Saginaw, MI - PD Shot Milton Hall over 30 times...

[mjMIff]

Justice Department joins Michigan shooting probe - CNN.com


Made National News after a local sold the video to CNN... Ohhh boy...


I seen some math on another site, 6 officers @ 10 ea = 60, 6 officers @ 5ea = 30....

 

[mcpd2025]

Who is that "expert" that couldn't understand why they needed 46 shots to neutralize a single suspect? That is spoken like someone who has never buckled up a gun belt and patrolled a beat.


Within 30 seconds of him opening his mouth it became obvious to me that he isn't well versed in deadly force training. An edged weapon is considered lethal up to 31 feet away. Studies show that a man can close a 31 foot gap and cause serious physical injury before an officer can react by drawing his weapon and getting on target. The poor quality video appears to show this man well within that 31 foot reactionary gap and therefore deadly force would have been authorized well before shots are fired. The video doesn't show the suspects actions throughout and I can't tell what he did to cause the officers to respond by shooting. That being said, 6 or 7 officers on scene and shooting can quickly reach 46 (I think thats what they said) rounds being shot. The media likes to glamorize things like this, but at the end of the day if I am legally allowed to shoot you once, I can theoritically shoot you a hundred times if I get those shots off before you hit the ground. If the first bullet is justified, each and every additional bullet is justified up until the point in time the threat is neutralized. That could mean the guy drops the knife or that could mean that his injuries are obviously not consistent with life. Either way, if he is still standing, approaching me or threatening me... I can keep shooting. Now, when you have 6 or 7 officers trying to get rounds on target quickly to stop a threat, 7 officers can each shoot 7 rounds within a second or two. You will most likely not be dead within 2 seconds, and its quite possible you can still be standing and approaching. Those 49 bullets would be legally justified in that case, no matter how much the media sensationalizes it, no matter how much the guys family complains about it, no matter how much Jesse Jackson preaches about it.


I don't know anything about this particular case though. I hope the officers actions are deemed justified and I hope that the officers are able to deal with the emotional aftermath of this event. As much as some people (general public AND members of this forum) like to paint police officers as power hungry murderers, I can tell you that 99.99% of officers pray that they are never involved in a situation like this. For the unfortunate few that are involved, the emotional toll it takes on you is incredible. Then to have to be dragged through the mud by the press and not be allowed to give your side of the story makes it that much worse. Then, when everything is brought to light in the investigation or trial, the news never goes back and reports that the officers were justified.


This isn't meant to be a judgement about the OP's comments either, FYI.

 

[jph2]

Although 6 weeks seems long for the community to get some answers, it does take time to do a thorough investigation. I'll bet no one is dragging their feet on this since I'm pretty sure the City of Saginaw is paying 6 or more officers to be off patrol until a determination on justifiability is made. That's a considerable chunk out of a particular patrol shift.


It's unfortunate CNN chopped the video to just show the subject apparently walking away from the group of officers who then open fire. The article notes, however, another officer had just moved to the left out of camera view. The video does not show any of the actions prior to the officers shooting. We also don't have useful audio so we don't know what anyone was saying.


CNN's consultant did point out a man armed with a knife could close the gap very quickly and that the shooting could well be ruled justified. He also deflected the old "shoot for the leg" malarky so I thought he was better than most "experts" the media seem to dredge up.


What frosts me in the WJRT story is Saginaw councilman Norman Braddock:

I'm not satisfied with the State Attorney General investigation, I won't settle for anything, except a federal investigation, so I'm trying to be patient...

Dude, you're not being patient if you're already calling for a Federal investigation and you haven't even seen the Attorney General or State Police reports yet. I see the race card coming...

 

[mjMIff]

All the editing and graphic overlays I don't think helps, you can see the edited original airing here: Man killed by cops, shot 30+ times – Anderson Cooper 360 - CNN.com Blogs


I say it was edited because they took out the part at the end where the reporter said "He was unarmed, except with a knife"....


People seem to be angry that he appeared to be backing up, but what the video doesn't seem to show is where the officer who was to the left of the other officers went, I believe Hall might had been walking towards him. At about 57 seconds into it, they put a picture of Hall over the video, thus you conveniently can't see where the officer went, although later in the video you can see what appears to be officer(s) to the left of the tree..

 

[C2Installs]

I do not know the facts. I did not watch the video.


Having said that...


What bothers me here is not what the media is saying. It's what they are more or less implying...


"White cops execute harmless, innocent, black man with zero justification, for no reason, out-of-blue, in a coordinated conspiracy planned and carried out in moments. More of the same from the man - racism, corruption, lack of accountability. Stay tuned."


Nope, it can't be a matter of circumstance, perceptions, training, and environment combining to create a tragedy (assuming it is a bad shoot). And we can't have a measured, "wait and see" response or a fair accounting, cause that won't sell ad space and generate ratings.


And if you're a cop, don't think it can't happen to you.


Cops screw up. It happens. But let me tell you something else...everyone lies to/about the cops. EVERYONE. I can't tell you the number of calls and complaints I deal with from moon-bats and foil-hat wearers, "good, concerned" citizens, and "good" Christians that are bizarre, one-sided, lacking in fact and perspective. Folks don't like cops, so they seem to be pre-disposed to think bad right from the start. It's endemic to our culture, and can't be changed. A bit of this is actually healthy and keeps things even keel. But we are waaaaay past that point now.


Again, no idea on this and just don't have it in me to get interested anymore. For me, it's more of the same.


Time to check that parachute...

 

[jph2]

I do not know the facts. I did not watch the video...

Again, no idea on this and just don't have it in me to get interested anymore. For me, it's more of the same.


Time to check that parachute...

What is the point of posting if you can't be bothered to find out what you're posting about? :duh:

 

[Station 3]

Well my glock 17 9mm carries 18 rounds of Federal HST 147 Grain +P so if i was there 18 rounds would of been from me! Shoot until the threat stops if it takes that many rounds then it took that many rounds no way around it.

 

[JIMBETHYNAME]

Seven cops and not one of them is armed with a tazer?

 

[chono]

Seven cops and not one of them is armed with a tazer?

I hope that was a joke...


You meet deadly force with deadly force...

 

[JohnMarcson]

I hope that was a joke...

You meet deadly force with deadly force...

Exactly. A taser is not an appropriate response to a knife. I have seen people fight through tasers. Brandish a deadly weapon to the police, get shot by all the officers that you are threatening..... I'm not sure why that is surprising to people. The number of rounds is always such a buzz item for people. 1 bullet is fatal. The fact that all officers fired until they felt the threat was neutralized causes the suspect to be hit multiple times. The proper authorities need to investigate the shooting. Shot counts etc are simply meant to play on people's emotions and are not even pertinent necessarily.

 

[mcpd2025]

Seven cops and not one of them is armed with a tazer?

There are times when a taser is appropriate use of force, but one someone is standing within that reactionary gap you cannot rely on non lethal weapons. Its a different situation if the guy is sitting down or reaching for a weapon. Tasers can fail to fire, can miss the target or the suspect can fight through a tase.


The amount of time it takes for a taser to be fired and to wait to see if the taser takes effect is way longer than these officers had in this case. Bottom line, if you don't want to get shot by the cops, don't do stupid shit. I understand the family says the guy was mentally disturbed, if that is the case they should have been taking better care of him.

 

[C2Installs]

What is the point of posting if you can't be bothered to find out what you're posting about? :duh:

I offered comments related to the discussion which expressed my frustration about the typical media shitstorm. Since police work is solidly in my lane, I have a valid perspective. I need not know the facts of this story...it is just like so many others. No one wants to wait and see; the cops are tried by media and opinion (and internet forums nation-wide).


Besides, this is ELB, and unless I missed the memo, *knowing* what you're posting about has never been a requirement.

 

[FireEMSPolice]

Pet peeve of mine..Its not taser or tazer..its TASER, an acronym!


TASER = Thomas A Swifts Electronic Rifle

 

[JohnMarcson]

Pet peeve of mine..Its not taser or tazer..its TASER, an acronym!

TASER = Thomas A Swifts Electronic Rifle

Thanks to you I too have inherited this pet peeve...


.....so now you need to take on one of mine......


when people say "PIN Number"....


Personal Identification Number....... so Personal Identification Number Number?

 

[Wigwam700]

Thanks to you I too have inherited this pet peeve...

.....so now you need to take on one of mine......


when people say "PIN Number"....


Personal Identification Number....... so Personal Identification Number Number?

When a stiff on the hospital radio asks for an Estimated ETA! :duh: :crazy:

 

[mcpd2025]

Since we are off topic... how about a VIN number? A vehicle idenfitication number number...

 

[JohnMarcson]

Since we are off topic... how about a VIN number? A vehicle identification number number...

Yep...


back semi-on topic with another pet peeve; people focusing on the number or caliber of bullets and/or type of weapons involved............ deadly force, when used by law enforcement is the same idea from .38 backup revolver to .308 SWAT rifle. The perp is a deadly threat, you respond with deadly force until the perp stops being a threat. But "officers use deadly force against man with knife" is a boring headline. "Officers shoot man without gun 30 times" gets people to pay attention.


This whole thread is one big blood pressure raiser...peeve after peeve :duh:

 

[RickLBZ]

People need to see the show I watched some time ago. I tried searching for it but haven't had much luck. Maybe someone on here has seen it and can post it. It shows a robot with a plastic knife at about 21 feet and an "officer" with a holstered firearm. He needs to draw and fire before the robot, moving at average human speed, gets to him. He does not and is "stabbed" by the robot.


Another point, who in there right mind would refuse to drop a knife when 1, let alone 6 officers and a dog, tell him to.

 

[Agent72]

It is pathetic that people who know nothing about law enforcment or tactics chime in and give their "professional" opinion on how things should have been done. As far as the Taser is concerned, the standard probe cartridge is for use up to 21 feet. At that maximum distance, the probes have a spread of almost 3 feet. It is extremely difficult to get an effective hit with both prongs on someone from that distance, let alone someoen who is moving. Secondly. In order for someone to get into position to even fire the Taser, you are asking every officer to come to within 7 yards (Maximum effective distance) of a suspect who has already stated he will not drop a knife and is willing to do harm to officers. Less-leathal requires LEATHAL coverage. In actuality, 5 yards is probably the most realistic. 15 feet!!!! Someone can cover that distance simply by lunging forward in less than a second. Unless you know anythign about edge weapons and their effectiveness and how the slightest slice from a knife in an effective area can cause death, keep your mouth shut.


Why cant people understand that someone people, like this guy, WANT TO DIE!! That is why they put themselves in these positions because they have already made their mind up that they are going to die and want to do it at the hand of others. If Officers were justified to shoot 1 round, they are justified to shoot as many as it takes to stop him. People need to place responsibility where it belongs. Blame the crazy guy with the knife!!!! HE put everyone in this situation.. not the police. Almost everything in police work is reactionary. We respond based upon something that someone else does.This is why society makes me sick.

 

[JohnMarcson]

If Officers were justified to shoot 1 round, they are justified to shoot as many as it takes to stop him.

Well put... my exact point about people sensationalizing number of shots.


People must expect them to fire, wait, reassess, fire, wait, reassess.... ? The danger of edged and blunt weapons is way under emphasized. People get murdered with bats, knives, pipes, boards, cars......hands...feet... but news is entertainment, and shootings are good entertainment. People like bullet counts. Cause, risk, response etc are boring variables.

 

[Agent72]

Many years ago there was a shooting in Miami Beach FL. One of my friends was one of the homicide investigators in charge of the shooting. The suspect had a small .22 handgun. He fired one round toward officers and was subsequently shot 102 times!!!!!!! 102!!!!!!!!!! He had holes in the bottom of his feet and everywhere else you can imagine. Guess what the result was?? JUSTIFIED!!!! Every single shot of the 102 rounds that hit the suspect were justified. I can only imagine what the result would had been if these media idiots and people who run their mouth were in charge of the grad jury instead of people who can think rationally and without emotion, focusing only on the facts that were present.


People dont understand the reactionary time it takes for the human brain to perceive a threat, act, then reevaluate. In the time it takes the human brain to do this, approximately 2.5 seconds, a good shooter can have fired well placed 8-10 rounds on a suspect before stopping to reevalute that the threat is over. This guy is lucky he was only shot 46 times and not 60!!

 

[mjMIff]

People need to see the show I watched some time ago. I tried searching for it but haven't had much luck. Maybe someone on here has seen it and can post it. It shows a robot with a plastic knife at about 21 feet and an "officer" with a holstered firearm. He needs to draw and fire before the robot, moving at average human speed, gets to him. He does not and is "stabbed" by the robot.

Another point, who in there right mind would refuse to drop a knife when 1, let alone 6 officers and a dog, tell him to.

Here are some good links..


21ft Rule -

.... and another real life "shot a bunch of times, lived" story.. Howard Morgan, Chicago Man Shot 28 Times By Chicago Cops, Sentenced To 40 Years In Prison


Keep shooting until THEY think they are dead...

 

[mjMIff]

It is pathetic that people who know nothing about law enforcment or tactics chime in and give their "professional" opinion on how things should have been done. As far as the Taser is concerned, the standard probe cartridge is for use up to 21 feet. At that maximum distance, the probes have a spread of almost 3 feet. It is extremely difficult to get an effective hit with both prongs on someone from that distance, let alone someoen who is moving. Secondly. In order for someone to get into position to even fire the Taser, you are asking every officer to come to within 7 yards (Maximum effective distance) of a suspect who has already stated he will not drop a knife and is willing to do harm to officers. Less-leathal requires LEATHAL coverage. In actuality, 5 yards is probably the most realistic. 15 feet!!!! Someone can cover that distance simply by lunging forward in less than a second. Unless you know anythign about edge weapons and their effectiveness and how the slightest slice from a knife in an effective area can cause death, keep your mouth shut.

Why cant people understand that someone people, like this guy, WANT TO DIE!! That is why they put themselves in these positions because they have already made their mind up that they are going to die and want to do it at the hand of others. If Officers were justified to shoot 1 round, they are justified to shoot as many as it takes to stop him. People need to place responsibility where it belongs. Blame the crazy guy with the knife!!!! HE put everyone in this situation.. not the police. Almost everything in police work is reactionary. We respond based upon something that someone else does.This is why society makes me sick.

Something else people are upset about is the LEOs didn't release the dog. I argued that dogs do not disarm and the risk of harm to the dog was too great (especially since he was asking for it)..


What is common policy of dogs in these specific situations, a knife, a good amount of LEOs on site and no direct threat to civilians?

 

[mcpd2025]

Something else people are upset about is the LEOs didn't release the dog. I argued that dogs do not disarm and the risk of harm to the dog was too great (especially since he was asking for it)..

What is common policy of dogs in these specific situations, a knife, a good amount of LEOs on site and no direct threat to civilians?

It ultimately depends upon the agency and training. I doubt too many agencies would release a dog in this situation. Dogs are great for searching buildings with an unknown threat, drug or explosive detection, tracking or unarmed subjects. In the case of an armed subject at close range, I wouldn't release a dog even if it was onscene. Thats just another factor for which the officers would have to have assess and react. The dog also doesn't have any way to defend itself against the lethal threat.


Its somewhat amusing, but the penalty for assaulting a police dog is more serious than the penalty for assaulting a police officer.

 

[FireEMSPolice]

Thanks to you I too have inherited this pet peeve...

.....so now you need to take on one of mine......


when people say "PIN Number"....


Personal Identification Number....... so Personal Identification Number Number?

How about when a dispatcher says, "Be advised..." and they advise you?...lol

 

[cbpdogboy]

A K-9 drug dog...

 

[Agent72]

Something else people are upset about is the LEOs didn't release the dog. I argued that dogs do not disarm and the risk of harm to the dog was too great (especially since he was asking for it)..

What is common policy of dogs in these specific situations, a knife, a good amount of LEOs on site and no direct threat to civilians?

I understand why they did not release the dog at the subject. The dog would more have likely been severely injured as it is trained to grab a hold and hang on. The subject would have more more than enough opportunity to stab the dog repeatedly. Also, if once the dog was released, what if the man attacked officers? The dog would be in the middle of the fray and more than likely would have been shot in the crossfire. The dog is a great tool and deterant in a lot of situations, but I would not order the release of the dog in this situation either. You do not sacrafice a dog. It is probably the same reason a Taser was not deployed.. it was not stategic to do so, as hard as that may be for some people to comprehend. Just like all tools, they have limits. You do not knowingly exceed the limits of the tool you are trying to use because you give up safety. The dog would be great if the man dropped the knife then took off running. The deployment of the dog would then be best utilized to subdue. Hope this answers some questions.

 

[RuralFireMedic]

This may sound a little "over simplified", but if you threaten six men armed with guns while you are holding a knife, you are going to get shot. It just sounds like common sense to me.

 

[J. Forbes]

Check this out:


Simply put - If deadly force is justified - it's not possible to kill em twice.


Last year, during the controversy over police officers' killing of Pedro Oregon Navarro, a police report said an officer had emptied his pistol at Oregon, reloaded and fired until it was empty again. In explaining the law to reporters, Holmes said, "An analogy that I use is that if it is OK to kill a guy dead, it is OK to kill him dead, dead, dead." John B Holmes former Harris County DA


See the whole article here: Holmes often a blunt instrument of the law / `Honest and ethical,' DA also can be salty 10/13/1999 | Archives | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle