Someone Explain Pagers To Me.

EMT-BLS

New Member
Oct 28, 2011
2,640
Waterbury, CT
I've always operated in areas that the only form of communication between dispatch and responders was radios, so this whole pager thing has me really confused. I tried to get it explained to me in chat, but I walked away even more confused. How does it work, start to finish, being dispatched by pager? Or is it just an alert to turn your radio on?
 

Steve0625

Member
Jun 23, 2010
1,213
Northville NY
EMT-BLS said:
I've always operated in areas that the only form of communication between dispatch and responders was radios, so this whole pager thing has me really confused. I tried to get it explained to me in chat, but I walked away even more confused. How does it work, start to finish, being dispatched by pager? Or is it just an alert to turn your radio on?

What kind of pager? Tone and voice like a Minitor V? Or do you mean a fully digital pager?


Kind of hard to answer your question without this info.
 

carguy411

Member
Oct 25, 2011
372
ny
call goes to 911


911 sends to dipatch


dispatch sends tone out to pagers explains job,apparatus needed and loc


once pagers go off we respond to fire house and go to work


really not complicated.


we dont have our own radios just pull them off riggs when we get on them
 

EMT-BLS

New Member
Oct 28, 2011
2,640
Waterbury, CT
Steve0625 said:
What kind of pager? Tone and voice like a Minitor V? Or do you mean a fully digital pager?

Kind of hard to answer your question without this info.

Sorry, let me clarify. I'm not so much interested in the way pagers function, as far as programming, alerts, and tones. I mean to ask, how would a call go down? How can dispatch be sure that the FireFighter heard the call and is responding? Do you have to call in to dispatch?
 

Steve0625

Member
Jun 23, 2010
1,213
Northville NY
EMT-BLS said:
Sorry, let me clarify. I'm not so much interested in the way pagers function, as far as programming, alerts, and tones. I mean to ask, how would a call go down? How can dispatch be sure that the FireFighter heard the call and is responding? Do you have to call in to dispatch?
Since you didn't answer my question, let me explain here.


Tone and voice requires a tone encoder on the base radio. Dispatcher activates the tones for a specific agency (or more) and then follows with a voice message. How it goes from there depends on local procedures. Usually, if the agency doesn't answer up in a couple of minutes, they dispatch again. Whether or not your department knows if you are responding to the page depends on department procedures. Some ask for some kind of contact from each responder, voice radio, phone, etc. Others don't and whoever shows up handles the call.


Digital paging is totally different technology, but the results are the same. Local protocol and department procedures dictate how things are handled after the initial dispatch.


Basically, whatever department you join will fill you in on the details. From a distance, we can only offer generalities.
 

eng18ine

Member
Jul 27, 2012
427
stony point, new york
some counties have seperate places for dispatch and 911. in rockland new york, a 911 call goes to 44 control which is also the counties fire dispatch. call goes to 911(44 control) and they press a button which sends tones to that departments pagers. as officers start to respond, they announce over the air, that they are responding. this is how a call would go out from control to a department.


*tones*


control:44 control to department 18, signal 10 automatic alarm, at 12 main street.


(repeat)control: 44 control to department 18, signal 10 automatic alarm, at 12 main street. filors, and washburns on the cross. caller states smoke from burnt food.


department 18: 18-1 in service


18-4, 18-1000 in service.


18-6, 18-1500 in service


officer in charge: 18-1 on scene establishing command


as the call winds to an end


officer in charge: 18-1 to 44 control


control: 44 control...


officer in charge: signal 11 (situation under control)


control: recieved


as trucks are leaving


officer in charge: 18-1 to 44 control


control: 44 control


officer in charge: all units on a 14 (returning to quarters)


then as every truck is back in the firehouse, the main firehouse will call 44 control over the radio


18-100(main firehouse): 18-100 to 44 control


control: 44 control....


18-100: we have signals 14 and 15 on a code 556(code explains the outcome/nature of the call)


control: your 14 and 15 is at 1100 hours, time out is 1000 hours and your on scene time is 1010 hours.


18-100: this is kef 476(radio call sign) department 18 clear.


and thats rockland counties average radio communication.


hope this helped
 

EMT-BLS

New Member
Oct 28, 2011
2,640
Waterbury, CT
Steve0625 said:
Since you didn't answer my question, let me explain here.

Tone and voice requires a tone encoder on the base radio. Dispatcher activates the tones for a specific agency (or more) and then follows with a voice message. How it goes from there depends on local procedures. Usually, if the agency doesn't answer up in a couple of minutes, they dispatch again. Whether or not your department knows if you are responding to the page depends on department procedures. Some ask for some kind of contact from each responder, voice radio, phone, etc. Others don't and whoever shows up handles the call.


Digital paging is totally different technology, but the results are the same. Local protocol and department procedures dictate how things are handled after the initial dispatch.


Basically, whatever department you join will fill you in on the details. From a distance, we can only offer generalities.

Understood. I can't really get into the details, simply because I don't have them. I have never worked for a department that used pagers, and don't plan on in the near future. I just wanted to learn how the calls are dispatched. So my follow-up question is, why would a department choose to use pagers? Wouldn't radios be better for responders and dispatchers alike?
 

Steve0625

Member
Jun 23, 2010
1,213
Northville NY
Paging is radio. Pagers are smaller and easier to carry. Pagers are designed to be silenced between alerts.


Tone and voice paging in the fire and ems services is usually done on a primary radio channel.
 

EMT-BLS

New Member
Oct 28, 2011
2,640
Waterbury, CT
Steve0625 said:
Paging is radio. Pagers are smaller and easier to carry. Pagers are designed to be silenced between alerts.

Tone and voice paging in the fire and ems services is usually done on a primary radio channel.

Even with being able to use, for example, a EX500, on a closed MDC group? It's the same thing: Tiny, muted until a alert opens the radio, dispatch tells you where to go, and then you can tell them "I'm going" or "Not in Service". Wouldn't that streamline operations?
 

EMT-BLS

New Member
Oct 28, 2011
2,640
Waterbury, CT
eng18ine said:
some counties have seperate places for dispatch and 911. in rockland new york, a 911 call goes to 44 control which is also the counties fire dispatch. call goes to 911(44 control) and they press a button which sends tones to that departments pagers. as officers start to respond, they announce over the air, that they are responding. this is how a call would go out from control to a department.

-snip-


hope this helped

How do the officers announce that they are responding over the air? Doesn't that mean that they're carrying radios as well?
 

Steve0625

Member
Jun 23, 2010
1,213
Northville NY
Too much radio traffic on dispatch channel for each responder to do that. Remember that some departments might have dozens of responders for each incident.
 

eng18ine

Member
Jul 27, 2012
427
stony point, new york
EMT-BLS said:
How do the officers announce that they are responding over the air? Doesn't that mean that they're carrying radios as well?

in most departments the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd officers are the chiefs. they all have their own department vehicles, with lowband radios. they dont call in service until they are in their vehicle.
 

Steve0625

Member
Jun 23, 2010
1,213
Northville NY
Follow up.


Many departments use portables interchangeably with pagers. Mine does. I rarely carry the pager but always have a portable with me for on scene use.
 

EMT-BLS

New Member
Oct 28, 2011
2,640
Waterbury, CT
Steve0625 said:
Too much radio traffic on dispatch channel for each responder to do that. Remember that some departments might have dozens of responders for each incident.

But the alternative would be just hoping you have enough responders, instead of knowing whether you have a full rig, or just two guys. I'd even go as far as ask if it were possible to set up a second channel for responders to talk on, while dispatch can continue to put out the new info.
 

Jarred J.

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 21, 2010
11,580
Shelbyville, TN
EMT-BLS said:
I've always operated in areas that the only form of communication between dispatch and responders was radios, so this whole pager thing has me really confused. I tried to get it explained to me in chat, but I walked away even more confused. How does it work, start to finish, being dispatched by pager? Or is it just an alert to turn your radio on?

I think your over thinking waht a pager is.


dispatch tones a fire or whatever to 1 station.


station has x number of members with pagers.


there is one (or however many)radio in the fire truck.


now around here when a truck rolls they advise "we have engine 701 enroute x 2 or x 4" or however many is in the engine when it rolls


its not the dispatchers job to know how many people are on scene or on their way or are needed.


if the fireman gets there, some one establishes "IC"


if IC sees it needs more people it will ask for a repage, or ask for mutual aid from another dispatch.


dispatchers, dispatch they have no need for knowing accountability if the dispatch was received by "x" number of people. if someone doesnt answer the initial dispatch they will keep doing it till some one does or they go with another means of getting that info out. either by phone tree or sending an officer to the chiefs house, or setting off a town fire siren or whatever.
 

eng18ine

Member
Jul 27, 2012
427
stony point, new york
Steve0625 said:
Too much radio traffic on dispatch channel for each responder to do that. Remember that some departments might have dozens of responders for each incident.

its not as bad as you think. the only ones that announce they are responding are the 3 chiefs, and each truck and thats it. for our average automatic alarm, there are 5 units that call over the dispatch channel.


theres usually one chief, and 3 to 4 trucks.
 

eng18ine

Member
Jul 27, 2012
427
stony point, new york
EMT-BLS said:
But the alternative would be just hoping you have enough responders, instead of knowing whether you have a full rig, or just two guys. I'd even go as far as ask if it were possible to set up a second channel for responders to talk on, while dispatch can continue to put out the new info.

well in my county, we do. some departments here announce their manpower.


but if it is say a structure fire, or a bad brush fie call or something like that, we have different highband channels that we operate on.
 

Steve0625

Member
Jun 23, 2010
1,213
Northville NY
Something to keep in mind here is that there is no one single method of all this. It's done a bit differently all over the country. Much of it is evolved tradition, you know: The fire service is 200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress.


Some departments can afford pagers and portables and mobiles for everyone, some can't so they do it differently.


You can't come up with a one size fits all system here.
 

Steve0625

Member
Jun 23, 2010
1,213
Northville NY
eng18ine said:
well in my county, we do. some departments here announce their manpower.

but if it is say a structure fire, or a bad brush fie call or something like that, we have different highband channels that we operate on.

Where I used to live (and where I did my career as a 911 dispatcher) many departments had each unit include its manpower when they rolled. Something like this, "Pumper 282 enroute with four." Up here where I live now, they don't do that.


When we get what sounds like a hot call for the ambulance, I try to announce how much help I have when I roll the rig. Not everyone does it and it's not a department procedure. Should it be? Probably, but it's a small squad with a low call volume and there are more important things to be asked of our few volunteers.


And we have two work channels for fire, two for ems, and two more for fire and ems combined plus primary dispatch channels for fire and ems. Not bad for a county with a population less than 60,000.
 

eng18ine

Member
Jul 27, 2012
427
stony point, new york
Steve0625 said:
Where I used to live (and where I did my career as a 911 dispatcher) many departments had each unit include its manpower when they rolled. Something like this, "Pumper 282 enroute with four." Up here where I live now, they don't do that.

When we get what sounds like a hot call for the ambulance, I try to announce how much help I have when I roll the rig. Not everyone does it and it's not a department procedure. Should it be? Probably, but it's a small squad with a low call volume and there are more important things to be asked of our few volunteers.


And we have two work channels for fire, two for ems, and two more for fire and ems combined plus primary dispatch channels for fire and ems. Not bad for a county with a population less than 60,000.

mines the same way, except most ems rigs can only roll with a driver, emt, and "helper", plus a medic rig with 2 parametics meet them at the scene.
 

EMT-BLS

New Member
Oct 28, 2011
2,640
Waterbury, CT
Steve0625 said:
Something to keep in mind here is that there is no one single method of all this. It's done a bit differently all over the country. Much of it is evolved tradition, you know: The fire service is 200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress.

Some departments can afford pagers and portables and mobiles for everyone, some can't so they do it differently.


You can't come up with a one size fits all system here.

I'm not recommending that all FDs sell their pagers tomorrow and buy radios, I'm just wondering from a new FD's perspective: Why would you not want to know who's coming, who's going, where they're coming from...I'd imagine it'd smooth out responding or the need to call for mutual aid.
 

Steve0625

Member
Jun 23, 2010
1,213
Northville NY
EMT-BLS said:
I'm not recommending that all FDs sell their pagers tomorrow and buy radios, I'm just wondering from a new FD's perspective: Why would you not want to know who's coming, who's going, where they're coming from...I'd imagine it'd smooth out responding or the need to call for mutual aid.
Can't argue with your reasoning, but there are so many departments across the country, and every one of them is run by people with different ideas, opinions, knowledge and experiences that agreeing on a single procedure or method nationwide would be an impossibility. It's even tougher to get a procedure enacted at the county level for multiple departments.


I'm lucky as the squad I run with now issues portables to all EMT's, AEMT's, and some drivers. Everyone in the squad gets a pager as well. EMT's and AEMT's are also authorized mobiles in their vehicles but at their own expense. We stick with portables for squad purchase and issue because we have a dispatch repeater just a couple of miles from the station. For most calls and most situations, the portables are as good as mobiles.


The Chief would like each of us to call enroute to either the station or the scene but only about half do. I live just a block from the station so I stay off the radio if responding from home so that I can hear who else is responding. When I get to the station, I answer up on the base radio including a count of whoever is there already. If I am away from the house, I usually use the mobile in my truck to call enroute.
 

NFD-102

Member
Aug 1, 2011
1,083
NW Connecticut
Most of our volunteers who have pagers also have radios. Radio's are kind of bulky and a pain in the butt to carry around everywhere. So I pager that sits on your belt the size of a cell phone goes off with a loud beeping and vibration. They do the dispatch just like every other town does. The tone is what sets the pager off. Then the responders that are going have 2 minutes to let dispatch know that they are responding. Our county has the first 3 vehicles that sign on and the rest just respond to HQ for the apparatus. Pretty much everyone arrives within 5 minutes of each other.


After the pagers go off the dispatch channel remains open so that you hear people signing on. We have 4 different channels and a couple of different alerts on our Minitor V's. A is a loud alert with vibration, B is vibrate, C is the dispatch channel so you can listen to everyone all of the time instead of just listening for your own dept. And D is our scene channel. The pager is kind of like a scanner. Same type of features of listening rather then talking. Its great for all the slappers who want radios and you don't want to give them to them.


So we still use our radios and all of our other items, its just a smaller item that we can all carry on our belts that's not a bothersome to carry. I love the paging system. We have a new system now for our cell phones where we get text messages. I use a pretty cool app called "FireAlert2." It also works like a pager but isn't always dependable like a pager. The pager will always go off on the spot as long as you are within an 1.5 hours radius of the dispatch center. I have driven to both Massachusetts and New York and heard calls go off.
 

justavillain

Member
Mar 7, 2013
1,010
Grand Rapids
On the volly dept I'm on uses pagers and portables. But the portables are for senior firefighters who can fill officer billers, engineer/EO, interior ect and officers.


We have minitor 5's and when we get toned it's actually toned 2 times so we get the page then it's tripped again and the page is repeated due to the terrain over the county.


The reason I like the pager is because it is small and easy to keep on me. Usually my radio just sits in the ash tray of my truck out of the way.


Now on my career dept. We have a tone for each truck so not every station is hearing the others calls all day/night. When we get a fire we have a longer line of tones and told. But we also have an mdt on every truck so we have the dispatch info, history, cross streets, preplanned ect.


For a volly dept it works well with pagers because it gives you the address and call on it as long as you have stored voice to hear again. While my radio can alert on tones it takes an entire channel and with MABAS we need a lot of channels....
 

ful-vue

New Member
Aug 16, 2012
299
Pennsylvania
Also bear in mind the cost factor. Here, we use a mix of alpha text pagers and voice pagers on an analog channel to receive the dispatch calls. These are strictly one-way communications. The county two-way system is P-25 digital. Pagers are a couple of hundred dollars. Prices for portable radios on the county system run into the thousands. We simply can't afford to give every person a portable. It's hard enough to afford having them for the trucks and officers.


There are software systems available to allow folks to send a message that they are responding via smart phone apps. Only a few companies in our area have done that so far, and that doesn't go to County - just the company. This is relatively new, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it widely adopted, maybe eventually by the County.


The simple result is: County waits for a set period of time, and if they don't hear a unit responding, the page us out again, along with the next nearest station.
 

Steve0625

Member
Jun 23, 2010
1,213
Northville NY
Just a small point about any cell phone based system, be it SMS text dispatch info or response acknowledgement via smart phone app or whatever. When a major incident hits, the entire cellular system is liable to be overloaded and nothing is going to get through. Relying on this for even a secondary dispatch system is hazardous at best. This is particularly true in smaller communities where there may be only one or two cell sites.


Even under normal conditions, firefighters and ems personnel are reporting irregular activity including time lags on SMS based info which can range from a few minutes to hours.


The great thing about both tone and voice dispatch and digital paging on a private system is that it is not reliant on the cellular network. The system I worked in for over 27 years has redundancy in their radio hardware plus backup dispatching systems in place throughout the county. Even the 911 center has two backup dispatch facilities. The only system not currently redundant (to my knowledge) is their proprietary digital paging system which is an adjunct to voice dispatching.


There was talk at one time of a parallel cellular network just for government and emergency services. That didn't go anywhere because of the huge cost of creating such a network.
 

Jarred J.

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 21, 2010
11,580
Shelbyville, TN
actualy texts are more likely to go through then voice calls on cell services during disasters due to its less bandwidth. this was taught in our ics course. 9as long as tower has power and connectionability)


another thing that was noted.


KY had a big ice storm a few years bak. they requested mutual aid from our state. people with out of state cell numbers could make phone calls were someone with a loal number couldnt. (on the same tower)


due to this fact all EMA's in the state of TN have a non TN cell phone number for such use.
 

MtnMan

Member
Dec 20, 2012
1,533
Eastern PA
As has been said, procedures vary. There's no universal standard... yet :eek:


My area, Lehigh County PA, uses a three tier system. Fire and EMS paging is a one-way channel that sends tones, dispatches, and recalls for stations or individual units. Once units are in service, they communicate on the north and south dispatch channels. Finally, once on scene, the IC will designate a fireground channel.
 

ful-vue

New Member
Aug 16, 2012
299
Pennsylvania
Jarred J. said:
actualy texts are more likely to go through then voice calls on cell services during disasters due to its less bandwidth. this was taught in our ics course. 9as long as tower has power and connectionability)

They do take a lot less bandwidth, but it's actually because SMS messages are traveling over the signalling paths used to control the cellular network rather than the regular voice/data paths. The telcos realized the capacity was sitting there unused much of the time and could be monetized. That's also why the messages are so short - they had to fit in the existing signalling format.
 
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Ben E.

Member
May 21, 2010
2,417
Iowa, USA
The county that we are building their new radio system uses alpha-numeric pagers. Dispatch gets the call info, sends out the info from their console. Paging transmitters take it and convert it to digital info and send it over the air. Pager receives the info, alerts, and displays the info on the screen. Something like "BFE FIRE - VEHICLE 10-70 (fire) I-380 N/B 26MM" or "BFE AMBULANCE 1234 MAIN ST, BFE. 28YOM SVR CHEST PAIN, CONSCIOUS BREATHING, PRIOR HEART HISTORY". Guys on call respond to station, tell dispatch over the radio they received the call, and are responding. All the radio traffic after they acknowledge the call is normal.


The county I worked full time LE in, everybody had voice pagers. Same deal with them, except the information is spoken over the air and heard on the pager, instead of coming in text form.
 

MESDA6

Member
Jun 2, 2010
920
Central IL and PHX
Our county is made up primarily of volunteer fire companies in the rural areas. Pagers are issued to personnel because radios on the county system are $ 2500.00 each (portables) and more for mobiles. Most of the volunteer houses here now use a system called I Am Responding to let their chiefs and drivers know who is on the way. Details on that system can be found at IamResponding.com - Know Immediately who is responding to your dispatch as soon as the pagers go off!


We also use this system for our storm spotters and EMA volunteers. It works well and we don't really have to keep tabs on who is in town, out of town etc like we used to.
 

FSEP

Member
Nov 11, 2012
844
DE
Well here, we use 3 different ways to alert firefighters to an alarm.


Siren: it wails 5 times. We want it to be more, but the city officials say its "annoying" because it might wake people up in the middle of the night or bug peoples "quite time. I mean god forbid. :weird:


Cellphone/SMS: when kentcenter (dispatch/911) pages us out, this SMS message is suppose follow.


"Dispatch: 42F


Alarm: structure fire (unknown)


Location: 1234 steet


Sub: super valley


X (cross street): you suck lane, wacker way"


Caller: Betty Lou call-a-lot"


If there's any additional information we may need, they'll put it in their too.


Pager: Kentcenter will push the approiate station botton on their callboard, which activates the tones. From there it goes something like this.


Station 42, you have an alarm - structure fire, confirmed - 123 street- subdivsion, supper valley - cross streets of you suck lane, wacker way - all responding units switch to Tac 4


Then if an officer doesn't notify kentcenter that we have a crew forming and or responding within 5 min they call then station, if no one picks up they do a second alarm and do a first alarm for a second station.


When a piece is ready to respond we say this to dispatch:


Kentcenter - 42-5 responding (include officers number) - crew of (XX)


Then when we get on scene, we tell this to to dispatch.


Kentcenter - 42-5 on scene (include officer number) - single story, single family dwelling - heavy fire and smoke showing from alpha bravo side - no obvious hazards - requesting mutual aid (if needed) - establishing command
 

Travelin Man

Member
Jul 9, 2010
295
Central Virginia
Many departments that rely on pagers have a set amount of time to have their rigs on the road (say 3-6 minutes). If the department hasn't responded in that amount of time, then they're re-activated and sometimes an additional company(ies) is placed on the call.


Can it seem like eternity for the dispatcher on the other end of the radio waiting to see if anyone actually heard your call or not? You better believe it.


In my area, it far more normal to only issue radios to chiefs and/or officers, as this really cuts down on the amount of unnecessary radio traffic.


In the county in which I volunteer, we have been using I Am Responding for many years, which is something that helps both the responders and dispatchers alike. It reduces the "is anyone responding?" factor. We're able to use our cell phones to make a 5-second automated phone call, and then it shows up on large monitors in both the dispatch center and the firehouses to show which members are responding to the call, and if they're going to the firehouse or the scene. This has reduced our response times, improved staffing, and gives us a better idea if we need to add additional companies to a call. If you're not familiar with the system, check it out at iamresponding.com.
 

chief1562

Member
Mar 18, 2011
5,840
Slaterville/NY
Maybe I can help just a bit.


Most departments in the area Vol. except Ithaca.


But they all use the same equiment.


We have pagers we get toned out as to what the call is. Also the are voice and record for playback.


We have in each vehicle status buttons (see pic at left) if after a few minutes and have not recieved from apparatus or heard from radio retone.


Status 1 call received, 2 responding, 3 on scene. and can either punch inservice or will call in. This is for the times for paper work.


The chiefs are supposed to be the only ones to tell dispatch they are responding keeps the dispatchers from trying to keep track of so many responding on air and traffic down. most departments don't follow this rule.


Most every department issued radios to members at least here did. P25 here


And every department has their own ops channel this is to keep the radio traffic to a min. for dispatch and the capabilty to go to the another channel in mutual aid. Also they have the capability to go on cordination to talk to the Leos if needed.


Hope this tells you something of what you wanted to know.


If you would like to see how tompkins co. is set up go to radioreference and lookup tompkins co P25.

1501 cab compartment.jpg
 
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Bigassfireman

Member
May 23, 2010
823
U. S. of A. Ohio
I don't think it was mentioned before, but, another advantage of a pager over a radio would be battery life. I can only run my portable for maybe 12 hours if its a newer battery vs up to several days for my pager. All of our ems have portables. They mark en route to station or scene and if no one answers in a few minutes, dispatch knows to start M.A. For fire calls, if you only have two guys on the truck, you better damn well know to ask for mutual aid. It shouldn't be up to dispatch to worry about proper manpower responding. The department who is responding should relay to dispatch if they need more.
 

chief1562

Member
Mar 18, 2011
5,840
Slaterville/NY
Also I should add that there is a mutual aid plan in place for every dept. If it's something major then dispatch knows who to tone out along with the host dept.
 

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