Real talk - flash patterns

the Tasty Cat

Member
Jun 4, 2011
31
Nashville, TN
So...here it is widely accepted that flash patterns to the rear, especially when stationary, should be slow (60-120fpm). Why is it that I seldom, if ever, see this in practice in everyday life? Fire apparatus and ambulances are the closest contenders, but interestingly they're also the two vehicles which are *least* likely to be pulled over on a shoulder with traffic passing, therefore not in as critical need of effective rear warning as law enforcement, highway utility, etc. I can't tell you the last time I saw a police vehicle on a shoulder with anything that could begin to resemble a slow pattern.

So maybe I'm missing the point. When you all say slow flash patterns to the rear, I assumed a slow alternating single all around. But I never see this - perhaps just having one set of lightheads doing such a pattern is considered sufficient? It does seem like a small amount of strobe or some quicker flashing somewhere would draw the eye, so perhaps everyone's going for a combination? In the install showoff subforum here when people have lightbars, there's still plenty of quick flashing, so I suspect there's more to this than I thought.

Thanks all!
 

Dave F

Moderator
Sep 13, 2015
1,343
Berks County, PA
I speak purely as myself, and not as a site recommendation:

Unfortunately alot of that falls on customers/ end users. Many installers will try to talk the end users into a more, practical pattern. But for some reason the end users will more often that not opt for the razzle dazzle seizure inducing patterns you commonly see.

There is also the fact that some are simply factory stock pattern that an end user never changes.

You will more likely see the slower/smarter patterns on smaller fleets or POVs.

Hands down having one set (if multiple sets are used) of slower patterns will grab way more attention than any seizure pattern could ever hope to get. In the daytime the pattern will stand out against the sun more; and at night when a low power isnt available (or used) they wont be nearly as distracting/blinding to drivers. Warning lights are just that, meant to warn: not cause more problems: which faster patterns tend to do
 

the Tasty Cat

Member
Jun 4, 2011
31
Nashville, TN
Dave, there is so much wisdom here - I really appreciate your response. So interesting that something so fundamental in lighting would go unheeded so often! Really does make sense.

Just for fun, anybody have a video of a patrol car actually using a slow pattern? You wouldn't believe local and state LE here - Whelen Liberty bars with just one pattern option (besides TA, which is rarely used), and it is pretty epileptic. If they can dim, I've never seen it!
 

JazzDad

Member
Aug 5, 2011
5,165
USA
Dave is so right about the "razzle dazzle seizure inducing patterns".

Another thing I advocate is not having multiple colours on at the same time. Each colour has its own strengths and weaknesses, dependent on the ambient light (or lack thereof).

Dark time is also important, as it forces the eye/ brain into a moment of transition.

I think Victoria has hit it right on the head.
Even the 'movement', left then right, attracts so much more attention than the big flashing blob of purple we see so often.
 

buddek09

Member
Aug 15, 2012
339
US, Ohio
Dave is right about the customer choosing the patterns. Though this one isn't the greatest I did use slower patterns for the rear of the lightbar. They only use mode 1 or 2 when parked on the side of the road. I admit the front is bad on mode 3 but this was not the final pattern. I was still playing with the bar when the video was done. Plus I knew they were going to change the patterns and have done so I don't know how many times now. Mode 1 is the only pattern that was kept, mode 2 changed to a much faster and more random pattern, mode 3 again is faster but isn't as bad as the front in this video.
 

firebuff17

Member
Mar 28, 2011
774
CT
I also agree with Dave.
Many Dept’s (especially in more recent times with increasingly lower budget constraints) can’t afford the extra wire length (minimal in a car), the extra hour of labor setting all light heads patterns, etc to be able to sync all light heads in a car. I believe Installers do their best to inform the Dept of the effectiveness of sync, slow To the rear, etc but Dept’s opt not to spend the extra money/time on it.
So installers follow the requests of the purchasing Dept and install said lights and lightbars using default, out of the package flash patterns (which are the seizure inducing, split fail patterns).
We on this forum realize the importance of effective sync’d patterns and how little effort and money it takes to install them. But falls on deaf ears of the money crunched penny pinching city/town officials.
 

pdk9

Member
May 26, 2010
3,834
New York & Florida
Fire apparatus and ambulances are the closest contenders, but interestingly they're also the two vehicles which are *least* likely to be pulled over on a shoulder with traffic passing, therefore not in as critical need of effective rear warning as law enforcement, highway utility, etc. I can't tell you the last time I saw a police vehicle on a shoulder with anything that could begin to resemble a slow pattern.

So maybe I'm missing the point. When you all say slow flash patterns to the rear, I assumed a slow alternating single all around. But I never see this - perhaps just having one set of lightheads doing such a pattern is considered sufficient? It does seem like a small amount of strobe or some quicker flashing somewhere would draw the eye, so perhaps everyone's going for a combination? In the install showoff subforum here when people have lightbars, there's still plenty of quick flashing, so I suspect there's more to this than I thought.

Why do you say fire is not likely to be pulled over with traffic passing? Fire apparatus block a lot (unlike ambulances). I always have the engine/aerial take 1 extra lane to provide a buffer for us to work with and have a 2nd engine park a few hundred feet back strictly as a 2nd blocker that slows traffic down. The rear and sides of fire apparatus are definitely seen on the side of the road by passing traffic often, so it’s important for them to have flash patterns that won’t cause blindness and seizures. Some PDs (ie FHP) don’t allow their cruisers to block lanes of traffic :-/

It all depends on the customers and (many times) the ppl in charge of approving the apparatus purchases don’t know enough about the lights or don’t care. ie our new ambulances have M-series lights on all sides of the box, but they still use older TIR6 and 400 series lights on the front and sides of the international cab b/c they’re too lazy to change the specs and just reorder the same shit. Customers either specify fast patterns b/c one stubborn person in charge likes them and doesn’t consider safety studies or trends. The upfitters either do whatever the customer specifies or default to some random pattern (ie Horton does this annoying scan pattern without syncing the lights unless they’re told to do otherwise).

Few depts do safety studies or have knowledgeable whackers like us making the call. ie Florida and California Highway Patrol are 2 of the only depts in the US that conduct studies and update their vehicle packages accordingly
 

the Tasty Cat

Member
Jun 4, 2011
31
Nashville, TN
Why do you say fire is not likely to be pulled over with traffic passing?

Well I suppose I deserve that...rarely does fire or EMS block anything *around here.* Unless they're not yet on scene, it's always done by police or DOT. Apparently that's not the practice in other places. So funny that other places don't allow LE to block traffic, where here that's the norm. Does seem a bit silly to have an engine hundreds of feet away from a scene when it's a working piece of equipment that surely would be useful at the scene itself, unlike a patrol car. Pros and cons to a lot of different ways of doing things!

Anyway, most fire apparatus here have only two halogen rotators at the rear, one red, one amber. Occasionally you'll see a TA, usually not. I'd rather not block a lane on a 70 MPH interstate with two rotators :)
 

pdk9

Member
May 26, 2010
3,834
New York & Florida
I don’t think FHP’s rule forbidding their vehicles from blocking lanes of traffic is a common practice; they’re the only ones that I know of.

In most of south Florida, 1-2 engines/aerials always blocks traffic (even if it’s a spare with less impressive lighting). We’ve had engines with plenty of LED lighting to the rear that have been hit but distracted or DUI drivers, so we’ll sacrifice a rig going to the body shop or suffering minor damage any day of the week if it saves a life, b/c you can’t replace the value of that 50+ ton roadblock.

We have Road Rangers (Tow Trucks dispatched by FHP that assist motorists and setup cones at accidents), but ppl swerve around cones, run cones over, or try to squeeze through ANY POSSIBLE little gap/opening that you leave open. I learned the last lesson the hard way when a driver almost killed our officer when we were parked on the right shoulder...a car full of old ppl almost took him out as they passed us on the shoulder at 70 mph on the officer side of the engine as he was getting ready to hop out. Since he was getting out on the “curb side” of the rig that was parked on the shoulder, he didn’t expect to have anything come on his side. Whether it’s on local roads or highways, I’ll use our 50 ton engines/aerials as blocking units all day long and will never just rely on a 4,000 lb LE patrol car or small tow truck with traffic cones that can be pushed out of the way of a vehicles traveling fast enough
 

the Tasty Cat

Member
Jun 4, 2011
31
Nashville, TN
Well I hadn't considered the sheer stopping power of the trucks as blunt force barriers :) that certainly would impart a measure of security that a patrol car would not. I have to laugh - when DOT does rolling roadwork, their dump trucks tow these compressible barrier things, basically so if they get hit, the towed barrier compresses and absorbs much of the impact. I was a little surprised when I first saw them but hey, the truth is that people are idiots and will do what you least expect them to do - might as well be prepared for that and physically stop them if possible. Pretty smart.
 

JazzDad

Member
Aug 5, 2011
5,165
USA
I like the FD that got an old dump truck from their town's PWD to use as a barrier.
 
May 28, 2010
118
Loveland, Ohio
I have seen fast patterns that get attention and slow ones as well-I know CHP has a "system" as does NYPD (as far as LED directional flash patterns)...however-what is the latest science? Have there been any non-bias studies showing what is the best as far as warning, asking for right of way etc.
I generally "think" lots of attention getting light "movement" to the front (with some steady red) and slower solid patterns to the rear is good-but what's the science say...if there is any? Thanks! Billy G
 

bmd224

Member
Nov 3, 2011
324
NE Kansas
Three position slide switch has a lot to do with it. Why?
Well, position 1 is usually a slow, very basic set of alternating flashers. Something that can be used at a crime scene on a small side street.
Position 3 is the ‘code-3’, “watch out everyone because I’m responding hot to a dire emergency” mode that many times has a fast pattern, with flashing white to the front, & a traffic preemption signal device.
So, position 2 is the middle ground—lots of light, but slower, ‘blockier’ patterns without white incorporated.
Now.... how many patrol officers do you see change from pattern 3 to pattern 2 when on a Terry stop or roadside assist?
I’ve trained public safety (police, fire, & ems) for years & I’ve witnessed two constants in their mindsets:
1). If there’s a button to push, they have to jamb on it repeatedly to see what it does,
2). More is always better (wrong, but that’s how they think).
So, perhaps responders aren’t turning down from position three to position 2 because they have those above listed mindsets. They think, “I really don’t want to get rear ended while parked out here, so I’m going to throw every ounce of light I can at passing motorists in the hopes they’ll see me & avoid striking me.
 

pdk9

Member
May 26, 2010
3,834
New York & Florida
Irving FD (Tx) is using 2 old Pierce Enforcers strictly for blocking. They’re housed at 2 stations with aerials, and the FF on the TDA/Truck co will drive it to the scene and set it up as a blocker.
There’s a Catch 22 to this; it’s a great idea in theory b/c a front line rig (ie a $1+ million aerial or $500K+ engine) won’t be damaged or go O.O.S. if struck, but the downside is that most depts don’t have the extra units to spare 2 rigs specifically for this purpose or the resources to maintain such rigs.

We can Monday Night Quarterback all we want, but the reality is that most decision-makers on dept vehicle committees don’t know what we know here, and most installers either don’t care about flash patterns or cant convince the customer to change their minds
 
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Sparky_911

Supporting Donor
May 15, 2013
2,648
Central Illinois
bmd224 has a good point, for some the mindset is "more the better/won't hit me" or "just turn it all on". This is a training issue that departments need to work on.

I know from my experience, both on the street and on the other side of the radio those are very rampant mindsets in the public safety arena.

When I do an install I'll even show video of the actual vehicle what one pattern looks like vs another. Close up and at distance. That usually opens a few eyes.
 
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SoCalCop

New Member
Dec 12, 2016
3
Southern California
Here are our rear patterns. Starts off in mode 3 then shuts off then modes 1 and 2 (which are the same) then back to mode 3.




Car on the right is the Whelen liberty 2 and the car on the left is the code 3 Rx2700. The Whelen Single flash 90fpm vs quad and qint-flash on the code 3 Rx2700.

 
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liltum56

New Member
Apr 28, 2018
11
Honolulu
Like they said, slow simultaneous flashes for the rear with a traffic advisor. Slow flashes can be seen more from a distance and help drivers gauge how far you are. Also having the lights at both ends of your car helps drivers distinguish how far ahead you are too. Rapid seizure lights grab attention but also cause confusion, along with having to many lights. That’s probably why your hazards lights from the factory are as wide as possible and flash at a slow rate. Traffic advisors tell drivers automatically what to do and where to go. If you’ve ever directed traffic, you’ll see how dumb the public can be and how much direction they need.

Front lights I’d say go with faster flash, but not night club fast, with a few on a slow flash. When going coded, shows your urgency with a faster flash and the slow flashes help drivers see you from a distance.
 

Evtech161

New Member
Nov 9, 2016
157
Woburn
Dave, there is so much wisdom here - I really appreciate your response. So interesting that something so fundamental in lighting would go unheeded so often! Really does make sense.

Just for fun, anybody have a video of a patrol car actually using a slow pattern? You wouldn't believe local and state LE here - Whelen Liberty bars with just one pattern option (besides TA, which is rarely used), and it is pretty epileptic. If they can dim, I've never seen it!

Here in Mass, the state police have been using the whelen cantrol product. Very similar to the carbide, but with a lot more extras. When set up correctly, the unit will monitor the park mode of the vehicle, and put all lighting into a slower flash pattern. if you go to my you tube page, you can see a K9 cruiser we completed with the carbide installed. The beginning of the vid is all slides from the install, if you skip to the end there are videos of the two modes. It can be a little labor intensive but its a very solid reliable system. By coincidence, like Dave had mentioned the build was for a smaller town, North of Boston- lol heres the link
 

Evtech161

New Member
Nov 9, 2016
157
Woburn
Irving FD (Tx) is using 2 old Pierce Enforcers strictly for blocking. They’re housed at 2 stations with aerials, and the FF on the TDA/Truck co will drive it to the scene and set it up as a blocker.
There’s a Catch 22 to this; it’s a great idea in theory b/c a front line rig (ie a $1+ million aerial or $500K+ engine) won’t be damaged or go O.O.S. if struck, but the downside is that most depts don’t have the extra units to spare 2 rigs specifically for this purpose or the resources to maintain such rigs.

We can Monday Night Quarterback all we want, but the reality is that most decision-makers on dept vehicle committees don’t know what we know here, and most installers either don’t care about flash patterns or cant convince the customer to change their minds

Although I have always valued your critiques, I have to say as an installer, The Flash pattern makes the build. While,you are correct in saying some customers know what they want, and wont back down, I personally as a Manager and installer wont allow a vehicle to leave unless it looks right. A lot of departments, wont allow us to make changes because of uniformity. "All the vehicles have to match" So sometimes we, as the installing shop have to deal with the stupidity of two shops ago, and however many years ago, Just to keep all the cars looking similar. As you know, When one guy sees a shiny new car with different patterns or lights, they all want them, and municipal budgets don't always allow. I will also say, that I have forced changes here or there on departments that have set new precedent, But any professional up fitter will tell you the patterns make the build, and some have their own unique signatures to them. Just my 2 cents
 

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