO. When she said nobody else wanted to be an FTO and I had to have her, despite the head training person asking me to request another FTO, I quit. I didnt want to be responsible for someones death over her not caring.
 

DaveCN5

Member
May 22, 2010
703
South East Michigan
chfdbigbad said:
To all the dispatchers out there,

A close buddy of mine got a job as a dispatcher in a major city and is struggling with it. He is having problems staying calm and processing 911 calls coming in. He just seams overwhelmed with all of it.


Can anyone provide any tips or tricks or just general info, that would be helpful.


Thanks all

I think it depends on what the reason is for him not staying calm. If he's getting excited because "Oh shit, what do I do? What do I do?" that could be a real problem. You have to be able to think quick on your feet (or your ass) in order to survive. Now if he is getting excited because "Oh man, this is intense!" that could be a very good thing. If you enjoy doing your job, you are most likely going to perform well, but that's only as long as you don't get distracted with your excitement.


I've been with the PD for 3 years now and when I first started I had officers complaining because I was getting excited about the bigger calls and would start to speak too fast into the radio, making it hard for them to copy what I was saying. Keeping calm (despite having my heart pumping) is something I REALLY had to work on, but now I don't have that problem anymore and I am the only one there who hasn't been written up yet. We've fired 5 people in the last year and a half. In our recruiting classes we typically hire on 5, but only 1 makes it because the other 4 just aren't cut out for it. It's not something that you can just learn from the book, you really have to work at it, but it can pay off.


Another thing I learned is that there are VERY few people who will call in and say "Hey, great job with that *insert what ever*. You handled that perfectly". It just doesn't happen. Most people only call and bitch about the way you did something wrong. If no one is saying anything to you, that's a good thing! I think I've only been complemented 3 times for my reaction to calls, but it pays off to hear it even those few rare times.

CFD125 said:
I agree with the "born to do it" thing.

One of our new firefighters, only 21 years old (and looks like he's 15) is one of the best damn dispatchers we have ever had.


He is calm, thorough, and quick thinking.


He impressed the police dept. enough that he is also a dispatcher for them now, too.


You go to an MVA into a pole, he's already contaced N-star (power co.). You go to a jaws run, he's already got Med-flight on standby. etc. etc.

See that's another problem though. Most people that are getting hired in as dispatchers don't have any experience on the other side of the radio, so they don't know what to expect. He does, he can think and plan ahead which is something that can't be taught to someone that's coming into the emergency services field as a "fresh pup". I think all dispatchers should be required to go on ride-a-longs with which ever agency they are a dispatcher for so they can get an idea of what is actually happening.
 

Steve0625

Member
Jun 23, 2010
1,213
Northville NY
I dispatched for a very large 9-1-1 center for over 27 years, retiring in 2003. For about 25 of those years, I was a police dispatch instructor for many of the classes coming in. I mentored call takers, police dispatcher, fire/ems dispatchers and worked as a temporary shift supervisor off and on as needed. I served on inter-agency committees to create our MDT system and more.


It's true that some folks are born to the job but even they struggle while in training in our center. There are a lot of policies and procedures to follow and a very high call volume - an average day in our center is 6,000 to 9,000 calls for service. It's not an easy job to learn.


If your center has a good training program and a good FTO program, many folks who are not born to the job can learn to do it. Our Dispatcher I's spend 4 weeks in the classroom for call taking followed by a month of FTO. Then they are back in the classroom for a month of dispatcher (police or fire/ems) and then a minimum of three months FTO; each month with a different FTO and usually a different shift. If they get their wings on time, it has been 6 months since the day they started. If they show promise, they get a 4th month of FTO and then a final evaluation by a senior dispatcher who has not mentored them. If the senior dispatcher sees the "spark" they are retained for another month. Otherwise, they are finished.


Yeah, it's a long road, but when you serve 14 police departments (two of them with more than 600 sworn officers), 38 fire departments (1 is a very large municipal dept.) and over a dozen ambulance services, the requirements are tougher and the training more evolved.


Our trainees get weekly ride alongs while in class. Our certified dispatchers and call takers get quarterly ride alongs throughout their careers. If dispatch agencies don't do regular ride alongs for their people, they are doing them a great disservice.


What is key is the support of training staff, supervision, management, and ultimately, the coworkers. The better the support structure, the better chance a new hire has of succeeding.


For the guy that is struggling, he needs to turn to that support system for help. His FTO needs to point out his strengths and weaknesses on a daily basis. And the FTO needs to tell or show him how to improve on those weaknesses. If there is an FTO conflict, find a way to resolve the conflict or go to the training boss and get another FTO.


I always told my students when you can dispatch a shooting or people trapped MVA or a house fire with people trapped with the same calm and cool that you display when you dispatch a parking complaint, you are well on your way to becoming a dispatcher.
 

Ben E.

Member
May 21, 2010
2,417
Iowa, USA
Brian H said:
I know it would never happen but if you had a 10-80 that ran into the western side of the state I will make sure you get stop sticked for your potty mouth! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Could you repost this again please? When you posted this on the 3rd, I had a 10-80 the same night. But, I did the PIT before he even got out of town.
 

Brian H

Member
May 25, 2010
296
Iowa
Ben E. said:
Could you repost this again please? When you posted this on the 3rd, I had a 10-80 the same night. But, I did the PIT before he even got out of town.

I refuse to do that because you are going to be too busy with the Blizzard...
 

mfdbenji

Member
May 21, 2010
161
Castleton, Vermont
CFD125 said:
You go to an MVA into a pole, he's already contaced N-star (power co.). You go to a jaws run, he's already got Med-flight on standby. etc. etc.

This stuff isnt normal practice for your other dispatchers? Here, that is just part of our job.


I agree for the most part that your born to do it, there are some things you can teach a person to do, but for the most part they need to come into the game already with the skills needed.
 

WhiteLite03

Member
Oct 7, 2010
398
Middle Tennessee
I know I'm resurrecting this thread from the dead, but how about an update on the fella? Still employed, still relatively sane? lol
 

chfdbigbad

Member
May 22, 2010
265
Cincinnati, OH
He quit soon after i put up the original post. He started having some health problems from all the stress and decided it wasn't worth it. I agree with the born to do it thing but I didn't tell him that. Thanks to everyone for the help
 

badge22

Member
Aug 14, 2010
934
MI, United States
crescentstar69 said:
I have every respect for dispatchers. I worked with several cops over the years that were always ragging on them. I didn't realize how stressful it was, until I sat the dispatch console several times so a dispatcher could take a break. Of course, everything would go to hell in a high-speed handbasket every time. I was frazzled after 10 minutes. Cops bitching for a registration, multiple 911 lines ringing, toning the FD out, teletypes coming in, etc. Let's give 'em some respect, guys!


+1


I was one of the last officers to have dispatch training at one of the agencies I worked for. We actually had to be assigned to the dispatch FTO's and run dispatch for two weeks. It is a shame that they discontinued that part of the training program. I am glad for the experience. I was also assigned to dispatch after two dispatchers were fired and one was on FMLA. I always stuck up for them at dept meetings.


It is not an easy job at all. I do not hold anything against anyone who can't seem to get it. I have had several friends that I got dispatcher jobs, one one of them made it.
 

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