HILO
Member
Spotted today in Grand Prairie Texas. Four people in the car, cruising a public park. Of course, they were none to thrilled to see me take their picture!
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Private car with LPRs
- Thread starter HILO
- Start date
K9Vic
Member
Interesting to see that and really lame and obvious with the cameras. I always find it interesting that these people will get upset when someone takes a picture of their car, but they are driving around doing the same. I know you have dealt with that before.
Would that be illegal on private property, like apartment complexes?
The complex can call the police and have the criminally trust-passed, correct?
Also a shopping mall, they really do not like cameras from the TV media outlets on their property. So I can see them not wanting this from private company that is not law enforcement.
Would that be illegal on private property, like apartment complexes?
The complex can call the police and have the criminally trust-passed, correct?
Also a shopping mall, they really do not like cameras from the TV media outlets on their property. So I can see them not wanting this from private company that is not law enforcement.
Interesting. I wonder if they are somehow used for "data mining".
My agency once got a strange NCIC message, perhaps six months or so ago. It was sent from a municipal LEA ORI but it was about a hit resulting from an LPR maintained by a private company. Strangely, the agency could only tell us that the hit occurred, and when and where--- we needed to go to the private company's online resources in order to learn more. That was the first, last, and only time I have ever seen anything like that in nearly two decades on the job.
My agency once got a strange NCIC message, perhaps six months or so ago. It was sent from a municipal LEA ORI but it was about a hit resulting from an LPR maintained by a private company. Strangely, the agency could only tell us that the hit occurred, and when and where--- we needed to go to the private company's online resources in order to learn more. That was the first, last, and only time I have ever seen anything like that in nearly two decades on the job.
hawkspringsfire
Member
I read some where that repo companies paid people to install them on their cars and drive around. When they got a hit of a car that needed repoed they called the company and got a finders fee.
hawkspringsfire said:
Yeah. Reponut on youtube use to have LPR on a tahoe until UT banned them from commercial use.
hawkspringsfire said:
I stopped a car that was equipped with LPR equipment and they worked for a repo company. They would ride through apartment complexes and side streets looking for cars that were on their list. When they got a hit they would call the tow truck which was lurking about a mile away.
They said that new repo information was programmed into their laptop before they went out. The LPR was more efficient than they could ever be. I think we are going to see more of this.
I wrote the driver a.speeding citation, identified the two passengers and sent them on their way.
Now wait a second, law enforcement shouldn't have LPRs cause they'll track people and keep records of where they've been or what they've been doing, at least according to a section of the public and civil rights groups, but no one has said anything about repo guys or the general public having these?! If you ask me, non-leos with LPRs is where the greatest potential for abuse occurs.
Kd8bao
Member
I have seen them around my home area and called the police on them. they told me that like stated above they are witha private company and they were working within the laws of the city and were allowed to do it.
I should see if i can get in on that... haha
I should see if i can get in on that... haha
JohnMarcson
Administrator
License plates aren't private. There is no difference other than efficiency vs. driving around reading and writing down plates. I don't see why it's a problem for LE or private citizens to have these. These will get smaller and smaller until eventually cars all have them and they record their surroundings constantly. The info goes into a "black box" and can be used for accident reconstruction etc. If you or your car are in public, just assume they are being recorded.
SomeBloke
Member
I guess I don't really see a problem with it. Can someone explain what the problem is? I can drive down the street or in a parking lot and look at plates all day long if I want. The newer IP cameras we buy can do this if we wanted them to. I guess if you haven't been making your car payments or are out driving around in a stolen I could see where you might not be a fan.
HILO
Member
Yes it is perfectly legal. When I see one of these private cars with LPR's, I always try to turn around and take a picture of it. Some of the vehicles are owned by the companies, while others are independent contractors (like a courier or auto rescue) in their own vehicles. I've found the ones driving their own cars are the ones that really get upset having their picture taken!
Carlos SpicyWeiner
Lifetime VIP Donor
I would guess that those are probably repo men, or even bounty hunters.
As far as privacy concerns, the only thing that matters is what the system is hooked into on the server side. i.e. repo men or bounty hunters probably won't have NCIC or DMV access, so the only thing they will find out is if the plate matches one that exists in their in house system.
As far as privacy concerns, the only thing that matters is what the system is hooked into on the server side. i.e. repo men or bounty hunters probably won't have NCIC or DMV access, so the only thing they will find out is if the plate matches one that exists in their in house system.
I can see private co using the technology but a limited basis. Why not its not like they are accessing other info. They are searching for cars. The niteclubs scan drivers lic. also but with limited information gleaned from the scanning. Name, description, address and DOB. Who knows now days, could be the NSA is also selling or trading some of the info that is in the mega database with corporate America.
The interesting thing about commercial use of ALPR is that depending on the service provider the data collected (captured image, date/time, and GPS coordinates) are sent to a national server that can be accessed by private investigators, repo companies, and even law enforcement. Some law enforcement agencies even share their data on a national level using this server. In fact, for law enforcement there is a company called Vigilant Solutions (Vigilant Solutions Products) that has a link to NLETS/NCIC. When you run an ALPR query and there is a match, this companies website is referenced to use to look up the data. I know this cause I have used this feature many times and it has proven to be quite useful. It is amazing to see how many security companies and repo companies are starting to use ALPR.
Here in Cincinnati, law enforcement has an ALPR database that built on data from police agencies in the 12 county tristate Homeland Security region (Homeland Security money was used to partly fund this operation) and that database can be accessed by any trained/authorized officer from any of the involved police departments. This regional system even includes ALPR cameras that have been installed at the entrances to local shopping malls, the CVG airport, and the areas casinos. The way it has been designed, the Cincinnati Police Department is responsible for maintaining the database while the mechanics/installers for the Hamilton County Sheriff's Office are responsible for installing the actual cameras and computers in the cars. Each department gets one or two cars through the Homeland Security grant and if they want more they pay for it themselves.
Hope this sheds some light on the topic.
Here in Cincinnati, law enforcement has an ALPR database that built on data from police agencies in the 12 county tristate Homeland Security region (Homeland Security money was used to partly fund this operation) and that database can be accessed by any trained/authorized officer from any of the involved police departments. This regional system even includes ALPR cameras that have been installed at the entrances to local shopping malls, the CVG airport, and the areas casinos. The way it has been designed, the Cincinnati Police Department is responsible for maintaining the database while the mechanics/installers for the Hamilton County Sheriff's Office are responsible for installing the actual cameras and computers in the cars. Each department gets one or two cars through the Homeland Security grant and if they want more they pay for it themselves.
Hope this sheds some light on the topic.
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As a follow up on my previous post, here are two links to reports about the system. The first is a local news report and the second is a law enforcement industry article about the system. There are reports throughout the country that have used Cincinnati's regional system as a model.
Police Chief Magazine - View Article
Police Chief Magazine - View Article
lafd55
Member
I know ALPR Dealers that have them installed just to show departments how they look and work, there is one near me that has his car decked out with them. I think if repo companies can afford them then they should have them, would be good use for them if they are big enough and have a preloaded list of plates in a mobile computer.
K9Vic
Member
This was just uploaded on one my my subscribed YouTube channels about CHP using these.
I am all for law enforcement using these, but private companies I am questionable about them using it. Sure it is public view like Google street view, but they do not drive on private property.
Anyway, here is the video.
I am all for law enforcement using these, but private companies I am questionable about them using it. Sure it is public view like Google street view, but they do not drive on private property.
Anyway, here is the video.
lafd55
Member
My car (patrol) has an ALPR system. It's a cool tool, but some of our policies make it a pain (have to log how many reads/ hits/ misreads/ corrected hits we had, then the citation number(s) and charge(s) that were generated by it, but no personal info is logged that way). I have no problem with a private company using it since, here, they don't have access to GCIC. They create their own computerized hot-sheet using info from the finance companies and the system will only alert on those cars. It's not an invasion of privacy since they information the system has is the same they people would have on paper without the cameras.
factorone33
Member
I used to install these systems for the business I worked for up until two weeks ago, and they're catching on in law enforcement like wildfire. But the Repo guys love them even more (obviously).
The big hoopla right now isn't with why data are being collected, or even by whom, but rather with a few points related to them:
A) How long is it being retained?
B) Is it being used in conjunction with other data that is (or may potentially be) private and/or sensitive (confidential)?
C) Is anyone else besides the collecting entity getting access to, or seeing said data upon collection/retention?
ELSAG North America makes these systems, and they're scary effective (I've seen a 3-camera system on a car collect up to 4 million plates in a single year if used with the right methods); not only do they record the plate and take a photo of it, they also record:
1. GPS coordinates of where the plate was seen
2. Time and Date
3. A photo of the vehicle
So you can technically "track" where a vehicle has been at certain times and points, but not constantly as some people would have you think. But that's not the point: the point is that these data that are stored are being used beyond their intended purposes: Vigilant and Federal Signal have both had lawsuits brought up against them by the ALCU over LPR systems being used for nefarious reasons, including agencies and vendors selling plate and owner data to insurance companies and other entities for several reasons, so clearly there are reasons to be concerned (though I wouldn't drop off the grid just because of this).
The big hoopla right now isn't with why data are being collected, or even by whom, but rather with a few points related to them:
A) How long is it being retained?
B) Is it being used in conjunction with other data that is (or may potentially be) private and/or sensitive (confidential)?
C) Is anyone else besides the collecting entity getting access to, or seeing said data upon collection/retention?
ELSAG North America makes these systems, and they're scary effective (I've seen a 3-camera system on a car collect up to 4 million plates in a single year if used with the right methods); not only do they record the plate and take a photo of it, they also record:
1. GPS coordinates of where the plate was seen
2. Time and Date
3. A photo of the vehicle
So you can technically "track" where a vehicle has been at certain times and points, but not constantly as some people would have you think. But that's not the point: the point is that these data that are stored are being used beyond their intended purposes: Vigilant and Federal Signal have both had lawsuits brought up against them by the ALCU over LPR systems being used for nefarious reasons, including agencies and vendors selling plate and owner data to insurance companies and other entities for several reasons, so clearly there are reasons to be concerned (though I wouldn't drop off the grid just because of this).
TheGatekeeper
Member
Cam said:
I do.
Looking at plates and writing them down will not tell you the driver's personal details unless you start follow them home and stalk them...
As long as these repo guys have access to a limited database -tag numbers read by their ANPR cams only flag tag numbers matching cars to be repo'd- it's acceptable I suppose. But I wouldn't want them to be able to punch in my daughter's plate number and get to know where she lives.
Is this scenario farfetched ? What are the safeguards to that ?
wx8sky
Member
I worked for a repo co. in the past and loved this setup they had. It made finding "skips" a whole lot easier...only time I ever had issues with hits was when I was in a mall parking lot and a church parking lot.
HILO
Member
TheGatekeeper said:
These private ALPR cameras do not give the user access to personal information like a LE vehicle would have. They simply upload their own hotsheet of plates they are looking for and the camera system alerts if they pass by it.
lafd55
Member
It seems like a lot of people who are looking at this thread think that when someone has ALPRs they automatically have access to DMV databases.
TheGatekeeper
Member
Well, most users this side of the pond are government agencies.
The private companies which run and administer highways did get these accesses as of late in order to tackle toll fraud.
The private companies which run and administer highways did get these accesses as of late in order to tackle toll fraud.
HILO
Member
lafd55 said:
I'm a people that knows the DMV data base is always for sale in most states. In Texas car dealerships, automobile auctions, and wrecker companies, can access the Texas DMV through a private company that sells the subscriptions. The info includes car info, owner name and address, and lien holder. A Public Data account allows one to search a license plate number, and click a link to find other vehicles registered to that address. Lexisnexis, which is a very expensive account to have, has even more detailed info. License plates are public information. Before the interwebs, you could mail a license plate number and $5 to Texas DMV and get vehicle info.
TheGatekeeper
Member
K9Vic
Member
As HILO said, in Texas it is easy to access the DMV database by anyone. So yes private companies that have LPR cameras can look up DMV information on any plate they see.
Some states block the easy access to this, but Texas it not one of them and it accessible through "Public Data" on the Internet by anyone that wants to pay the yearly subscription fees.
Some states block the easy access to this, but Texas it not one of them and it accessible through "Public Data" on the Internet by anyone that wants to pay the yearly subscription fees.
MESDA6
Member
I would rather they had access to this data through legal means than illegal means. If they have a legitimate avenue to obtain the information, that also means that everything they access can be tracked and any misuse documented.
If, like the old days they have "a buddy who runs their tags," it is much harder to track what they are doing with that info.
Anyone who expects to be anonymous in this day and age is fooling themselves.
If, like the old days they have "a buddy who runs their tags," it is much harder to track what they are doing with that info.
Anyone who expects to be anonymous in this day and age is fooling themselves.
delcofirecop
Member
i know this is an older thread but i am a reposessor with alot of knowledge of these systems so i will chime in. first off drn or mvtrac or reposystems the 3 main alpr systems for repo companies only give you the persons info if it is indeed a vehicle out for repo that is scanned and even then all you get is the info needed to effect the reposession. and for the record most states i would say about 40 of them have dmv info as either public or semi public access pa for instance is semi public as repo companies car dealers auto related businesses can sign up for limited access which allows me to take a tag number and see if there is a lein on a vehicle and the last registered owners info as well as a leinholders if there is a valid lein i use the system to verify a vehicle has a proper lein before reposessing it i however can not see drivers history info ticket info etc etc and each tag i check is kept on record and if the penn state police decide to check my records i better have a valid reason for checking each tag or i am in deep doodoo.
RES347CUE
Member
I saw one of these cars in Dallas last weekend, it was a yellow Ford Focus. When I first saw it I wasn't sure what it was, then it clicked and I thought about this thread.
Doesn't sound like an awful idea, but I'm sure people that have something to worry about will not like this.
Doesn't sound like an awful idea, but I'm sure people that have something to worry about will not like this.
Saw an old Malibu (2002 or so) with LPRs a few years ago on I-66, out in the mountains and pretty far from the DC burbs. No blinkies, but I could see a laptop like the ones a lot of police cars have, so it might have been a state police test machine or something.
emergency_ram12
Member
There is a county in Missouri that has one on each corner of the vehicle. They are being used to track stolen vehicles. With FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) anything and everything is open to citizens. Especially with being in the military I have called the MPs numerous times and have gotten information about someone by using their license plates. If license plates were meant to be private they wouldn't have numbers on them instead they would have QR Codes or barcodes. I like the idea of LEO's or Reposessors having LPRs as it makes their work a little safer IMO.
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