NYS fire Vollys running Red to the rear

[firedude]

I was 17 when i graduated high school. I was 17 when i finished my emt class that summer. I started fire class at 17, turned 18 a couple weeks into it, and passed that. Took both tests, got both certs, got on a department within 2 months of finishing fire school, got red lights and a siren, and have been running code 3 ever since, with no major incidents, a couple close calls, that i saw coming, and had time to react to. So you want me to take off the red lights and siren because of age not ability???

First of, Im 19. Second, I would love to have red lights and sirens in my POV. However, it seams to be a trend that Gov't and FD's want to take code 3 responses away from volunteers. It may not be happening all over the US, but this is what I've seen. I have no doubt that a 18year old can do it, but there should be training before anyone drives code 3. It's not a given skill. Just wondering, did you recieve any training?

 

[timlinson]

IM 17, have my EVOC, and drive code 3. Age means less than maturity.

 

[bwoodruff]

IM 17, have my EVOC, and drive code 3. Age means less than maturity.

+1 for EVOC.


My EMS agency accepts CEVO, which is what I have, but the FD requires EVOC to drive any of their equipment, so I'm hoping to take that next time it is offered. I've heard it is a great class with a lot of hands on, whereas CEVO is all lecture (no driving).

 

[firedude]

Age means less than maturity.

I 100% totally agree! But some FD's and VAC's don't see it that way. There are many depts near me that don't let you drive till 25 for insurance reasons.

 

[bwoodruff]

I 100% totally agree! But some FD's and VAC's don't see it that way. There are many depts near me that don't let you drive till 25 for insurance reasons.

But you can medic at 18. HA!

 

[firedude]

But you can medic at 18. HA!

Medic? Maybe we use different termonology but to us, medic is short for paramedic, in which you must be 21. I assume you mean EMT, which we just call EMTs, Techs or Basics. You can offer some ALS when you are 18, if you are a EMT-I or EMT-CC but you aren't a medic. Again, this is what our area uses, your area is may be different.

 

[Steve0625]

Medic? Maybe we use different termonology but to us, medic is short for paramedic, in which you must be 21. I assume you mean EMT, which we just call EMTs, Techs or Basics. You can offer some ALS when you are 18, if you are a EMT-I or EMT-CC but you aren't a medic. Again, this is what our area uses, your area is may be different.

Yup, it's kind of a regional thing.


I come from the Rochester area where Ben is located. All the squads there started as BLS squads, and many of them way before EMT's came into existence. So to distinguish those qualified to drive from those qualified to work in the back, we ended up with "drivers" and "medics." (Emphasis on lower case here.... ) That was back in the 1960's and very early 1970's.


Then, when EMT's became the norm, the "medic" label stuck to the BLS EMT's qualified to work in the back with the patients. When Critical Care and later Paramedic started, we just called them either "CCT's" or "Paramedics."


Here in the western Capital region, EMT-B's are "EMT's" or Basics" and they kinda lump the CCT's and Paramedics under the term "Medics." Since some of the commercial services are now beginning to move to exclusively Paramedics, we're seeing a shift in the use of the term "Medic" in some services.


As you pointed out, 18 for EMT-B and 21 for Paramedic at a minimum. They don't seem to be offering any I or CC courses at all these days which I suspect is the DOH BEMS's way of gently phasing out those levels.

 

[chief1562]

Yup, it's kind of a regional thing.

I come from the Rochester area where Ben is located. All the squads there started as BLS squads, and many of them way before EMT's came into existence. So to distinguish those qualified to drive from those qualified to work in the back, we ended up with "drivers" and "medics." (Emphasis on lower case here.... ) That was back in the 1960's and very early 1970's.


Then, when EMT's became the norm, the "medic" label stuck to the BLS EMT's qualified to work in the back with the patients. When Critical Care and later Paramedic started, we just called them either "CCT's" or "Paramedics."


Here in the western Capital region, EMT-B's are "EMT's" or Basics" and they kinda lump the CCT's and Paramedics under the term "Medics." Since some of the commercial services are now beginning to move to exclusively Paramedics, we're seeing a shift in the use of the term "Medic" in some services.


As you pointed out, 18 for EMT-B and 21 for Paramedic at a minimum. They don't seem to be offering any I or CC courses at all these days which I suspect is the DOH BEMS's way of gently phasing out those levels.

They are still offering CC in Tioga co. Wife took intermediate in Tompkins but they are phasing that and using basic, cc, paramedic. as for the guy that wants red lights and siren get some years in and take the required courses Intro to fire Officer and Fire Officer 1 and any other courses available and run for office and just maybe where you are at your members might think you are ready to be an officer. don't be in ahurry to be able to run reds and siren takes a lot of responciblity and knowledge to have that right.


Paul

 

[Black Hoe]

EMT-CC is still being offered in the downstate counties like Nassau and Suffolk. It is up to the local REMSCO approved program agency in regards to the courses available in the region.

 

[theroofable]

They are still offering CC in Tioga co. Wife took intermediate in Tompkins but they are phasing that and using basic, cc, paramedic. as for the guy that wants red lights and siren get some years in and take the required courses Intro to fire Officer and Fire Officer 1 and any other courses available and run for office and just maybe where you are at your members might think you are ready to be an officer. don't be in ahurry to be able to run reds and siren takes a lot of responciblity and knowledge to have that right.
Paul

I guess its just different here, but all of the EMT agencies around me hire at 18, which means they are a driver/EMT. I see what you are saying with the fire side getting qualifications, but that doesnt apply to the ems world. Defensive driving and emergency operations isn't difficult to learn. It does not take a college degree. I don't understand why you think a qualified 18 year old shouldn't drive.

 

[NCFD43]

First of, Im 19. Second, I would love to have red lights and sirens in my POV. However, it seams to be a trend that Gov't and FD's want to take code 3 responses away from volunteers. It may not be happening all over the US, but this is what I've seen. I have no doubt that a 18year old can do it, but there should be training before anyone drives code 3. It's not a given skill. Just wondering, did you recieve any training?

EVOC, plus departmental training.

 

[bwoodruff]

Medic? Maybe we use different termonology but to us, medic is short for paramedic, in which you must be 21. I assume you mean EMT, which we just call EMTs, Techs or Basics. You can offer some ALS when you are 18, if you are a EMT-I or EMT-CC but you aren't a medic. Again, this is what our area uses, your area is may be different.

The term "medic" (as Steve mentioned, lower case "m") is used very loosely here. Could even be a CFR for a "2nd medic" so long as the "primary medic" is a carded and cleared EMT. The rigs in my agency tend to run two "medics." "Medic" (capitol "M") does generally refer to ALS units, which we consider CC and paramedic. We are phasing out CC and I, and I is not currently considered ALS. Anyone who doesn't upgrade to paramedic will be automatically downgraded to basic after the set date.

 

[ETA015]

Funny that this thread should get a boost right now. Our county sheriff's association posted this on their page on Facebook. (Since it is a public page on Facebook, I see no reason that it can't be repeated in it's entirety here):

First, the Blue Lights for volunteer firefighters and some interesting info for NYS Fire Police:


BLUE LIGHT BULLETIN - The NYS Vehicle & Traffic Law designates blue flashing lights (when not accompanied by other colored flashing lights) for Volunteer Firefighters and Fire Police to be used for the purpose of responding to or managing emergency incidents following an offical activation of the fire department of such Volunteer Firefighter or Fire Police member.





MOTORISTS - Blue flashing lights means there is an emergency. Upon seeing an apporaching vehicle(s) displaying blue flashing light(s) pull over and stop as soon as it becomes safe to do so thereby allowing such vehicle(s) to pass.





FULTON COUNTY FIREFIGHTERS & FIRE POLICE - While the specific wording contained within the NYS Vehicle & Traffic Law prescribes 'one blue light' to be used by members of a volunteer fire department, it remains the position of the Fulton County Sheriff's Office, as authorized by Fulton County Sheriff Thomas J. Lorey, that Volunteer Firefighters & Fire Police members utilize any combination of blue flashing light devices, including but not limited to grille lights, dash lights, roof lights and lightbars, for which members feel necessary to effect an enhanced, safe response to emergency incidents provided such blue light device(s) are approved by such member's department Chief. It has been and remains the position of the Fulton County Sheriff's Office that sworn Fire Police members acting pursuant to official duties within Fulton County be encouraged to, whenever possible, display red flashing lights on any personal vehicle remaining stationary while such sworn Fire Police member is engaged in performing traffic control operations at or in an area surrounding an emergency incident.





Ref. NYS VTL Article 375 (41) (4) (a)





FIRE POLICE - New statewide legislation has been proposed through NYS Bill S5021A last dated May 11, 2011, an act to amend the NYS Vehicle and Traffic law, in relation to the display of lights on vehicles owned by Fire Police members. The bill proposes that an amendment be made to NYS VTL Article 375(41) to include that, in order to expedite emergency response by Fire Police, since Fire Police need to report as quickly as possible to the scene of an emergency in order to secure an area for emergency vehicles, a blue grill light shall be placed on the passenger side of a Fire Police vehicle with a red grill light on the driver's side in order to permit Fire Police the right away in traffic. This will also allow Fire Police to set up a perimeter at the scene of an emergency. By changing the lights on Fire Police vehicles, this will ease Fire Police respondence to emergencies. With the exception of the Fire Chief's vehicle, all Fire Police vehicles will have to utilize an alternate red light/blue light system - NOT YET SIGNED INTO NYS LAW.


And then the Green Lights for volunteer EMS:


GREEN LIGHT BULLETIN - The NYS Vehicle & Traffic Law designates green flashing lights for Volunteer EMS Members to be used for the purpose of responding to emergency incidents following an offical activation of the EMS agency of such Volunteer EMS Member.





MOTORISTS - Green flashing lights means there is an emergency. Upon seeing an apporaching vehicle(s) displaying green flashing light(s) pull over and stop as soon as it becomes safe to do so thereby allowing such vehicle(s) to pass.





FULTON COUNTY EMS MEMBERS - While the specific wording contained within the NYS Vehicle & Traffic Law prescribes 'one green light' to be used by members of a volunteer EMS agency, it remains the position of the Fulton County Sheriff's Office, as authorized by Fulton County Sheriff Thomas J. Lorey, that Volunteer EMS personnel utilize any combination of green flashing light devices, including but not limited to grille lights, dash lights, roof lights and lightbars, for which members feel necessary to effect an enhanced, safe response to emergency incidents provided such green light device(s) are approved by such member's agency Chief Officer.





Ref. NYS VTL Article 375 (41) (5)

Here is what I think the NYS law/maximum lights on emergency vehicle equipment should be for Fire Police, CFR's, and EMTs that belong to a fire Department:


Fire Police: Grille Lights (Blue on the driver's side, Amber on the passenger's side) maximum amount is 4 pieces


Dash light (one double paneled dash light that contains Red/Blue)


Whelen M9 Lightbar ( Full front of bar is blue with one Red panel, and the back is amber with 2 panels of blue and one red panel)


Warning Bar (Amber)


acceptance of LED hideaways in front and tail lights


Siren


CFR, EMT: Grille Lights (Green) maximum amount is 2 pieces


Dash light (one double paneled dash light that contains Red/Blue)


Whelen M9 Lightbar ( Full front of bar is Red and Green, and the back is amber with 2 panels of green and one red panel)


Warning Bar (Amber)


acceptance of LED hideaways in front and tail lights


Siren


the reason why red is in there is for legal authority for the right-of-way. Green for CFRs and EMTs may replace some panels on the car such as the grills to properly identify a medical volunteer. siren to hear the car instead of seeing it.


personally, i wouldnt have all of this on my POV. for my POV, i would want red and blue grills, Whelen 9M lightbar, and a warning stick and siren, if the law was passed.


REQUIREMENTS: all Fire police and medical volunteers who wish to respond to the scene must complete the NYS defensive driving course. Medical volunteers must have equipment in their vehicle and be approved by your chief or captain. fire police must have their equipment to do their job as well. such as (vest, badge, traffic directing equipment, and if there is a domestic on the scene, handcuffs to restrain certain individuals so medical volunteers can do their job without being disturbed. remember, fire police have the legal authority to make warrantless arrests.


if you have any questions of how i determined this or you agree with me, please email me at jkeyrouze@nycap.rr.com

 

[bfd740]

Here is what I think the NYS law/maximum lights on emergency vehicle equipment should be for Fire Police, CFR's, and EMTs that belong to a fire Department:

Fire Police: Grille Lights (Blue on the driver's side, Amber on the passenger's side) maximum amount is 4 pieces


Dash light (one double paneled dash light that contains Red/Blue)


Whelen M9 Lightbar ( Full front of bar is blue with one Red panel, and the back is amber with 2 panels of blue and one red panel)


Warning Bar (Amber)


acceptance of LED hideaways in front and tail lights


Siren


CFR, EMT: Grille Lights (Green) maximum amount is 2 pieces


Dash light (one double paneled dash light that contains Red/Blue)


Whelen M9 Lightbar ( Full front of bar is Red and Green, and the back is amber with 2 panels of green and one red panel)


Warning Bar (Amber)


acceptance of LED hideaways in front and tail lights


Siren


the reason why red is in there is for legal authority for the right-of-way. Green for CFRs and EMTs may replace some panels on the car such as the grills to properly identify a medical volunteer. siren to hear the car instead of seeing it.


personally, i wouldnt have all of this on my POV. for my POV, i would want red and blue grills, Whelen 9M lightbar, and a warning stick and siren, if the law was passed.


REQUIREMENTS: all Fire police and medical volunteers who wish to respond to the scene must complete the NYS defensive driving course. Medical volunteers must have equipment in their vehicle and be approved by your chief or captain. fire police must have their equipment to do their job as well. such as (vest, badge, traffic directing equipment, and if there is a domestic on the scene, handcuffs to restrain certain individuals so medical volunteers can do their job without being disturbed. remember, fire police have the legal authority to make warrantless arrests.


if you have any questions of how i determined this or you agree with me, please email me at jkeyrouze@nycap.rr.com

I think there's too much of a mix of colors in there and it will get even more confusing to the public than it already is.


It should be like this:


If you can have a siren, you should have red/white for your primary colors (and allow optional blue in the back for safety reasons.)


If you can't have a siren, your color should be blue/green


If you can't have a siren but operate at the scene, you should have red lights that can be switched on separately when you get there.


I'm a NYS Vol. FF and I'm all for "getting more toys" but I have to say that I'm shaking my head at this one. (I also have red in the back )

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

ok , what part of this law dont you volleys understand ?


blah blah blah quoting the law blah blah blah


ONE , signular, uno , une , 1 .. half of two ... not 3 not one lightbar and one dash light and one pair of grille lights .. why do you think vols get laughed at ? Repsect the law , and the law will respect you ...


frmer nys firefighter

Ok, that's just being a douche. I think most of us get what the law is saying, and I highly doubt that people have more than 1 blue lights simply to disrespect the law.

Funny that this thread should get a boost right now. Our county sheriff's association posted this on their page on Facebook. (Since it is a public page on Facebook, I see no reason that it can't be repeated in it's entirety here):

First, the Blue Lights for volunteer firefighters and some interesting info for NYS Fire Police:


BLUE LIGHT BULLETIN - The NYS Vehicle & Traffic Law designates blue flashing lights (when not accompanied by other colored flashing lights) for Volunteer Firefighters and Fire Police to be used for the purpose of responding to or managing emergency incidents following an offical activation of the fire department of such Volunteer Firefighter or Fire Police member.





MOTORISTS - Blue flashing lights means there is an emergency. Upon seeing an apporaching vehicle(s) displaying blue flashing light(s) pull over and stop as soon as it becomes safe to do so thereby allowing such vehicle(s) to pass.





FULTON COUNTY FIREFIGHTERS & FIRE POLICE - While the specific wording contained within the NYS Vehicle & Traffic Law prescribes 'one blue light' to be used by members of a volunteer fire department, it remains the position of the Fulton County Sheriff's Office, as authorized by Fulton County Sheriff Thomas J. Lorey, that Volunteer Firefighters & Fire Police members utilize any combination of blue flashing light devices, including but not limited to grille lights, dash lights, roof lights and lightbars, for which members feel necessary to effect an enhanced, safe response to emergency incidents provided such blue light device(s) are approved by such member's department Chief. It has been and remains the position of the Fulton County Sheriff's Office that sworn Fire Police members acting pursuant to official duties within Fulton County be encouraged to, whenever possible, display red flashing lights on any personal vehicle remaining stationary while such sworn Fire Police member is engaged in performing traffic control operations at or in an area surrounding an emergency incident.





Ref. NYS VTL Article 375 (41) (4) (a)





FIRE POLICE - New statewide legislation has been proposed through NYS Bill S5021A last dated May 11, 2011, an act to amend the NYS Vehicle and Traffic law, in relation to the display of lights on vehicles owned by Fire Police members. The bill proposes that an amendment be made to NYS VTL Article 375(41) to include that, in order to expedite emergency response by Fire Police, since Fire Police need to report as quickly as possible to the scene of an emergency in order to secure an area for emergency vehicles, a blue grill light shall be placed on the passenger side of a Fire Police vehicle with a red grill light on the driver's side in order to permit Fire Police the right away in traffic. This will also allow Fire Police to set up a perimeter at the scene of an emergency. By changing the lights on Fire Police vehicles, this will ease Fire Police respondence to emergencies. With the exception of the Fire Chief's vehicle, all Fire Police vehicles will have to utilize an alternate red light/blue light system - NOT YET SIGNED INTO NYS LAW.


...


Ref. NYS VTL Article 375 (41) (5)

I like the post that Steve0625 posted about his area's position on it, and I think that is super progressive, smart and :thumbsup: :thumbsup: 2 thumbs up!!


BUT.... that being said....


As for the proposed legislation...


Fire Police to be "allowed" a single red grille with a single blue grille light to help them get to a scene to secure it... Do not get me wrong, well trained and proper use of Fire Police are invaluable, but really? The EMS and Fire/Rescue personnel trying to get to an accident scene, or a fire with people trapped still only get blue, but don't worry, the scene will be secured because Fire Police got there faster!!! I know that in a lot of places, especially my own, cannot really speak for any other areas... The Fire Police force tend to be the "retired" folks who served their time in the fire service and physically can no longer perform the actual tasks typically involved with fire suppression, or rescue operations.


Also, I feel that the "courtesy" in NYS is a thing of the past. For those who don't actually DRIVE in NYS (there is more to NY that just the City, just an fyi, common misconception), well, the courtesy is long gone for the vast majority of people. Blue, green, red, whatever. I think that lights SHOULD be accompanied by a siren, and I really do believe that vollies should be able to run lights and sirens, idc what color they may be. This of course should be pre-empted by proper training such as qualified (i.e. EMT or trained FF, not just a new member), and EVOC or CEVO.


IIRC, although I cannot find where it is cited, I believe in NYS, an EMT-B, so long as fully outfits a vehicle to Part 800 standards, can in fact run red lights and a siren, but of course departmental limitations can trump that and deny them that.


Now, finally in reference to the actual original topic... As for rear-facing colors... Pretty much anyone can have amber on their vehicle, and it is widely recognized by people as just a caution light. I don't see why this in combination with Blue would/could be an issue. That is what I run in the rear of my POV.


As for red and any other color imaginable to the rear, well, I don't personally know of anyone who drives to incidents while in reverse, so I cannot really think how many people would consider ANY rear-facing light as a "warning light" (if you want a definition of warning versus courtesy light, look it up in the NYS VTL). My POV has only RED lenses for S/T/T (stock housing/lenses), and Clear for reverse. When I put my 4-Way Flashers on, it blinks RED, so what is the big difference between adding a TL flasher or RED HAW in that same housing?


Again, I understand the NYS VTL, and it's interpretation(s), and these are just my thoughts on the issue.

 

[Steve0625]

Zapp, a very thoughtful reply and thanks for the kind words.


FWIW, I am not thrilled with the proposed legislation for fire police to run a mix of red and blue. I'd rather seem them granted the same privileges as chiefs and assistants - full red lights and siren plus flashing white to the front and optional blue to the rear, same as all other emergency vehicles in NYS.


You are pretty much correct on the EMS and Part 800, although the department rules and authorizations come first rather than the individual setting up a vehicle and then being approved or denied. If the department doesn't do it, no reason to even try to set up a car. If the department allows it, the EMT needs to get permission first before setting up the car. Not everyone is going to get authorization from their department.


I'm with you on the amber to the rear along with authorized green or blue. It's legal and effective. I only have amber to the rear at the moment on my truck and it works exceedingly well. But then a good wig-wag tail light flasher is effective, too.

 

[pdk9]

As said above, Long Island has the most offenders of using other colors and they pretty much run whatever they want, but I don't know if or how often LEOs confront them about it. I've worked in both Dutchess and Tompkins County NY, and, although the blue light law says 1 light, LEOs in both of those counties (from my experience) don't care how much blue lights you have as long as you don't drive like a dick.


In Dutchess County though, I saw quite a few people with red to the rear (strobes in brake lights or red LEDs). It really all depends on what the local LEOs have to say and what your relationship with them is, because some let stuff slide and others don't. I personally only kept blue to the front and rear of my POV when I lived in NY, but I think that blue and amber to the rear would be preferable ;-)

 

[mac7271]

LEOs in both of those counties (from my experience) don't care how much blue lights you have as long as you don't drive like a dick.
In Dutchess County though, I saw quite a few people with red to the rear (strobes in brake lights or red LEDs). It really all depends on what the local LEOs have to say and what your relationship with them is, because some let stuff slide and others don't. I personally only kept blue to the front and rear of my POV when I lived in NY, but I think that blue and amber to the rear would be preferable ;-)

I totally agree that that statement. For the fire department I run blue to the front and blue/amber to the rear on a license plate frame mount & that works great. I would have used blue/red to the rear however, I believe amber is a better rear warning light than red. If you want to run a combo of amber/red to the rear, for the most part, as long as your not driving erratically or with gross negligence, LEO's won't have an issue with it. Most FD's in my area have a real good relationship with law enforcement, so they tend to support us in what we do.But as always noted 'YMMV'.