I didn't see any comment that suggested volunteers were less professional/skilled than paid FFs, I think someone here suffers from an inferiority complex
Safety as an excuse for laziness
- Thread starter vc859
- Start date
chief1562
Member
WS224 said:
You just don't get it.
Keep your insults and fool mouth where it belongs.
either in your Toilet or the Ring.
firefighter7017
Member
WS224 said:
So was what I said, but I wasn't calling you names. The way I read it, especially with the attitude you have maintained in here, it is hard to tell what is a question from you and what is a smart-assed remark. If it was a question as you say, then you could've have simply just said that instead of being a prick about things.
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WS224
Member
I'll take that as a no. You should try carrying an extinguisher. They come with a handle made especially for that.
chief1562
Member
kitn1mcc
Member
i work for the Power Company. I use the saftey issue a lot. i explain why and that it can come back on me if i let it go. we also can used it for blocked equipment and unsanitary locations
chrismartin1701
Member
NYBLS said:
no thats not it. im completely fine with questions, as long as it aint from tool sheds like him. and im not the only one who feels that way.
WS224
Member
chrismartin1701 said:
I concur. There isn't anything that a guy making 250+ working fires a year for the last 18 years could have anything to offer about fires.
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SomeBloke
Member
Sounds more like a department needs to work on some fire prevention and community outreach instead of being proud about working so many fires.
A dirty helmet and turnouts doesn't mean anything but failure to maintain and inspect your gear.
My department had/has a huge focus on safety. Safety starts with training. Proper, intense training. Learning to do all the things and practicing until you can't get it wrong.
Thing is, if you're SMART and look at what you have, what you're working, look at how things are going, do all the things you get taught to do. Read up on construction. Read up on what's gone wrong elsewhere. Learn from others mistakes.
And finally, pay attention to the guys that have been doing it for years and have stayed on top of the game.
You'll know those guys because they are quick to learn and don't go on about the old days unless there's a tasty beverage in their hand standing around some burning meat.
You'll save people's stuff, save someone on the best day of your life, and be one of those guys that gets to teach people down the road.
A dirty helmet and turnouts doesn't mean anything but failure to maintain and inspect your gear.
My department had/has a huge focus on safety. Safety starts with training. Proper, intense training. Learning to do all the things and practicing until you can't get it wrong.
Thing is, if you're SMART and look at what you have, what you're working, look at how things are going, do all the things you get taught to do. Read up on construction. Read up on what's gone wrong elsewhere. Learn from others mistakes.
And finally, pay attention to the guys that have been doing it for years and have stayed on top of the game.
You'll know those guys because they are quick to learn and don't go on about the old days unless there's a tasty beverage in their hand standing around some burning meat.
You'll save people's stuff, save someone on the best day of your life, and be one of those guys that gets to teach people down the road.
Jarred J.
Lifetime VIP Donor
i beleive ws224 works in a city with a residence of over 1/2 million people...
250 fires with that many people seems kinda low.
heres the stats from 2010 census
Population, 2010 646,889 6,346,
250 fires with that many people seems kinda low.
heres the stats from 2010 census
Population, 2010 646,889 6,346,
chief1562
Member
Jarred J. said:
Well obvious he streachs it out there a bit even if wrong......make that all the time
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chrismartin1701
Member
my dept gets maybe 2-6 real fires in a year. be it structure, brush or mutual aid(mostly brush). we dont normally get a large call volume. in fact, general call total per month(both fire and EMS) is around 1-3 a month. although we have a very large district(unsure of exact size but im gonna guess somewhere around 500 square miles) our area is mostly farm land with low density residential. one thing that we do have that could become an issue possibly in the future is a very large Pharmaceutical plant that houses a lot of volatile chemicals and 2 500 gallon propane tanks. oddly enough its right across the street from the fire house. however, the way we operate is not out of heroism but from years of experience and what was set in our SOP's a few decades ago.
in answer to your question WS224, we dont use fire extinguishers for the simple fact that a lot of the alarms we typically get is due to something overheating. if an object has no flames showing from it but has a high temp from our thermal imaging camera then we use water to cool it down, which is something that a ABC extinguisher or dry chemical extinguisher cannot do. thats why per our stations SOP's we bring in 1 small line uncharged and use it only if we need it.
in answer to your question WS224, we dont use fire extinguishers for the simple fact that a lot of the alarms we typically get is due to something overheating. if an object has no flames showing from it but has a high temp from our thermal imaging camera then we use water to cool it down, which is something that a ABC extinguisher or dry chemical extinguisher cannot do. thats why per our stations SOP's we bring in 1 small line uncharged and use it only if we need it.
Jarred J.
Lifetime VIP Donor
Sure they are only 500 gallon tanks? thats small. here on the proerty i secure we have 2 18,000 gallon tanks. if they pop there is no more half of this town...
chrismartin1701
Member
Jarred J. said:
they might be closer to 1000 i dont really remember without looking at our map of the facility.
chrismartin1701
Member
NYBLS said:
we dont have any. we have mostly dry chemical. interestingly enough, we have a type K extinguisher that has been in the station for decades but never used. i keep asking the chief for water based extinguishers but he doesnt see a need for them. so consequently, we dont get any.
chief1562
Member
chrismartin1701 said:
(not trying to be critical or rude, I just work in Emerg Mgt) When was the last time the fire dept response plans were reviewed with the facility and/or updated? May be time for another.. (and a good time to ask them for a donation if you need to be able to offer a more specialized response.. Or ask the town/community/etc for additional funding...
Personally with a place like the one you mentioned, I'd want every FF @ the firehall knowing that plan and response in details.. Pharm plants are a fun place to have fire..
chrismartin1701
Member
unlisted said:
it was updated about 4 years ago. the chart is up on our board in the office and Stamford station has charts of the facility as well. if we get so much as an alarm call, we go with everything we have from both Hobart and Stamford as this is a HUGE facility. the plant is called Covidien. its a name that should be familiar to some. this is just a sample of the front of the building:
chrismartin1701
Member
unlisted said:4 years ago? time for an update.
I'm for hire btw..
Seriously tho, time for an update.
the lay out is the same now as it was 8 years ago. the only thing that was updated 4 years ago was the addition of a non-chemical storage unit
Not just the layout which could of changed. But hey, what do I know? I only did my post grad in EM and business continuity. ANY EM plan should be updated at least once a year, or after any incident, regardless of size.
Get in touch with your EM rep for your area.
Get in touch with your EM rep for your area.
WS224
Member
Jarred J. said:
I work about 100 days a year and cover about 1/30 of the City as 1st, 2nd, or 3rd due. Those are just the ones I make. Not all of them in the City.
Jarred J.
Lifetime VIP Donor
chrismartin1701
Member
unlisted said:
we are due for a drill that we cooperate with Stamford once a year. when we have our drills, the EM charts are updated. we havent had one in a few years though
vonirkinshtine
Member
Going along with JazzDad's post above, here's a story that just came through the pipes:
1 firefighter killed, 5 others injured at Ill. crash scene
Going along with the theme of this thread...when will departments stop responding to accidents? Or completely shutting down an interstate to put down some oil-dry?
1 firefighter killed, 5 others injured at Ill. crash scene
Going along with the theme of this thread...when will departments stop responding to accidents? Or completely shutting down an interstate to put down some oil-dry?
Having just taken the time to read through the thread, and noticing the common problem, I'll take a moment to weigh in: It seems like a lot of the issues would be solved with better inter-agency communication. Like someone said back on Page 1, there is no need for 6 cop cars to respond a post-domestic disturbance. There is also no need for 3 rigs, 2 ambulances, a chief, and a ALS unit for a guy pulled over to read a map. What it boils down to is people getting over-excited when a rumor of something having possibly happened, and they're already on scene by the time the First Responders (or a follow-up phone call from the original caller) can notify that there is no emergency. Meetings between local agencies would most likely help prevent a crowd response from everyone with a pulse and a radio.
As far as the whole "not taking people outside with IV's and tubing, as opposed to letting them die peacefully in their house", I can agree with, under special circumstances. I worked a code where the patient's family didn't call until 2 hours after they witnessed the patient go unconscious. In that scenario, we worked the code, but we ended pronouncing, had cops called to stay with the body, and left with an empty stretcher. There was nothing to do, and no need to drag a body through the city. But, if there's a chance I can bring the patient back, you bet your ass I'll code surf all the way into the resuscitation unit at the hospital. If you don't want to be poked, prodded, and get your ribs shattered, get a DNR, and don't call me. If I get toned out to your home, and you don't have a DNR, guess who's getting their ribs broken.
I can't discuss the fire stuff, I don't know anything more other than, "AAAAAHHH!!! Get out!!!"
As far as the whole "not taking people outside with IV's and tubing, as opposed to letting them die peacefully in their house", I can agree with, under special circumstances. I worked a code where the patient's family didn't call until 2 hours after they witnessed the patient go unconscious. In that scenario, we worked the code, but we ended pronouncing, had cops called to stay with the body, and left with an empty stretcher. There was nothing to do, and no need to drag a body through the city. But, if there's a chance I can bring the patient back, you bet your ass I'll code surf all the way into the resuscitation unit at the hospital. If you don't want to be poked, prodded, and get your ribs shattered, get a DNR, and don't call me. If I get toned out to your home, and you don't have a DNR, guess who's getting their ribs broken.
I can't discuss the fire stuff, I don't know anything more other than, "AAAAAHHH!!! Get out!!!"
timlinson
New Member
Just thought I'd add in our protocols:
Cardiac Arrest:
Withholding resuscitation:
Cardiac Arrest:
Code:
The goal in the cardiac arrest patient is: rapid assessment, rapid intervention by establishing an adequate airway, ongoing CPR, application of an AED, and defibrillation. Transport should be started as soon as practical, and ALS intercept called for early. Treatment needs to be ongoing during all phases of transport. CPR and ventilation may need to be stopped to facilitate some phases of patient transport. These interruptions should be minimized as much as possible by evaluating all phases of patient extrication and transport prior to carrying out the individual steps. Early notification of the receiving emergency department and medical control is necessary. Although individual treatments are listed individually in practical application, many steps are carried out simultaneously when they can be.
1. Baseline care standards.
2. Establish that the patient is pulseless and breathless. Begin CPR.
3. If cardiac arrest was unwitnessed or EMS arrival to the patient is estimated to be more than 5 minutes since the patient went into arrest, complete 2 minutes of CPR prior to defibrillation.
• During initial administration of CPR, the AED should be attached to the patient.
4. If cardiac arrest was witnessed and EMS arrival to the patient is estimated to be less than 5 minutes since the patient went into arrest, attach the AED to the patient and check rhythm prior to beginning CPR. Follow prompts given by AED.
5. After the first and all subsequent defibrillations, immediately begin CPR for 2 minutes.
• CPR should not be delayed for rhythm or pulse checks unless signs of circulation have returned.
6. A maximum of 3 defibrillations may be delivered on scene prior to initiating transport.
7. If the AED advises no shock, initiate transport with rhythm checks by the AED occurring approximately every 2 minutes.
8. Manage airway per Airway/Breathing Management protocol.
9. Transport per protocol.Withholding resuscitation:
Code:
All patients found in cardiac arrest will receive resuscitative efforts per protocol. If you are unsure, begin resuscitation until you are certain that you may stop. The EMS provider may choose not to resuscitate or discontinue resuscitation in the following circumstances.
1. Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) order is presented to the ambulance crew. A DNR is a valid physician’s order to forgo resuscitative efforts. The DNR must be signed by a physician. If the EMS provider is unsure as to the validity of the DNR contact medical control for orders.
2. An advanced directive, otherwise known as a living will or health care directive is presented to the ambulance crew. An advanced directive is essentially a letter to a physician from the patient or responsible party outlining what care they wish to receive or not receive in the event they are incapacitated. To honor an advanced directive for a patient in cardiac arrest the EMS provider must:
• Verify that the advanced directive specifically states that the patient does not want resuscitation in the event of cardiac arrest.
• Contact medical control and explain the situation. The physician may give a DNR order based on the advanced directive.
3. Do not attempt resuscitation in the cardiac arrest patient with:
• Rigor Mortis.
• Livor Mortis (lividity).
• Decapitation.
• Injuries incompatible with life.
• Traumatic Asystole (ALS only).
4. EMS may discontinue resuscitative efforts in the event:
• The EMS crew is too exhausted to continue CPR, or
• 30 minutes of ALS resuscitation without producing a pulse, and
• Concurrence of medical control to discontinue resuscitation.
• Under direction of medical control.
11b101abn
New Member
vc859 said:
ALL domestics should be approached as high-risk, priority calls. Always.
Not to say that a code 3 response is required as that should be determined by policy and / or information given at the time of the call. To say, though, that a domestic, verbal or not, does not have all of the potential in the world to go sideways rapidly is disingenuous.
11b101abn said:
One hundred percent agreed. It's idiotic and naive to expect the information given to and from the dispatcher to be accurate. I can speak from EMS experience, where we roll up on what should be a minor trauma, and it's a cardiac arrest. Dispatchers (although they might think so
) are not perfect, and you need to take everything they say with a grain of salt. Not because they're screwing with you, but because they are A: Multi-tasking, and might forget something, and B: Don't always get accurate info, especially if it comes from a third party caller.
chrismartin1701
Member
i was unable to get anything from my dept staff as to our ISO score or the last time the plans were updated as we would normally cooperate with Covidien for the plans and they are giving us the cold shoulder. might have something to do with the drug bust that happened there where someone was caught with $50,000 worth of powdered Oxycodone a few months ago. since then their security has quadrupled and have been saying that "we'll never need you. our fire suppression system is 10 times better than any fire dept." so i dont know whats gonna happen. i was also unable to get the exact square mileage that we cover.
I'm not saying that domestics shouldn't be high priority, but like you said, I was questioning whether they all need a code 3 response; and also, questioning some departments that send 4 or 5 officers for a 8 year old who refuses to get out of bed to go to school.
Also the main point of this topic is about EMERGENCY services that seem to think nothing qualifies as an emergency anymore.
Whether it is a police department that won't run code 3 for anything less than a shooting/stabbing or officer needs help. (I have heard of some officers/departments than won't even go code 3 to a fight in progress, unless there are weapons involved)
Or a fire department that barely goes interior even on room and contents fires
Or EMS agencies who have turned "every second counts" into "minutes don't matter" (i.e. "running code 3 ONLY saves you 1 minute and 30 seconds on average" types)
Also the main point of this topic is about EMERGENCY services that seem to think nothing qualifies as an emergency anymore.
Whether it is a police department that won't run code 3 for anything less than a shooting/stabbing or officer needs help. (I have heard of some officers/departments than won't even go code 3 to a fight in progress, unless there are weapons involved)
Or a fire department that barely goes interior even on room and contents fires
Or EMS agencies who have turned "every second counts" into "minutes don't matter" (i.e. "running code 3 ONLY saves you 1 minute and 30 seconds on average" types)
vc859 said:
Wow this sounds like a repeat from a thread I replied to months ago.. Anyone able to dig that one up?
Also how long you been fighting fires for? there are very sound reasons you don't run into a building on fires..
I'm guessing you're talking about vollies with this one? Here, Australia and more specifically Canberra, NO ONE responds in POV. And not every vollie, Ambo, fire or police is cleared for urgent duty, response, driving. Heck some of the vehicles are not cleared for urgent duty, they run lights and sirens but can't run at high speed due to safety reasons.vc859 said:
WS224
Member
unlisted said:
There are also good reasons to go in them. To not go in any because there probably isn't anyone in there, if there is they are already dead, you think the building might fall down, because it's scary, etc. is exactly what I despise - "firefighters" and chiefs who look for more reasons to not do their job because they lack the actual knowledge and balls that the job requires.
WS224 said:
Yea uhm.. Did I say that? No, I said there are some very sound reasons. Of course the building has to be cleared, etc. However with the more modern building materials, its pretty much going to be a loss before a fire dept even arrives on scene with the speed materials/structure burns.
Lack of knowledge? Uhm, quite the opposite. Balls to do the job has nothing to do with it.
Life is far greater than property. Property can be replaced/rebuilt- life cannot.