Speaker wiring on a 200w version of the PA300

iandln050293

Member
Apr 8, 2019
125
NY
Hello, I purchased a 12volts PA300 siren model 690010 200watt siren. The manual is a bit confusing to me, specifically the wiring for the speakers.

I have 2x 100watt Federal Signal AS124 siren speakers, 200watts in total, that I need to connect with the unit. After connecting the 2 speakers in parallel and in phase, do I connect the 2 speaker positives to the Orange (Low power) or the Brown (High power) wire?

thanks!

wa.png
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
The ones I have pulled from trucks essentially treated the 100w speakers as if it were a single 200w wiring wise
 
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JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
My answer was not fully correct, or at least didn't explain the problems with the 200w versions. The 200w versions have a comm and speaker + high and speaker + low. It is clear you never use both +high and +low together and always use comm. What is not clear is the indications for low or high.

I have seen these hooked up with two 100w speakers using the speaker high and comm. I don't fully understand their wording, and apparently neither does the ambulance manufacturer because speaker high and comm were used for two 100w speakers sometimes and other times speaker low and comm for two 100w speakers. It is confusing, because they seem to be talking about running two 200w speakers but I always took it as speaker high was for 200W total and speaker low was for 100w total. I looked at it as no matter how you achieve it, the total watts is what determines whether you use speaker high (200w) and comm or speaker low (100w) and comm.

PROPER WIRING: Damage to the unit will occur if speaker wires are improperly connected. NEVER CONNECT the brown SPEAKER HIGH POWER (200 W) wire and orange SPEAKER LOW POWER (100 W) wire together to the speaker(s). To install the power cable: 1. The unit is designed to operate with one 11-ohm impedance speaker or two 11-ohm impedances, low power (100 W) or high power (200 W) speakers connected in parallel and in phase. On Federal Signal speakers, connect the two speaker leads marked “1” to the SPEAKER COMMON control cable lead and the two speaker leads marked “2” to the SPEAKER HIGH POWER or SPEAKER LOW POWER control cable leads. See Figure 2.

Using 18-gauge wire, connect the speaker leads (100 W speakers to SPEAKER LOW POWER and 200 W speakers to SPEAKER HIGH POWER) as shown in the Control Cable Wiring Diagram, Figure 2.

pa300 200.PNG
Trying to break it down:
The unit is designed to operate with:
  • one 11-ohm impedance speaker or
  • two 11-ohm impedances
  • low power (100 W) or
  • high power (200 W) speakers
It seems to say it will handle one or two 11ohm speakers. It then labels 200 W speakers as high, and 100 W as low.

Now it is assuming we have two speakers, and still delineating between high and low:

Connect the two speaker leads marked “1” to the SPEAKER COMMON cable and the two speaker leads marked “2” to the SPEAKER HIGH POWER or SPEAKER LOW POWER control cable leads.

Using 18-gauge wire, connect the speaker leads (100 W speakers to SPEAKER LOW POWER and 200 W speakers to SPEAKER HIGH POWER)


That seems to be talking about two speaker scenarios, and always uses the plural "speakers".

But the siren descriptions states:
"This siren can provide either 100- or 200-Watt output".
Would two 200 W speakers not be 400 W?

I had always understood the info to mean total watts, not watts per speaker. The wording is not clear.
 
Last edited:

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
So..... which of these do they mean?

I think we all agree on how to hook up a single 100 watt speaker, comm and low:
lo 1 100w.png

But what about dual (2) 100w speakers, 200 watts total? Use Comm and High
like this? due to the total watts? This is what I have seen in many commercially built apparatus:
hi 2 100w.png


I have seen people (apparatus builders too) interrupt the instructions using comm and low for dual 100 watt speakers because each speaker is 100w, like this:

LO 2 100w.png


Or are they talking about these 200 speaker scenarios?

hi 2 200 watt.png
hi 1 200watt.png


The wording is so confusing. Does the total watts determine high or low lead or is it the watts per speaker? Who has two 200 W speakers hooked to a 200w siren?

Pretty much every other siren I have installed that is 200 watts uses either 3 or 4 wires. 100 Watts per output with a single common wire or a 4th wire (1 "comm" each) in dual tone. The pa300 is the only siren I have seem everything hooked to two wires, but one is marked low and one high. That made me think that one output is for 200w mode and the other for 100w mode.
 
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iandln050293

Member
Apr 8, 2019
125
NY
Hi John, we have the same thoughts and sentiments. Very confusing.

I sent an email to Federal and they said that 2x100watt speakers should go to the High output. But their email, like their manual, is awfully worded too. Jesus....
 
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JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
Hi John, we have the same thoughts and sentiments. Very confusing.

I sent an email to Federal and they said that 2x100watt speakers should go to the High output. But their email, like their manual, is awfully worded too. Jesus....

Thanks so much for getting an answer. What terrible wording.

Can't we just say "For 200 watt systems use the high output lead and comm. 100 watt systems connect to low output and and comm"? Just call them 100w and 200w outputs. The total watts is what matters on the siren obviously. Why do high and low exist? I assume we adapted a 100w siren to 200w and wanted to alter it as little as possible. Other sirens you just add the speaker in to the same outputs, or each speaker has an output.

I have seen major apparatus builders get confused by this too. REV group owns 49% of the ambulance market and they couldn't figure it out.

Here are other companies.... even Code 3 makes sense

Carson
carson.PNG

Code 3
code 3.PNG

Whelen single tone
whelen.PNG
Whelen dual tone
whelen dual.PNG
Even the Federal PA400 is "normal"
pa400.PNG
The PA300 just wasn't designed to be 200w and they adapted it in an odd way and then described the adapted config in the worst way possible. Thanks for bringing this up and providing an answer from Federal.
 
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iandln050293

Member
Apr 8, 2019
125
NY
You are right John. It seems to me that they have hired a 6yo to write up the manual.

With this, I’m starting to think that the 200watt versions of the pa300 aren’t really “true” 200watts. This makes me want to stick with just Whelen or Carson.
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
You are right John. It seems to me that they have hired a 6yo to write up the manual.

With this, I’m starting to think that the 200watt versions of the pa300 aren’t really “true” 200watts. This makes me want to stick with just Whelen or Carson.
Here is where things clicked for me.... Get ready for a wall of text built by years of frustration;

I started thinking about my crusade against the PA300 at my two old jobs (ambulance maintenance). I was "Capt. Marcson, Remover of all things PA300 and Installer of all Things Whelen" to the point it became a joke. For some reason the region I work(ed) in love(d) PA300s and many ambulances and fire apparatus had them as a 200w primary siren. Also, they were a PITA to replace. I would end up with a 100W version having been installed as a replacement prior to me working on it or a replacement being ordered and showing up as the 100w version. If you just order a PA300 it's 100w. The 200w version is a special order, not a "hop on Galls real quick" purchase.

I used to complain to a guy with the same job at a nearby town/county that ran PA300s and Qs. I do love the sound of a Q overtop a 100w PA300; but there were rouge units with a Q and a 200w PA300 or just a PA300. He serviced PD stuff as well and somehow the PA300s bled over there. At the PD "the watts were made up and the speakers didn't matter". I remember calling him after I worked on 2 "identical" ambulances with sequential build numbers with completely different wiring on the sirens (PA300s). He told me to get used to it, and that he just pulled a 100w PA 300 running dual 100w speakers that was only woking because it was hooked up wrong and one speaker was essentially not connected.

After researching my answers for this thread I starting piecing this cluster together more; opening old wounds for the sake of full closure. I got a little more info from this I person mentioned too. Our going theory is that most sirens are designed to be 200w or 100w. The 200w versions of sirens are made to adjust to accommodate the removal (or non-installation) of one of the 100w speakers and run as a single speaker 100w siren. The 100w versions of sirens are just that, a 100w siren. The PA300, and all other PA siren versions until PA400, were that kind of true 100w siren. To accommodate 200w in the PA300 the power was stepped up in an "add on" way and a second "double watt" output added, the original design left unaltered. You really have a 100w siren with a "booster pack" output. If it were truly updated you would just have a single set of outputs or two identical ones and the option to hook up one or two speakers (like every other 200w siren). The presence of a single "high" and "low" output that must "never be used together" is very telling. The 200w PA300 shouldn't be a thing. Even an aux amp option like the older Whelen 295HFS2 would have been better. Leave the PA300 100w and allow an add on amp for 200w applications.

So, now to my saga of fighting the "200w" PA300 in real life. When you are running 200w via dual 100w speakers and one of your speakers blows on most sirens it is not a big deal. You lose 100w, On a PA300 you lose a speaker now your lone speaker is running as a 100w speaker on the "high" output. The manual says not to run a 100w speaker on the high output. Guess what happens? It blows too, and/or sometimes the siren overheats and blows the fuse (if you are lucky). Amongst the ambulances that had PA300s I worked on, every one had at least one heat damage incident usually a glass fuse holder melting or discoloration appearing with a fuse blowing, and they were the only model sirens where they would 100% fail due to needing BOTH speakers replaced. With the Carsons and Whelens the crews would notice and report a speaker out. They noticed either by volume, LED indicator, or lack of dual tone, and the work order would say as much. With Carson I'd get "Siren is quiet" and with Whelen I'd get "one red light on the siren is out" or "It's single tone only". I'd bring them in to my main building and slide under and (once I wised up) do both speakers as a preventive maintenance while I was under there. Maybe 75% of the time it was visibly time to replace both speakers due to salt damage anyway, which was initially the policy (replace only if indicated). I eventually realized that if I just did both every time I saved a world of problems, downtime, and work.

Before I started doing a 100% speaker replacement (and replaced just the failed speaker as instructed by the budget watchers) you were feeding 200w to a brand new speaker and an older speaker. The older speaker would fail within a few shifts and you were back to a single speaker again, which then caused the other failure. No wonder we had two (three including a combo of both) basic PA300 failures; both being 100% "no sound" failures. I'd see trucks with heat damaged sirens/wiring and blown fuses with one bad speaker or trucks with two bad speakers, or maybe a combo of both problems (two bad speakers and heat issues). If both speakers were getting older, they both just failed one right after the other, and you had no sound, but a working siren without damage to the unit. In the days of only replacing one speaker, the "not new" other speaker just failed and we are back to having 200w shoved at one brand new speaker, that's more when I saw fuse/heat failures. I was seeing the outcomes of pushing 200w at a single 100w speaker and the variable was the condition of that single speaker. If one speaker was new I got damage to the siren wiring, if the speakers were both older, the speakers both died in order of condition. That's why my policy to never replace just one speaker ended up solving the a lot of the issues. In the end me becoming the "St. Patrick of Sirens" on the PA300 was the real fix, and having driven them from my island I was happy.

Thanks so much for posting this thread. it brought back painful memories, but it gave me some closure by exposing the etiology behind the "PA300 phenomenon".
 
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iandln050293

Member
Apr 8, 2019
125
NY
Here is where things clicked for me.... Get ready for a wall of text built by years of frustration;

I started thinking about my crusade against the PA300 at my two old jobs (ambulance maintenance). I was "Capt. Marcson, Remover of all things PA300 and Installer of all Things Whelen" to the point it became a joke. For some reason the region I work(ed) in love(d) PA300s and many ambulances and fire apparatus had them as a 200w primary siren. Also, they were a PITA to replace. I would end up with a 100W version having been installed as a replacement prior to me working on it or a replacement being ordered and showing up as the 100w version. If you just order a PA300 it's 100w. The 200w version is a special order, not a "hop on Galls real quick" purchase.

I used to complain to a guy with the same job at a nearby town/county that ran PA300s and Qs. I do love the sound of a Q overtop a 100w PA300; but there were rouge units with a Q and a 200w PA300 or just a PA300. He serviced PD stuff as well and somehow the PA300s bled over there. At the PD "the watts were made up and the speakers didn't matter". I remember calling him after I worked on 2 "identical" ambulances with sequential build numbers with completely different wiring on the sirens (PA300s). He told me to get used to it, and that he just pulled a 100w PA 300 running dual 100w speakers that was only woking because it was hooked up wrong and one speaker was essentially not connected.

After researching my answers for this thread I starting piecing this cluster together more; opening old wounds for the sake of full closure. I got a little more info from this I person mentioned too. Our going theory is that most sirens are designed to be 200w or 100w. The 200w versions of sirens are made to adjust to accommodate the removal (or non-installation) of one of the 100w speakers and run as a single speaker 100w siren. The 100w versions of sirens are just that, a 100w siren. The PA300, and all other PA siren versions until PA400, were that kind of true 100w siren. To accommodate 200w in the PA300 the power was stepped up in an "add on" way and a second "double watt" output added, the original design left unaltered. You really have a 100w siren with a "booster pack" output. If it were truly updated you would just have a single set of outputs or two identical ones and the option to hook up one or two speakers (like every other 200w siren). The presence of a single "high" and "low" output that must "never be used together" is very telling. The 200w PA300 shouldn't be a thing. Even an aux amp option like the older Whelen 295HFS2 would have been better. Leave the PA300 100w and allow an add on amp for 200w applications.

So, now to my saga of fighting the "200w" PA300 in real life. When you are running 200w via dual 100w speakers and one of your speakers blows on most sirens it is not a big deal. You lose 100w, On a PA300 you lose a speaker now your lone speaker is running as a 100w speaker on the "high" output. The manual says not to run a 100w speaker on the high output. Guess what happens? It blows too, and/or sometimes the siren overheats and blows the fuse (if you are lucky). Amongst the ambulances that had PA300s I worked on, every one had at least one heat damage incident usually a glass fuse holder melting or discoloration appearing with a fuse blowing, and they were the only model sirens where they would 100% fail due to needing BOTH speakers replaced. With the Carsons and Whelens the crews would notice and report a speaker out. They noticed either by volume, LED indicator, or lack of dual tone, and the work order would say as much. With Carson I'd get "Siren is quiet" and with Whelen I'd get "one red light on the siren is out" or "It's single tone only". I'd bring them in to my main building and slide under and (once I wised up) do both speakers as a preventive maintenance while I was under there. Maybe 75% of the time it was visibly time to replace both speakers due to salt damage anyway, which was initially the policy (replace only if indicated). I eventually realized that if I just did both every time I saved a world of problems, downtime, and work.

Before I started doing a 100% speaker replacement (and replaced just the failed speaker as instructed by the budget watchers) you were feeding 200w to a brand new speaker and an older speaker. The older speaker would fail within a few shifts and you were back to a single speaker again, which then caused the other failure. No wonder we had two (three including a combo of both) basic PA300 failures; both being 100% "no sound" failures. I'd see trucks with heat damaged sirens/wiring and blown fuses with one bad speaker or trucks with two bad speakers, or maybe a combo of both problems (two bad speakers and heat issues). If both speakers were getting older, they both just failed one right after the other, and you had no sound, but a working siren without damage to the unit. In the days of only replacing one speaker, the "not new" other speaker just failed and we are back to having 200w shoved at one brand new speaker, that's more when I saw fuse/heat failures. I was seeing the outcomes of pushing 200w at a single 100w speaker and the variable was the condition of that single speaker. If one speaker was new I got damage to the siren wiring, if the speakers were both older, the speakers both died in order of condition. That's why my policy to never replace just one speaker ended up solving the a lot of the issues. In the end me becoming the "St. Patrick of Sirens" on the PA300 was the real fix, and having driven them from my island I was happy.

Thanks so much for posting this thread. it brought back painful memories, but it gave me some closure by exposing the etiology behind the "PA300 phenomenon".
Hi John, I feel like I just read a pocket book lol.

Kidding aside, everything you have said made perfect sense. I currently distribute / sell sirens abroad and a major percentage of those sirens are either 100w or 200w PA300s. Believe it or not, I never had a problem with Whelens, Carsons, Code 3s and Galls or even SVPs! Guess where the headaches come from? Yes, from the 200w PA300s.

Before this thread, I was always wondering why the 200watt PA300s would consistently fail regardless of the condition. I had clients say to me that the 200w versions always seem to pop the fuse for no apparent reason. Or, that the siren burns through an unsual amount for speakers in a short amount of time. Because of your story, it now makes perfect sense to me.

Conclusion:
The 200w version of the PA300 officially sucks. The 100w version is still good though, and I think it was really meant to stay as a 100w version from the start and the 200w versions were just made to compete with the proliferation of 200w whelens and such. Whew. Thanks for your story! I learned a lot!
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
Hi John, I feel like I just read a pocket book lol.
I didn't realize how much pent up PA300 rage I had from almost 20 years of replacing them in ambulances.....
The 200w version of the PA300 officially sucks. The 100w version is still good though, and I think it was really meant to stay as a 100w version from the start and the 200w versions were just made to compete with the proliferation of 200w whelens and such. Whew. Thanks for your story! I learned a lot!
Somewhere, preferable before you sell or buy one there needs to be a disclaimer for the PA300:
*great 100W version, 200W version should be avoided at all costs. Seriously. Just pretend there isn't a 200W version.
 

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