VHF Invehicular Repeater.

Ok here is what im looking for and dont know if its possible. Since our great county sheriff decided to narrowband in Febuary of this year my dept is having trouble reaching the communications center. I have heard of in-vehicular repeaters but know one in our area uses them. I have a Kenwood tk-7160 vhf mobile radio in my chiefs vehicle and all our portables are kenwood tk-2180s, 2160s, or 260gs. Is their anyway to create a vhf repeated system with this equipment. The county dispatch is not repeated on fire channels and their not sure if or when they can afford to do this. Any ideas would be appreciated.
 

PC Comms

Member
May 30, 2010
1,881
Beautiful southern Georgia!
You need to be a little more specific as to what you want the repeater to do. Are you looking to use the portables to access the vehicle radios which are transmitting at a higher wattage? The reason I ask is because every radio you listed is narrowband compliant. If this is what you are looking to do, I would recommend using a Pyramid vehicle repeater which would allow you to use your handhelds to go through the vehicle's radio. Only thing is, if you are using all VHF portables, you would need to use a VHF repeater which would require you to space the antennas on the vehicles (the vehicle radio antenna and the repeater antenna) AT LEAST 18" or so apart to cut down on intermod.
 

wkr518

Member
May 22, 2010
955
42.791127, -73.679758
If its Wood County I see they are licensed for 110watts ERP on their Fire KQH447 /WPQY958 FCC licenses. They also also licensed for repeater operation on 153.890 and I see Hoytville has 151.880 simplex (non repeated).


Kenwood TK7160 mobiles run in flavors of 25-50watts power output , with a 3db gain antenna they should be putting out close to 80-90watts.The topography map appears to be mostly flat land is that so?


Narrowbanding does lose some range,but it should be nominal.In VHF we are finding sometimes its not just changing the channels from wide 25khz to narrowband 12.5khz that is the only requirement,some radios need to tweaked aka re-tuned to optimize operation in 12.5 bandwidths.


As PC Comms mentioned there are vehicle repeaters from Pyramid Corp available but I can tell you they are not cheap as inband notch filters add to the price a bit


pyramidcomm - Vehicular Repeaters Products


I also see a license that was for Hoytville-Jackson Twshp KNGK203 that expired in 2003 for 153.890..you could try to get re-licensed for that for an input frequency into a vehicle repeater system.


Most vehicle repeaters go into your First Due apparatus or even a Chiefs vehicle,if space allows.


Wish I could recommend a more cost effective unit by Vertex called VX1000 but the VHF model is not narrowband complaint now Land Mobile Radio | Vertex Standard | VXR-1000


But then again, I am going off of infos in your profile as to your location and agency.
 

Jordan_TCFD

Member
May 22, 2010
407
Chattanooga,TN, Bryant,
The best thing to do is use UHF vehicular repeaters, but you do have to go buy another portable, which is a pain.


Like PC said, you can use in band repeaters, but it get a little complicated. Pyramid will always tell you to use pass and notch filters on the repeater and mobile if using in band. The State of Tennessee uses TK-790's with VHF repeaters without filters. What they do is put the VRS(Vehicular repeater system) on a glass mount antenna and the mobile on the NMO roof mount. It seems to work well for them.


When we went to the Pyramid training a few months ago there was another company that also didn't use filters. I recommend as far apart as possible.


Example, sedan vehicle, mobile antenna on trunk and put the glass mount on the windshield.


The main problem you have is the power of the RF going into the other radio and killing the front end, and making you replace a $400-1,000.00 radio.


I have personally used cross band(VHF mobile, UHF VRS) and the systems work great, one was a TK-7160 with a Pyramid repeater. Motorola's even let you switch between 8 channels(Had one of those as well). You do have options, but the VHF VRS' are hard to find used. I am debating on putting a UHF Vertex VX-1000's on my Kenwood TK-5710H P-25 radio.


Jordan,TCFD
 
The problem i am having is our officers portables reaching the communications center. Before the narrowbanding i could talk to the communications center from my tk-2180 kenwood and now with narrowbanding i cannot. 153.890 is for Fire/Ems dispatching all talking is done on 154.220 (Well supposed to but some departments do not follow this) Thats why i want a invehcular repeater. Yes our land is pretty well flat

wkr518 said:
If its Wood County I see they are licensed for 110watts ERP on their Fire KQH447 /WPQY958 FCC licenses. They also also licensed for repeater operation on 153.890 and I see Hoytville has 151.880 simplex (non repeated).
Kenwood TK7160 mobiles run in flavors of 25-50watts power output , with a 3db gain antenna they should be putting out close to 80-90watts.The topography map appears to be mostly flat land is that so?


Narrowbanding does lose some range,but it should be nominal.In VHF we are finding sometimes its not just changing the channels from wide 25khz to narrowband 12.5khz that is the only requirement,some radios need to tweaked aka re-tuned to optimize operation in 12.5 bandwidths.


As PC Comms mentioned there are vehicle repeaters from Pyramid Corp available but I can tell you they are not cheap as inband notch filters add to the price a bit


pyramidcomm - Vehicular Repeaters Products


I also see a license that was for Hoytville-Jackson Twshp KNGK203 that expired in 2003 for 153.890..you could try to get re-licensed for that for an input frequency into a vehicle repeater system.


Most vehicle repeaters go into your First Due apparatus or even a Chiefs vehicle,if space allows.


Wish I could recommend a more cost effective unit by Vertex called VX1000 but the VHF model is not narrowband complaint now Land Mobile Radio | Vertex Standard | VXR-1000


But then again, I am going off of infos in your profile as to your location and agency.
 

MPD 818

Member
May 25, 2010
1,317
Murfreesboro TN
I think a better question would be who maintains your radio systems? I would call them and ask them what is going on with your radio before I tried to do an "invehcular" repeater.
 

wkr518

Member
May 22, 2010
955
42.791127, -73.679758
hoytvillefireman6903 said:
The problem i am having is our officers portables reaching the communications center. Before the narrowbanding i could talk to the communications center from my tk-2180 kenwood and now with narrowbanding i cannot. 153.890 is for Fire/Ems dispatching all talking is done on 154.220 (Well supposed to but some departments do not follow this) Thats why i want a invehcular repeater. Yes our land is pretty well flat

Are all the portables now having issues reaching dispatch center?


How far is your district from main dispatch?


To be honest, these are all questions that your local radio system vendor should be asking you and trying to solve for your agency.Has the issue been brought to their attention?


You are not alone in this scenerio,many first responders have to go to vehicle mounted mobile radios to reach dispatch on the high power mobile radios.If any other portables CAN reach dispatch where yours cannot I would have your portable tested for output power and stability on frequency.Narrowband operation is less forgiving than wideband on stability.


I do not deal with alot of Kenwood but if you were using Motorola and local here with the same issues I would :


1. check radio for proper operation and settings and have it tuned


2. loan you 2 CDM750 VHF connected with a Rick (repeater interface kit) and separate antennas and a portable with private input into the RICK to see if you reached dispatch ok


3.if #2 did not work,then explore invehicle repeater by Pyramid.Motorola also make them but they 3X the price of Pyramid solutions.


radios are like cars,its not all just program and go .they need tuning every once in a while as they do deviate off normal operation at times.
 

tnems7

Member
May 21, 2010
407
USA Nashville Tennessee
If you need to relicense or obtain another frequency for an in-band or cross band vehicle repeater, this will add cost. In addition, most frequency assignments below 512 MHz will require a frequency coordination fee.


Here are some other things to explore that can enhance portable radio efficiency, before you invest in a vehicle repeater system:


Try to imagine a "line of sight" to the base station antenna. Moving a few feet in either direction can sometimes eliminate buildings or terrain obstacles that block or weaken signals.


Something else to explore is the type of antenna you are using on your hand-held radios. Most 'rubber ducky' antenna are designed to accomodate a wide bandspread across the VHF spectrum. But if you obtain a more specific antenna, tuned to your frequency, it really does "focus" your radio conversations.


I actually witnessed two-watt portables with a tuned telescopic antenna outperform five watt portables with a rubber-ducky.


Don't leave the radio on the belt and depend on a speaker microphone. Positioning the radio on the shoulder or using a speaker-microphone with an integrated antenna may help.
 

Az_Medic

Member
Mar 30, 2011
175
US AZ
hoytvillefireman6903 said:
Since our great county sheriff decided to narrowband in Febuary of this year my dept is having trouble reaching the communications center.


Just to let you know it wasn't your great county sheriff to decide to go narrow band. It's a federal requirement. :eek:
 

wkr518

Member
May 22, 2010
955
42.791127, -73.679758
Az_Medic said:
Just to let you know it wasn't your great county sheriff to decide to go narrow band. It's a federal requirement. :eek:

and he is more ahead in his game than some other Sheriffs I deal with almost daily basis,


:)
 
May 20, 2010
990
Mission, Texas RGV
Just get one radio programmed with narrow band and get a patching system


This one is very good you can control up to 4 radios and patch the radios in the unit or at the dispatch center


It happens I had one in my hand when readin this since it just came in lol


ai257.photobucket.com_albums_hh214_luismariadarlene_79c84da6.jpg
 

Forum Statistics

Threads
53,971
Messages
449,820
Members
19,104
Latest member
airflores

About Us

  • Since 1997, eLightbars has been the premier venue for all things emergency warning equipment. Discussions, classified listings, pictures, videos, chat, & more! Our staff members strive to keep the forums organized and clutter-free. All of our offerings are free-of-charge with all costs offset by banner advertising. Premium offerings are available to improve your experience.

User Menu

Secure Browsing & Transactions

eLightbars.org uses SSL to secure all traffic between our server and your browsing device. All browsing and transactions within are secured by an SSL Certificate with high-strength encryption.