Whelen Sapphire programming issues.

dudek_peter

Member
Dec 27, 2014
21
I have a DUO liberty 1 WC ( built in 2013) connected to a sapphire. I’m trying to have the bar do a left right pattern. I’ll set the drivers side bar to phase 0 and set the passenger side bar to 180. It plays properly on command software and when I transfer it to the sapphire it changes it to the 4 corners to phase 0 and the 4 inboards to phase 180. I tried using the pre legacy check box and when I use that the entire bar just goes to steady burn. I also tried to rebuild the bar in both WeCad and Command but I can’t figure out or find a Liberty 1 DUO WC. Any ideas on what could be wrong.
 

Da-Sarge

Member
Feb 27, 2020
393
Canada
The heads may be plugged into the wrong connectors in the bar you may need to open the bar to swap connectors that way the bar matches the command software my duo did something Simalar but had rear corners swapped for 2 of the inboards took some figuring out what connector is what but ser your patturns in command and with the bar open start swapping connectors around till everything matches up properly its alot of tinkering but load the patturn on for a single set of heads have it on and match the desired heads and color to the rite connector keep doing this till everything matches up I had to do this took a while but its well worth it sometimes bars come with heads plugged into the incorrect connectors on the harness its easy to do but depending upon the vehicle you might need a step stool
 
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dudek_peter

Member
Dec 27, 2014
21
The heads may be plugged into the wrong connectors in the bar you may need to open the bar to swap connectors that way the bar matches the command software my duo did something Simalar but had rear corners swapped for 2 of the inboards took some figuring out what connector is what but ser your patturns in command and with the bar open start swapping connectors around till everything matches up properly its alot of tinkering but load the patturn on for a single set of heads have it on and match the desired heads and color to the rite connector keep doing this till everything matches up I had to do this took a while but its well worth it sometimes bars come with heads plugged into the incorrect connectors on the harness its easy to do but depending upon the vehicle you might need a step stool
So I should have added before I was messing around with the bar it was working fine.
 

Da-Sarge

Member
Feb 27, 2020
393
Canada
What was its patturn before the changes? Also data carnation could be a possibility try a new cable or port and or reinstall whelen command and retry the config
 
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RS485

Supporting Donor
Aug 5, 2019
369
Central MA
To test Da-Sarge's theory, you should be able to go into the programming software and pick a simple pattern (i.e. SigAlert75) , and stick it on only one head (i.e. passenger front outer, and only one color if its DUO), download it onto saphire, then push the switch you attached it to, and see which head flashes on the lightbar.

Repeat this process for each and only one single head at a time. If Da-Sarge's theory is correct, you're going to see what appears to be the wrong head flash...and that's because the wrong head is plugged into the wrong port in the controller inside the light bar.

Hope this helps
 

Nolines

Member
Apr 5, 2018
1,678
Margate, FL
I thought he said this....

So I should have added before I was messing around with the bar it was working fine.

So it doesn't sound to me like wrong wiring, but who knows what the original program was.
 

RS485

Supporting Donor
Aug 5, 2019
369
Central MA
Good point - but if "working fine" meant a simple pattern flashing 0/180 phasing, that could hide wiring issued. OP mentioned "a left right pattern" so (perhaps mistakenly) thought "Traffic Advisor" of some kind. If so, I'm not sure user-selected phasing applies - because (behind the scenes) WeCan software assigns each lamp/module with very specific phasing (i.e 01, 02, 04, 08, 10, 20, 40, 80 for a "sweep" effect).

In any case, @dudek_peter - maybe you could save and share your file? I have WeCan7 and Command. I'd be more than happy to take a look at it and see what comes out.
 

dudek_peter

Member
Dec 27, 2014
21
Good point - but if "working fine" meant a simple pattern flashing 0/180 phasing, that could hide wiring issued. OP mentioned "a left right pattern" so (perhaps mistakenly) thought "Traffic Advisor" of some kind. If so, I'm not sure user-selected phasing applies - because (behind the scenes) WeCan software assigns each lamp/module with very specific phasing (i.e 01, 02, 04, 08, 10, 20, 40, 80 for a "sweep" effect).

In any case, @dudek_peter - maybe you could save and share your file? I have WeCan7 and Command. I'd be more than happy to take a look at it and see what comes out.
So prior to me messing around with the bar it was a SF300 phased 0 on drivers side 180 on passenger side. I wanted to slow it down to a more reasonable pattern and now it’s just completely doing weird things. I’ll try to download the file next time I’m at work.
 

dudek_peter

Member
Dec 27, 2014
21
So back story to why I was messing around with it. My friends agency has a EMS fly car. In slide switch two and one the wanted the light bar pattern slowed down. So I tried that and ever since then it’s been acting up.
 

RS485

Supporting Donor
Aug 5, 2019
369
Central MA
One easy single experiment would be to change all heads you've already chosen, and make them all flash on the same phase. If, they wind up all flashing on the same phase, that would further suggest the heads on the light bar don't match the ordering expected by the software (which could easily be explained by having heads plugged into the wrong places).

But just to be clear, when you say, "acting up" -- are there other misbehaviors? or exactly and only what you first described?

If the misbehavior is only what you described, then this could all be explained by mis-wiring and while a bit of a PITA, could be worked-around by simply assigning the phasing to each individual head...once you know exactly where each head is.

It also might be worth reaching out to Whelen's tech support. Given the model and serial number, I'd hope they could advise as to how ensure the correct lightbar configuration in the first place. That said, if someone moved stuff around then even Whelen can't help with that.
 
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dudek_peter

Member
Dec 27, 2014
21
One easy single experiment would be to change all heads you've already chosen, and make them all flash on the same phase. If, they wind up all flashing on the same phase, that would further suggest the heads on the light bar don't match the ordering expected by the software (which could easily be explained by having heads plugged into the wrong places).

But just to be clear, when you say, "acting up" -- are there other misbehaviors? or exactly and only what you first described?

If the misbehavior is only what you described, then this could all be explained by mis-wiring and while a bit of a PITA, could be worked-around by simply assigning the phasing to each individual head...once you know exactly where each head is.

It also might be worth reaching out to Whelen's tech support. Given the model and serial number, I'd hope they could advise as to how ensure the correct lightbar configuration in the first place. That said, if someone moved stuff around then even Whelen can't help with that.
By acting up I mean just not keeping the phasing. I’ll hit the pattern preview in command, dump it to the bar and then hit the pattern preview again in command and it’s completely different. I’ll have drivers side bar set to 0 and passengers side bar set to 180, preview the patterns, dump the file and then when I hit pattern preview again the bar will have the 4 corners will be automatically changed to phase zero and all four inboard will automatically change to 180. I’m leaning more towards a sapphire issue than a bar issue. It’s the strangest thing in the world.
 

Da-Sarge

Member
Feb 27, 2020
393
Canada
Low current bars are pretty easy to configure the serial controlled bars are different though versatile can be a bit of a pain if miswired or not configured correctly in this case setting a simple flash patturn at a designated head you can correct the issues it takes a while to get things fixed up but you'll know everything is matched up correctly
 

RS485

Supporting Donor
Aug 5, 2019
369
Central MA
By acting up I mean just not keeping the phasing. I’ll hit the pattern preview in command, dump it to the bar and then hit the pattern preview again in command and it’s completely different. I’ll have drivers side bar set to 0 and passengers side bar set to 180, preview the patterns, dump the file and then when I hit pattern preview again the bar will have the 4 corners will be automatically changed to phase zero and all four inboard will automatically change to 180. I’m leaning more towards a sapphire issue than a bar issue. It’s the strangest thing in the world.
So its as if the act of transferring the configuration to Sapphire, alters/changes/corrupts this configuration right before your eyes...right? Is that what you're saying?
And that both the physical lightbar, and the "preview" in Command software identically reflect the same altered configuration of phase assignments after the transfer, right?

Attached is a screen shot of "Instruction View" in Command. I've highlighted a few things of interest and if you were to examine Instruction View before and after you do the "Transfer" and you see head/phase assignments change, then this seems like a bug in Command software.

This is pure speculation...but I wonder if there is some rule-enforcement being applied in order to ensure the lightbar's programming meets some title certification. Your use-case seems wicked simple and such a glaring bug seems unlikely. But as you say, "It’s the strangest thing in the world." so it may not be so much a "bug" but a "feature".
 

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dudek_peter

Member
Dec 27, 2014
21
So its as if the act of transferring the configuration to Sapphire, alters/changes/corrupts this configuration right before your eyes...right? Is that what you're saying?
And that both the physical lightbar, and the "preview" in Command software identically reflect the same altered configuration of phase assignments after the transfer, right?

Attached is a screen shot of "Instruction View" in Command. I've highlighted a few things of interest and if you were to examine Instruction View before and after you do the "Transfer" and you see head/phase assignments change, then this seems like a bug in Command software.

This is pure speculation...but I wonder if there is some rule-enforcement being applied in order to ensure the lightbar's programming meets some title certification. Your use-case seems wicked simple and such a glaring bug seems unlikely. But as you say, "It’s the strangest thing in the world." so it may not be so much a "bug" but a "feature".
Yes the act of transferring is where issue occurs right before my eyes. Attached below is a YouTube Video of exactly what it’s doing.
 

RS485

Supporting Donor
Aug 5, 2019
369
Central MA
Wow - right before our eyes.
Maybe someone here on ELB can explain this. I can't.
I think you should contact Whelen's tech support and I'm really curious about what they'd tell you.
 

dudek_peter

Member
Dec 27, 2014
21
Wow - right before our eyes.
Maybe someone here on ELB can explain this. I can't.
I think you should contact Whelen's tech support and I'm really curious about what they'd tell you.
I contacted them previously and they said to rebuild the bar in either WeCad or command butttttt neither of the softwares have a Liberty 1 DUO WC so there’s that
 

Nolines

Member
Apr 5, 2018
1,678
Margate, FL
Right no duo exists in liberty 1 series only liberty 2 with duo availability, and no we can, only sc, and lc setups, only way to get that option was to change out the I/o board.
 

shues

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 21, 2010
10,276
NW Indiana
Right no duo exists in liberty 1 series only liberty 2 with duo availability, and no we can, only sc, and lc setups, only way to get that option was to change out the I/o board.

I think you're mistaken:

xazESOj.png


Source:
 
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RS485

Supporting Donor
Aug 5, 2019
369
Central MA
I contacted them previously and they said to rebuild the bar in either WeCad or command butttttt neither of the softwares have a Liberty 1 DUO WC so there’s that
Did you by any chance first extract and save what was on the sappire in the first place? If so, I'm wondering if you might have some luck with the Cencom Carbide software still available from Whelen (I think)
 

dudek_peter

Member
Dec 27, 2014
21
Did you by any chance first extract and save what was on the sappire in the first place? If so, I'm wondering if you might have some luck with the Cencom Carbide software still available from Whelen (I think)
I believe I do. I’ll dig around my computer.
 

RS485

Supporting Donor
Aug 5, 2019
369
Central MA
Strike that - It doesn't look like Carbide SW will work.
In any case, maybe go back to Whelen and ask for SW compatible with your Sapphire (maybe give them the serial # and year).

I'd hope they'd still have it available on request.

If the eBay/USPS gods are in good spirits, I hope to have a Sapphire soon. I'll be eager to retrace your steps and see if I can reproduce this :)
 
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Nolines

Member
Apr 5, 2018
1,678
Margate, FL
That's because the liberty 1 bars are listed in the beginning, the rest of the sheet is gen 2 liberty bars. And trying to find that install manual is like pulling teeth, the old website listed the full liberty 1's with the gen2's but I still can't find that build. Hmmm
 
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dudek_peter

Member
Dec 27, 2014
21
That's because the liberty 1 bars are listed in the beginning, the rest of the sheet is gen 2 liberty bars. And trying to find that install manual is like pulling teeth, the old website listed the full liberty 1's with the gen2's but I still can't find that build. Hmmm
Which sheet?
 

Da-Sarge

Member
Feb 27, 2020
393
Canada
To get the proper manual look under the bar (might be a bit hard but a mirror might help) get the bars model number and send it off to whelen they are more then happy to send you the manual pdf
 
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RS485

Supporting Donor
Aug 5, 2019
369
Central MA
To get the proper manual look under the bar (might be a bit hard but a mirror might help) get the bars model number and send it off to whelen they are more then happy to send you the manual pdf
Exactly! And the first two letters (i.e. "SB", "SA") should match the upper rightcorner in WeCad when your building the lightbar.
 

Nolines

Member
Apr 5, 2018
1,678
Margate, FL
Which sheet?
The one Shues uploaded it lists the gen 1 liberty bars, the sheet is actually for the gen 2's, I know cause I have the sx series bar that doesn't have wecan or duo capabilities without a liberty 2 I/o board, the gen2 I/o boards are hard to find, but you can still find the sc based liberty 1's on ebay.
 

shues

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 21, 2010
10,276
NW Indiana
The one Shues uploaded it lists the gen 1 liberty bars, the sheet is actually for the gen 2's, I know cause I have the sx series bar that doesn't have wecan or duo capabilities without a liberty 2 I/o board, the gen2 I/o boards are hard to find, but you can still find the sc based liberty 1's on ebay.
Correct. An SX-series Liberty is Single-Color, not Duo. An SX-series Liberty is Low-Current, not WeCan.

According to the fourth page of that document I uploaded, there are four series of WeCan Liberty which include some Duo capability: SA-series, SB-series, SR-series, and SW-series. Here's another that confirms it, coincidentally also on the fourth page:

 

RS485

Supporting Donor
Aug 5, 2019
369
Central MA
So if @dudek_peter physically disconnects the light-bar from his Sapphire module...and upon retracing his steps, reproduces what he observed in his video, do we all agree that the problem lies between the Command software and the Sapphire module he has?

So far, my (limited) experience only involves Whelen's "Control Point" and I've programmed them in WeCan and Command without ever having a light-bar attached/online.

Neither WeCan nor Command ever complained, "no light-bar attached" so, based on @dudek_peter's observations, unless there's something really special about the Sapphire module, I don't think the light-bar itself even matters.

What am I missing?
 

Da-Sarge

Member
Feb 27, 2020
393
Canada
The model numbers however are only limited to its stock configuration theres some thats custom builds judging by the configuration of the bar its not really built correctly you want to choose liberty 1 with duo TA or choose the freedom in order to get control of the heads you need it looks like your bar is setup like one of mine duo modules in front with the takedowns mine is tied to the flashers ports and set to steady burn configured as a freedom in the software the duo TA you can do the same that might be whats throwing off the software when you hooked up your sappire did you pull the configuration from it using the software? If you never you'll have to start from scratch and build your bar in wecad my 54" liberty does oddball stuff like this if its not built correctly in wecad
 
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dudek_peter

Member
Dec 27, 2014
21
Some time this week or next week I’ll put a ticket in with whelen support and see what they have to say about it.
 

Da-Sarge

Member
Feb 27, 2020
393
Canada
Some time this week or next week I’ll put a ticket in with whelen support and see what they have to say about it.
Sounds good :) I know whelen command doesn't list the full duo first gen liberty as they are quite rare and wecan only models keep us updated on what you hear back from whelen would be a useful tidbit of info for those who have these rare first duo liberty bars
 

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