Should volunteer firefighter pov light colors be recognized in driver training class?

NERT11

Member
Jul 3, 2012
196
Ontario, Canada
Just a general poll I suppose of a thought I had.


Does anyone else feel that volunteer firefighter lights, weather they be blue, or in my case green, should be addressed during driver training classes (drivers ed)? Even if they are just courtesy lights, I personally feel that awareness should be brought to the meaning and purpose of the lights. I think this would be a huge step up in general awareness right from the start.


I've also seen these signs in a few places to raise awareness


http://api.ning.com/files/jE01HKZxavSryIlmYYZU3EBAU2PP4nxEbYDuzSOwZbIM-WQVcRVK8wYxeW6n-63QXky081Ff8oL*AiBCxRfS4GgY5JB8-s7a/Newfirefightersign1.jpg?width=242&height=350
 

FSEP

Member
Nov 11, 2012
844
DE
NERT11 said:
Just a general poll I suppose of a thought I had.

Does anyone else feel that volunteer firefighter lights, weather they be blue, or in my case green, should be addressed during driver training classes (drivers ed)? Even if they are just courtesy lights, I personally feel that awareness should be brought to the meaning and purpose of the lights. I think this would be a huge step up in general awareness right from the start.


I've also seen these signs in a few places to raise awareness


http://api.ning.com/files/jE01HKZxavSryIlmYYZU3EBAU2PP4nxEbYDuzSOwZbIM-WQVcRVK8wYxeW6n-63QXky081Ff8oL*AiBCxRfS4GgY5JB8-s7a/Newfirefightersign1.jpg?width=242&height=350

Yes. Yes. Yes. :yes:


But that would make to much sense, so why would they do it :duh:
 

Eric1249

Member
Jul 12, 2010
2,277
Waukesha WI USA
In WI we are allowed red and clear lights just like fire trucks and ambos. As the years have gone on it seems people are just getting worse at not pulling over, etc. They are doing everything but paying atttention to the road. Even with lights and siren they still try to out run you or don't pull over.


Sometimes I wonder if there is anything that will improve it other then videos on trucks/ambos etc and jsut issuing tickets.
 

WS224

Member
Nov 28, 2010
1,049
West Tennessee
My driving test didn't ask about the color of lights on anything.
 

chief1562

Member
Mar 18, 2011
5,840
Slaterville/NY
WS224 said:
My driving test didn't ask about the color of lights on anything.

He didn't ask if it did. He asked if it should be made aware of.


Does anyone else feel that volunteer firefighter lights, weather they be blue, or in my case green, should be addressed during driver training classes (drivers ed)? Even if they are just courtesy lights, I personally feel that awareness should be brought to the meaning and purpose of the lights. I think this would be a huge step up in general awareness right from the start.


You just love to read into things don't you?
 

JPolston

Member
Mar 27, 2012
512
Indiana, USA
In class we went over them, but there was no section in the book nor questions on tests. I think each state should modify their books and tests to include it. Always have, always will. Then again, I wish people would think with common sense. C'mon now, red and blue lights just about always mean emergency vehicle. If they're illuminated, that means PULL THE HELL OVER. In my area I don't have too many issue. Even when responding from the city, 20 minutes from my coverage area, people will at least slow when they see my dash light. When responding to an accident last month people at intersection stayed where they were an allowed me to proceed. I was quite happy to see people who actually used their head.
 

squeeeg

Member
Jul 5, 2011
76
Michigan
Here is Michigan we also run the same color lights as the apparatus at the station so they are recognized. The only problem is people just don't see us as we are approaching. Unfortunately you can't teach people to watch and be aware of their surroundings. But that is a different topic.


In areas where vff's get different color lights the other areas people should absolutely be aware of what the color means. Every color used in an area should be known by the people that drive in that area. Otherwise you end up driving a bug zapper. The cars just can't help but go towards the light.
 

WS224

Member
Nov 28, 2010
1,049
West Tennessee
chief1565 said:
He didn't ask if it did. He asked if it should be made aware of.
Does anyone else feel that volunteer firefighter lights, weather they be blue, or in my case green, should be addressed during driver training classes (drivers ed)? Even if they are just courtesy lights, I personally feel that awareness should be brought to the meaning and purpose of the lights. I think this would be a huge step up in general awareness right from the start.


You just love to read into things don't you?

The point being if a State drivers test does not ask about the color of lights on police cars, fire engines, or ambulances, why would they ask one about volunteer firefighters?


Would it be a good idea....probably so, but in the absence of it being that way make it a local PR thing.
 

hitman38367

Member
May 23, 2010
881
West Tennessee, USA
Eric1249 said:
Even with lights and siren they still try to out run you or don't pull over.
This is when a cowcatcher on the front of your vehicle comes in handy. Just push em out of the way if they don't take the hint. lol!! I certainly wish it were legal to do so cause I would be the first one in line to get one installed on the front of my ride.
 

NJEMT

Member
May 22, 2010
377
Essex County, NJ
I know in the NJ drivers handbook it has a section to pull over for vehicles flashing blue lights. It says something along the lines of they are volunteer fire or ambulance personnel.
 

Jarred J.

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 21, 2010
11,580
Shelbyville, TN
i agree it should be included, but then again if its a state law it shouldnt be up to the sheriff to NOT let you run lights like here...


In my driver's ed my instructor told me all stop signs with white borders are optional..... :hahano:
 

theroofable

Member
May 23, 2010
1,379
New Jersey
NERT11 said:
Just a general poll I suppose of a thought I had.

Does anyone else feel that volunteer firefighter lights, weather they be blue, or in my case green, should be addressed during driver training classes (drivers ed)? Even if they are just courtesy lights, I personally feel that awareness should be brought to the meaning and purpose of the lights. I think this would be a huge step up in general awareness right from the start.


I've also seen these signs in a few places to raise awareness


http://api.ning.com/files/jE01HKZxavSryIlmYYZU3EBAU2PP4nxEbYDuzSOwZbIM-WQVcRVK8wYxeW6n-63QXky081Ff8oL*AiBCxRfS4GgY5JB8-s7a/Newfirefightersign1.jpg?width=242&height=350
Thats an awesome sign, I wish we could get some for around our station. Where did those come from? Heres what the NJ manual says:


Police cars, fire trucks, ambulances or other emergency vehicles have sirens and red lights. Private vehicles operated by volunteer fire and rescue squad members (with emergency vehicle identification) responding to an emergency call use blue lights.






New Jersey law requires all motorists to yield to emergency vehicles when they sound sirens and/or flashing red and/or blue emergency lights. A motorist should steer to the extreme right of the roadway, stop and wait for the vehicle to pass.
 

JazzDad

Member
Aug 5, 2011
5,165
USA
If it's not currently in your state statutes for driver's training, contact your state representative and ask them to introduce legislation.
 

bwoodruff

Member
Aug 8, 2011
499
Upstate NY
Irsh42 said:
That's a start, but mixing that "section" with volunteer firefighter pov's, snowplows and wreckers... I don't like at all. :nono:

I'm also not a huge fan of telling folks they don't have to yield. "You should yield the right of way" would be more appropriate wording. Or how about "if it were your house on fire, wouldn't you want the firefighters to be able to get there as quickly and safely as possible? Pull over." By explicitly stating that you don't have to pull over, you are giving people an easy out.
 

MESDA6

Member
Jun 2, 2010
920
Central IL and PHX
I don't see the need for too detailed of an explanation. It's simple, if you see flashing lights with or without a siren behind you other than amber - pull over to the right and yield the right of way. 99.9% of the time you will have done the right thing.


Given the issue with LE impostors, they also need to teach the difference between yielding the right of way and being pulled over, and what to do if the vehicle that pulls you over isn't marked.
 

picone239

Member
Jul 22, 2010
274
Paramus, NJ
I don't think there's a need for detailing who uses what color. Either way, I don't think it matters. I've determined there are three types of driver's: those who will gladly pull over (even if they have no idea what the color means), those who don't check their mirrors and just keep going, and those who pass the fire engine on the right and flip us off because we don't go as fast as their fancy car.
 

HILO

Member
May 20, 2010
2,781
Grand Prairie Texas
The whole courtesy light thing is silly. That being said, in states with courtesy lights (or amber lights as they are called in Texas) where no transportation code allows for violating traffic control devices, then nothing needs to be mentioned in the drivers book.
 

NERT11

Member
Jul 3, 2012
196
Ontario, Canada
HILO said:
The whole courtesy light thing is silly. That being said, in states with courtesy lights (or amber lights as they are called in Texas) where no transportation code allows for violating traffic control devices, then nothing needs to be mentioned in the drivers book.

You are not alone in the crowd that thinks "courtesy" lights are silly. Amber lights here are generally construction, service or maintenance vehicles. Although with my green lights, I cannot violate any traffic laws, it is most effective at intersections. If I approach a red light and am turning right, vehicles that may have the green light will yield so I can make the corner. Another instance is approaching a green traffic light, or awaiting a green traffic light turning left. Oncoming vehicles will generally yield right of way so that I can make the turn first. I can make up to a minute and a half, sometimes two minutes response time to the fire station using lights as opposed to not. Some agree, some don't, but when the elderly lady is watching, waiting for somebody to help her husband in cardiac arrest, or in her front yard, watching her house get more and more involved with every second, They'll take every second they can get. A minute can make the difference between life or death, or getting a handle on a fire before it flashes.


Like I said... Some agree, some don't
 

CPDG23

Member
Oct 17, 2011
835
Ohio
I am all for standardizing volunteer fire and EMS lighting....


Red and white with sirens.


Then we won't need to teach people about different colors and how to react.


Keep It Simple Stupid ;)
 

MESDA6

Member
Jun 2, 2010
920
Central IL and PHX
Just a thought, but there is nothing prohibiting any agency from doing a community outreach campaign either about courtesy lights, or pulling over for emergency vehicles. Many community newspapers would he thrilled to do an article or two or print a PSA on a regular basis. It's worth bringing up to your PIO or Chief.


While courtesy lights aren't ideal, it's what we have to work with here. Fortunately, many in our community know that no one else is coming except the volunteers, so most people pull over once they see you.
 

GVFD82X12

Member
Mar 31, 2011
85
Massachusetts USA
YES!!!


I remember when I was out practicing on the road (in the next town over), I had a vehicle come upon me with a light in the window, no siren, just the LED dash.


I pulled over and came to a stop, and the instructor pretty much bitched at me for "obstructing traffic" :duh:
 

vc859

Member
Oct 31, 2010
169
USA/ New York
Did you stop safely?


The only thing I dislike more than people who don't pull over for blue or green lights is people who pull over by doing any or all of the following:


1. Speeding up (thinking they can "outrun" the volunteer car and get so far ahead they won't need to pullover)


2. Stop in the middle of the road/intersection (usually blocking the side street or driveway I need to turn into)


3. Pull over and drive at traffic speed in the shoulder (preventing me from actually getting around them)


4. Pull over for a half second and then pull back in front when I don't pass them quickly enough for their taste


5. Stop half in the road on a blind curve and then get annoyed when I don't swing into the oncoming lane of traffic to get around them
 

squeeeg

Member
Jul 5, 2011
76
Michigan
vc859 said:
Did you stop safely?

The only thing I dislike more than people who don't pull over for blue or green lights is people who pull over by doing any or all of the following:


1. Speeding up (thinking they can "outrun" the volunteer car and get so far ahead they won't need to pullover)


2. Stop in the middle of the road/intersection (usually blocking the side street or driveway I need to turn into)


3. Pull over and drive at traffic speed in the shoulder (preventing me from actually getting around them)


4. Pull over for a half second and then pull back in front when I don't pass them quickly enough for their taste


5. Stop half in the road on a blind curve and then get annoyed when I don't swing into the oncoming lane of traffic to get around them

1,3 and 5 happened last night, lucky for me I wasn't driving. I love Blue haired old ladies that cant see over the steering wheel, they make me smile
 

charliefox

Member
May 28, 2010
81
Burlington WA
ABSOLUTELY! In WA green lights are courtesy only and are being used less and less by departments because no one knows what they mean. As I've said before, the laws about "courtesy lights" should be that, if it is safe to do so, motorists should yeild the right-of-way - the emergency thier responding to may be at YOUR house.
 

todaresq

Member
Jul 7, 2012
23
Binghamton, NY
Definitely... here is an example of someone not pulling over for me when responding to a call with the FD because she did not know what a blue light on a POV was. NY where we were, an PA where she lives and was head toward both use blue on POVs. It appears as though she thought I was a police impersonator, since she pulled in to the first public place she came to... miles after I first got behind her. I didn't turn off the lights for two reasons... she may have pulled over at some point... and I think turning it off without having have been cancelled would have been more "suspicious."

 

FireEMSPolice

Member
May 21, 2010
3,429
Ohio
todaresq said:
Definitely... here is an example of someone not pulling over for me when responding to a call with the FD because she did not know what a blue light on a POV was. NY where we were, an PA where she lives and was head toward both use blue on POVs. It appears as though she thought I was a police impersonator, since she pulled in to the first public place she came to... miles after I first got behind her. I didn't turn off the lights for two reasons... she may have pulled over at some point... and I think turning it off without having have been cancelled would have been more "suspicious."



Arent your blue lights courtesy lights and she wasnt required to yield?


I guess I think we should have standardized colors across the country so there is no difference from state to state and get rid of this "courtesy light" nonsense.
 

todaresq

Member
Jul 7, 2012
23
Binghamton, NY
FireEMSPolice said:
Arent your blue lights courtesy lights and she wasnt required to yield?

Correct... it is a courtesy light right now, but I believe if this driver knew what a blue light on a POV was, she would have let me pass. Toward the start... you can see the cars in front of her sped up past the speed limit, leaving her way behind. She stayed the speed limit, or slower, the whole way until she pulled into the gas station. Less than a few hundred yards beyond that is the fire station I was going to. She passed by the fire station as I was parking... meaning she didn't need to go to the gas station... she was just pulling in to get to a public place.
 

MJDNRP-6885

Member
Jul 25, 2010
358
Germantown Hills, IL
todaresq said:
Definitely... here is an example of someone not pulling over for me when responding to a call with the FD because she did not know what a blue light on a POV was. NY where we were, an PA where she lives and was head toward both use blue on POVs. It appears as though she thought I was a police impersonator, since she pulled in to the first public place she came to... miles after I first got behind her. I didn't turn off the lights for two reasons... she may have pulled over at some point... and I think turning it off without having have been cancelled would have been more "suspicious."



So you complain about her not yielding to your courtesy light, but then at the end of the video, when she is stopping for a stop sign, you pull around her and drive through the intersection? :duh:


Kettle meet Pot.
 

todaresq

Member
Jul 7, 2012
23
Binghamton, NY
MJDNRP-6885 said:
So you complain about her not yielding to your courtesy light, but then at the end of the video, when she is stopping for a stop sign, you pull around her and drive through the intersection? :duh:

Kettle meet Pot.

The stop sign, which I did stop for, was about 15 feet past where the video stopped. She was turning into the parking lot of the mini-mart (hence the blinker and her moving to the right at that point)... not at the y-intersection.
 

Quickstep80

Member
May 30, 2012
149
Europe
What's concerning me more - it looks like you were holding the camera (or phone?) in your hand while driving.


Even when driving for no emergency reason, I'd strongly recommend to keep the hands on the wheel and focus on your driving instead of using a camera. If you want a video, have a dashcam installed that does not need your attention or operation while driving.


Yes, I second every effort that (volunteer) responders can identify themselves and get their right of way. But I also demand that they are aware of their responsibility behind the steering wheel. Holding a recording device while driving is not what I call a safe way of moving a vehicle, especially during emergency response.
 

todaresq

Member
Jul 7, 2012
23
Binghamton, NY
Quickstep80 said:
What's concerning me more - it looks like you were holding the camera (or phone?) in your hand while driving.
Even when driving for no emergency reason, I'd strongly recommend to keep the hands on the wheel and focus on your driving instead of using a camera. If you want a video, have a dashcam installed that does not need your attention or operation while driving.


Yes, I second every effort that (volunteer) responders can identify themselves and get their right of way. But I also demand that they are aware of their responsibility behind the steering wheel. Holding a recording device while driving is not what I call a safe way of moving a vehicle, especially during emergency response.

Your "demand" has already been met :D ... as was in the video description, I normally have my GoPro on when responding, but used the iPhone this time since the battery was dead in the GoPro. As far as holding it... had it resting against the GPS mount (the suction cup near the center), but did have to support it at times with my hand since it was not actually mounted.


As seen here...


photopxh.jpg
 

HILO

Member
May 20, 2010
2,781
Grand Prairie Texas
She refused to pull over, drove the speed limit and pulled into a public place while an unmarked vehicle with a flashing light was behind her? I taught my wife, mother, and pretty much everyone I know, to do just that when an unmarked vehicle is behind them with a flashing light.
 

todaresq

Member
Jul 7, 2012
23
Binghamton, NY
HILO said:
She refused to pull over, drove the speed limit and pulled into a public place while an unmarked vehicle with a flashing light was behind her? I taught my wife, mother, and pretty much everyone I know, to do just that when an unmarked vehicle is behind them with a flashing light.

Exactly... she did the safe thing for herself. However, that goes back to the point of this thread. If drivers were more educated on volunteer firefighter POV light colors... she may have known that a blue light is not police, and in order for me to pass her, she would need to move to the right and stop... or at least move to the right and slow down. If she moved to the right, slowed down, and I stayed behind her... then I would hope she would continue to a public place while calling 911. Since volunteers in NY can not pass others without being granted right of way/courtesy (working to change the law), if people are oblivious or malicious, it makes response times worse and may harm public safety. In Texas, since you are allowed to have lights and sirens, you would have been able to pass by with due regard once safe to do so, even if she did not move out of your way.
 

HILO

Member
May 20, 2010
2,781
Grand Prairie Texas
Fair enough, the awareness point. And yes, in Texas, a VFF is allowed full lights and siren, as their POV is considered an emergency vehicle, thus granting them the ability to demand ROW, and safely disregard traffic control devices. Now in your state being a courtesy light state, as I understand it, does nyot allow for disregard of traffic control devices (speed limit signs, red lights, ect.) and calls for doing the speed limit, correct? If so, and by your description, the motorist was doing the speed limit, what is the problem?


I think courtesy lights are silly. Either allow lights and siren for ROW and EV status, or have none. And in NY, with the Jews having their own Ambulance as well as every other POV equipped with red lights and sirens, in NYC, why not let VFD's who really need them, have red lights and ROW/EV status?
 

todaresq

Member
Jul 7, 2012
23
Binghamton, NY
HILO said:
Fair enough, the awareness point. And yes, in Texas, a VFF is allowed full lights and siren, as their POV is considered an emergency vehicle, thus granting them the ability to demand ROW, and safely disregard traffic control devices. Now in your state being a courtesy light state, as I understand it, does nyot allow for disregard of traffic control devices (speed limit signs, red lights, ect.) and calls for doing the speed limit, correct? If so, and by your description, the motorist was doing the speed limit, what is the problem?

I think courtesy lights are silly. Either allow lights and siren for ROW and EV status, or have none.... why not let VFD's who really need them, have red lights and ROW/EV status?


The problem was it was the speed limit, or slower... as in the video description on yt, "she drove under the speed limit the majority of the time," about 5 - 10 MPH under. If she was at the speed limit, or higher the whole time... I would have less of a complaint. You are correct... all V&T laws are to be followed.


I do agree that courtesy lights are not enough, but do help a lot of the time. The law in all states should allow sirens on VFD and EMS POVs and be granted ROW. 26 states allow lights and sirens... 24 states are courtesy lights or no lights. Uniformity in colors may be a bit harder to nationalize though.
 

bwoodruff

Member
Aug 8, 2011
499
Upstate NY
I've found people are more likely to pull over for a full sized roof mounted lightbar than a simple dash light. I don't think it is about the amount of light, it is about the appearance.
 

Forum Statistics

Threads
53,970
Messages
449,819
Members
19,104
Latest member
airflores

About Us

  • Since 1997, eLightbars has been the premier venue for all things emergency warning equipment. Discussions, classified listings, pictures, videos, chat, & more! Our staff members strive to keep the forums organized and clutter-free. All of our offerings are free-of-charge with all costs offset by banner advertising. Premium offerings are available to improve your experience.

User Menu

Secure Browsing & Transactions

eLightbars.org uses SSL to secure all traffic between our server and your browsing device. All browsing and transactions within are secured by an SSL Certificate with high-strength encryption.