Rant

Mattdecker

Member
Mar 16, 2013
1,172
Barren County, Kentucky
Ok. After some deliberation, I've decided to post here and get some feedback from everyone on here.

I'm a member of a volunteer department for going on almost 2.5 years. Experience with previous departments also.

I've run into a little friction with the department here lately regarding driving the engines and so forth.

I have had our state required course 4 times that I can recall within the last 3 years. I have also had pump ops several times and, while rusty, I can pump a truck if needed. My department, mainly some of the officers, have problems with people who aren't officers driving the engines, either emergency or non emergency.

I have repeatedly asked to be put through the drivers course for our engines, the tanker is a different beast and I'm not ready for that yet, and have been repeatedly denied.

I've been told 3 times since last November that we were going to have a round of drivers training and that I'd be able to drive the engines if the need arised.

The most recent time I asked to drive was for our July 4th parade which is Saturday. Most of our drivers are tied up doing something else, so I asked to drive one of our engines the 1/4 mile length of the parade.

Well, one officer said yeah that it was fine and another told me that all trucks had drivers except for the brush truck that I always drive.

I do have permission to drive the brush trucks. I have never been written up for speeding in the brush trucks, either emergency or non emergency, and have never been written up for speeding or breaking any SOP's when running emergency in my pov.

My main problem with this is, they recently let another guy who got put on after me who had absolutely no experience with engines or fire departments in general (and is also under the legal age to drive a fire truck in Ky), drive our 2nd newest engine 15-20 miles into the neighboring county by himself for a firefighters funeral.

And when I bring this up, the topic suddenly changes and it gets brushed off.

Am I right to be upset at this fact or am I blowing this out of proportion?

I hate to have to resort to getting rude or angry with someone but it's something that's kinda beginning to get under my skin.

We had a possible structure fire a few months ago and I was the only one to show up (I made several phone calls and no one was in town and 1 person went en route pov since they were 5 miles from the scene). I asked them what was I supposed to do in that case and the answer I pretty much got was sit at the station until someone showed up and if no one did then another department would have to handle it (we have an automatic 3 department knockout for structures).

Please tell me what your opinions are regarding the whole situation.
 

Tony P

Moderator
Sep 13, 2015
1,940
Midwest, USA
If the officer's are driving, who is in the officer's seat? Do they stay with the rig once on scene or leave it to go play incident command?

At the agencies I dispatch for, the officer always ride shotgun and the driver always stays with the rig. No exceptions. The drivers do have to be the rank of engineers and know the ins and outs of the apparatus they are driving and responsible for
 

Mattdecker

Member
Mar 16, 2013
1,172
Barren County, Kentucky
If the officer's are driving, who is in the officer's seat? Do they stay with the rig once on scene or leave it to go play incident command?

At the agencies I dispatch for, the officer always ride shotgun and the driver always stays with the rig. No exceptions. The drivers do have to be the rank of engineers and know the ins and outs of the apparatus they are driving and responsible for

For us it's either another officer or most of the time it's just a regular firefighter.

Of course with it being a volunteer only department, you never know who is going to show up.

We have 1 guy who is an actual engineer. The rest are just guys who have been on for a while.

Our driver always stays with the apparatus as well.

I, personally, just feel like they are not taking someone who is willing to learn how to pump and drive, very seriously.

I'd love to learn to be an engineer. I am mostly a pack guy for whatever we have, but my thing is: what happens when no one shows up to drive or pump? Am I supposed to sit there while they page us out knowing I can't go. We aren't allowed to go to the scene in our pov unless we have to pass it.
 

rcfd34

Member
Oct 24, 2011
503
Illinois
At our department it don't matter who shows up or rank who ever wants to drive it drives w.e they want we don't have an officer seat who ever shows up we just try to get 2 guys in a truck minus our rescue that has to have 4 of we have the guys. We have no drive training minus our practices and having the license threw the state
 
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Mattdecker

Member
Mar 16, 2013
1,172
Barren County, Kentucky
At our department it don't matter who shows up or rank who ever wants to drive it drives w.e they want we don't have an officer seat who ever shows up we just try to get 2 guys in a truck minus our rescue that has to have 4 of we have the guys. We have no drive training minus our practices and having the license threw the state

Yup. We have guys who only want to drive. Which is fine by me when they show up.

Per our SOP's/SOG's, everyone is supposed to respond to the firehouse to grab the trucks. The only exceptions to that are EMT/First Responders, and officers. That being said, the Chief and assistant chief, and emt' mainly go pov. Most of our other officers come to the fire house cause they are the ones driving.

My main thing is, what happens when they don't show up and I cant drive.

I've asked and asked and no one wants to teach someone who is willing to learn. I've come close to being fed up and have considered moving on to another department but I don't want it to get to that point.

We have an active roster of 20-25 firefighters. Half of them are officers and half of the roster never shows up.

We have a captain who I've seen make a run 3 times in 2.5 years.
 

Mattdecker

Member
Mar 16, 2013
1,172
Barren County, Kentucky
At our department it don't matter who shows up or rank who ever wants to drive it drives w.e they want we don't have an officer seat who ever shows up we just try to get 2 guys in a truck minus our rescue that has to have 4 of we have the guys. We have no drive training minus our practices and having the license threw the state

In both our new tanker and our newest pumper, the officers seats have air packs in them.

I have been packed up in our engine, ready to go for a car fire, and had an officer come in yank me out of the front so he could sit up there and talk on the radio and play with the siren.

When we arrived in scene guess who did the work? Me, by myself. Officer didn't even bother to put his gear on to help. Just sat on the bumper of the engine smoking.
 

Sparky_911

Supporting Donor
May 15, 2013
2,648
Central Illinois
It's unfortunate that a volunteer dept puts restrictions on people willing to learn and better themselves for the benefit of the community. It could also become a liability issue for your dept when they have driving qualified personnel but don't let them drive. Wait til some attorney gets a hold of that after someone's house burns down.

My dept has no restrictions on our rigs that a regular class C license can handle. Get the damn thing to the call is our priority. The only exception is the 2 rigs that require a class B by law. But once you pass the driving test and go get you license you're good to go, of course you have to be off probation (1 year) first.
 
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C17LVFD

Member
May 21, 2010
1,537
Harrisburg, PA
To me this is classic of the fire service(generalizing here). 200 years of progress impeded by tradition or the other way around.

If your at a dept where they don't appreciate you and they're willing to endanger the lives of the citizens they serve to serve an antiquated agenda, move on. On bad can come of this. When the chips fall you don't want to be anywhere near it.

As an aside, if you can't see eye to eye about driving and getting there safely, why in the heck would you trust following them into a burning building.

It sounds like there isn't trust and respect. In the fire service not having trust and respect for a fellow firefighter is what gets us killed.

Move on. Its funny, when you apply to a new dept they want to interview you. I say you interview them. It's your life your putting in their hands.

Best of luck and stay safe,
Seth
 
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CrownVic97

Member
May 21, 2010
3,350
Hazen, ND
My main problem with this is, they recently let another guy who got put on after me who had absolutely no experience with engines or fire departments in general (and is also under the legal age to drive a fire truck in Ky), drive our 2nd newest engine 15-20 miles into the neighboring county by himself for a firefighters funeral.

And when I bring this up, the topic suddenly changes and it gets brushed off.

Am I right to be upset at this fact or am I blowing this out of proportion?

Nope, I don't think you are wrong in being very upset with your department. The higher ups let an underage, non-experienced greenhorn behind the wheel of a fully-equipped, water-filled, multi-ton engine over someone like you that has 2 1/2 years of firefighting under your belt and is more familiar with the operation of the heavier apparatus, even though they have not trained or allowed you to drive ANY of them. That's not only beyond stupid, that's wreckless.

Can you imagine if that kid wrecked the engine on the way over? Hit another vehicle by accident and caused great bodily harm and/or death? Holy $#%T, your department would be crucified in a heartbeat in court, not to mention that those who gave the go ahead to take the engine out would never work in any public service job ever as long as they breathe and probably be facing jail time!

I agree with C17LVFD. Don't waste your time there anymore or put yourself in harm's way for people that don't care for their fellow firemen. Get off that ship before it sinks so you can find a department that actually values its members and looks out for each other. If they want an explanation, say what you gotta say and walk out that door knowing you've got better ethical and moral standing than they do as a fire fighter.
 
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Mattdecker

Member
Mar 16, 2013
1,172
Barren County, Kentucky
To me this is classic of the fire service(generalizing here). 200 years of progress impeded by tradition or the other way around.

If your at a dept where they don't appreciate you and they're willing to endanger the lives of the citizens they serve to serve an antiquated agenda, move on. On bad can come of this. When the chips fall you don't want to be anywhere near it.

As an aside, if you can't see eye to eye about driving and getting there safely, why in the heck would you trust following them into a burning building.

It sounds like there isn't trust and respect. In the fire service not having trust and respect for a fellow firefighter is what gets us killed.

Move on. Its funny, when you apply to a new dept they want to interview you. I say you interview them. It's your life your putting in their hands.

Best of luck and stay safe,
Seth

Nope, I don't think you are wrong in being very upset with your department. The higher ups let an underage, non-experienced greenhorn behind the wheel of a fully-equipped, water-filled, multi-ton engine over someone like you that has 2 1/2 years of firefighting under your belt and is more familiar with the operation of the heavier apparatus, even though you have not driven ANY of them. That's not only beyond stupid, that's wreckless.

Can you imagine if that kid wrecked the engine on the way over? Hit another vehicle by accident and caused great bodily harm and/or death? Holy $#%T, your department would be crucified in a heartbeat in court, not to mention that those who gave the go ahead to take the engine out would never work in any public service job ever as long as they breathe and probably be facing jail time!

I agree with C17LVFD. Don't waste your time there anymore or put yourself in harm's way for people that don't care for their fellow firemen. Get off that ship before it sinks so you can find a department that actually values its members and looks out for each other. If they want an explanation, say what you gotta say and walk out that door knowing you've got better ethical and moral standing than they do as a fire fighter.

Exactly. It's not just about driving with me. I would love you learn like I said earlier.

We have 1 guy who thinks he absolutely must drive the medical truck. He been wrote up for speeding 2x already and kicked off a neighboring dept for speeding to calls (60-70 mph in a 45).

We got paged out to a routine (one of our regulars at a local motel) medical one day. He left his 6 month old child that was in the car seat, on the bumper of our rescue engine, ran 2 trucks down and jumped in the drivers seat, before the tones finished dropping. The mother, his girlfriend, was in the back in the bathroom.

All of this because he just wanted to drive.


One of the main issues with our department is our chief is an officer of the paid department nearby.

I'm not knocking career firefighters by any means. But our city actually has a rule that if you are on a paid department, you can't hold an officers position. The reason being is cause they don't want our department being ran like a career department. Guess what's happening?

We don't have any say so about who our chief or officers are. Our mayor picks who he wants to be chief and the chief picks officers. We don't even have a say as to who gets on the department. The chief may ask if we have any objections, but ultimately it's his decision.
 

Mattdecker

Member
Mar 16, 2013
1,172
Barren County, Kentucky
Nope, I don't think you are wrong in being very upset with your department. The higher ups let an underage, non-experienced greenhorn behind the wheel of a fully-equipped, water-filled, multi-ton engine over someone like you that has 2 1/2 years of firefighting under your belt and is more familiar with the operation of the heavier apparatus, even though they have not trained or allowed you to drive ANY of them. That's not only beyond stupid, that's wreckless.

Can you imagine if that kid wrecked the engine on the way over? Hit another vehicle by accident and caused great bodily harm and/or death? Holy $#%T, your department would be crucified in a heartbeat in court, not to mention that those who gave the go ahead to take the engine out would never work in any public service job ever as long as they breathe and probably be facing jail time!

I agree with C17LVFD. Don't waste your time there anymore or put yourself in harm's way for people that don't care for their fellow firemen. Get off that ship before it sinks so you can find a department that actually values its members and looks out for each other. If they want an explanation, say what you gotta say and walk out that door knowing you've got better ethical and moral standing than they do as a fire fighter.

Mind you, this is also the department (mainly the chief) who kicked a seasoned firefighter off (took our newest pumper northbound in the southbound lanes of I65, with traffic still heavily flowing and snow on the ground, after being told on the radio not to) and then let him back on 6 months after I got on (I got his gear, unit #, and radio when he got kicked off and I got out on).
 

CrownVic97

Member
May 21, 2010
3,350
Hazen, ND
Boy, it sounds like a got-dang mess there. And this part....
We have 1 guy who thinks he absolutely must drive the medical truck. He been wrote up for speeding 2x already and kicked off a neighboring dept for speeding to calls (60-70 mph in a 45).

We got paged out to a routine (one of our regulars at a local motel) medical one day. He left his 6 month old child that was in the car seat, on the bumper of our rescue engine, ran 2 trucks down and jumped in the drivers seat, before the tones finished dropping. The mother, his girlfriend, was in the back in the bathroom.

All of this because he just wanted to drive.
.....what an arse :mad:. He would have got a world-class ass-chewing from me if I saw that BS. So that's 2 people on the crew that's gonna wind up giving your FD a lawsuit they will not be able to handle someday.

Mind you, this is also the department (mainly the chief) who kicked a seasoned firefighter off (took our newest pumper northbound in the southbound lanes of I65, with traffic still heavily flowing and snow on the ground, after being told on the radio not to) and then let him back on 6 months after I got on (I got his gear, unit #, and radio when he got kicked off and I got out on).

Jeez! No common sense whatsoever it seems.
 
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Mattdecker

Member
Mar 16, 2013
1,172
Barren County, Kentucky
Boy, it sounds like a got-dang mess there. And this part....

.....what an arse :mad:. He would have got a world-class ass-chewing from me if I saw that BS. So that's 2 people on the crew that's gonna wind up giving your FD a lawsuit they will not be able to handle someday.

Sad....

Wanna know the saddest thing? Those 2 are father and son.

He came close to getting kicked off our department when he decided to take our medical truck (F-550) and play chicken in front of the firehouse on the main road with another member in his personal vehicle.

The other member drives Amish and was stopping by the firehouse for something when this happened. He actually left skid marks on the road where he locked his SUV up to keep from being hit. He called one of the officers and told him what happened. They told him one for screw up and he was done.
 
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CrownVic97

Member
May 21, 2010
3,350
Hazen, ND
Wanna know the saddest thing? Those 2 are father and son.

He came close to getting kicked off our department when he decided to take our medical truck (F-550) and play chicken in front of the firehouse on the main road with another member in his personal vehicle.

The other member drives Amish and was stopping by the firehouse for something when this happened. He actually left skid marks on the road where he locked his SUV up to keep from being hit. He called one of the officers and told him what happened. They told him one for screw up and he was done.

That should have been an automatic termination and a call to the Kentucky State Police shortly thereafter. Yeah, you'd best look elsewhere to be a fire fighter. Just a bad scene waiting to happen, man....
 

JazzDad

Member
Aug 5, 2011
5,165
USA
It comes back to the question: Who is responsible for your safety? First & foremost - you.

As others have said, do you want to be caught up in the lawsuit that is coming? Shake the dust from your feet and move on.
 
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Mattdecker

Member
Mar 16, 2013
1,172
Barren County, Kentucky
Thanks everyone for the replies.

I'm still giving it consideration. I can't just up and move right now since my lease isn't up yet.

I don't want to just up and leave the department either. I love what I do and don't want to leave my community with a loss. There has been several times where I'm the only one to make a run period at any given time (medicals and such).

I know that stuff could end up for the worse and I'm hoping things will be changed.

We do not have a board of directors, everything is decided by the city council.

They and the mayor have been made aware of stuff and it's slowly making changes. I'm hoping more and more will take place soon.
 

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