Changing state law (emergency vehicles)

[FSEP]

Ok, so lets say, hypothetically here... I may or may not of made a move to try to change the emergency vehicle laws in my state... And it may or may not of be picking up some speed... Does anyone have any suggestions.. pointers.. extra pair of balls I could barrow?


Now to the serious part. There are 2 things I'm trying to change.


Firstly, our "move over law". While in theory, it is a great law and has helped... It's effectiveness has been less then desirable. Individuals still speed past our apparatus, go in between cones, or drive on the shoulder when we have the road shut down. Now you'd think with the state pushing this law every chance they can, with giant road signs, radio adds and tv commercials, people would feel the need to move, if only for the fear of getting a huge fine... I mean, its the fine that stops most people from doing stupid stuff...


This is where I the issue of effectiveness comes into play.. If you fail to yield to emergency vehicles, or pull to the left and slow down, you will fined to death for a total of: $25.


What I would like to change is:


1. Raising the fine amount to $500 (tehehe)


2. Mandatory Court appearance


3. Allow Fire Police to issue summons for this traffic violation.





The second issue is this: pov emergency lights for first responders. Currently, vollies use wigwags as our courtesy light. and 4 ways "unofficially".. However, line officers and fire police can use blue lights, just without a siren. So in order to get past this bs, this is what I propose.


All volunteer firefighters and EMT's who meet the requirements below may use flashing red lights 360 and siren:


1. Be a member of a dually recognized fire or ems department/company or rescue squad that is in good standing with the DVFA for 1 year


2. Be in good standing with their represented fire or ems department/company or rescue squad, along with the DVFA


3. If a firefighter, completed Delaware FF1 (basic, structural, vehicle rescue, hazmat response, CPR/AED) or if an EMT completed EMT-B and intro to emergency services.


4. Pass the state EVO and EVO practical course


5. Receive the state EVO license


6. No more then 8 points currently on their license


7. No DUI within the last 7 years


8. No MVC where the firefighter/emt was found at fault and cause physical damage to another party within the last 5 years


9. Use 360 lighting


10. Must have fire or ems identification, either by words or symbols on the front and rear of the vehicle, with the front having the name of represented department shown.


11. In order to retain re-cert, you must take a refresher course every 3 years.


So what do you guys think?


Edit:


1. Per Delaware code, EV drivers must use due regard while responding, so including this would be redundant.


2. I have already talked to my state rep/sen and they have agreed with me on many of these points.


3. Per Deaware code, in order to get your current EVO license, you must have signed documentation by your chief authorizing it.


4. Edits have been made above.

 

[WS224]

Ok, so lets say, hypothetically here... I may or may not of made a move to try to change the emergency vehicle laws in my state... And it may or may not of be picking up some speed... Does anyone have any suggestions.. pointers.. extra pair of balls I could barrow?

Now to the serious part. There are 2 things I'm trying to change.


Firstly, our "move over law". While in theory, it is a great law and has helped... It's effectiveness has been less then desirable. Individuals still speed past our apparatus, go in between cones, or drive on the shoulder when we have the road shut down. Now you'd think with the state pushing this law every chance they can, with giant road signs, radio adds and tv commercials, people would feel the need to move, if only for the fear of getting a huge fine... I mean, its the fine that stops most people from doing stupid stuff...


This is where I the issue of effectiveness comes into play.. If you fail to yield to emergency vehicles, or pull to the left and slow down, you will fined to death for a total of: $25.


What I would like to change is raising the fine amount to $300 (tehehe) and allow Fire Police to issue summons for this traffic violation.


The second issue is this: pov emergency lights for first responders. Currently, vollies use wigwags as our courtesy light. and 4 ways "unofficially".. However, line officers and fire police can use blue lights, just without a siren. So in order to get past this bs, this is what I propose.


All volunteer firefighters and EMT's who meet the requirements below may use flashing red lights 360 and siren:


-Be a member of a dually recognized fire or ems department/company or rescue squad that is in good standing with the DVFA for 1 year


-Be in good standing with their represented fire or ems department/company or rescue squad, along with the DVFA


-If a firefighter, completed Delaware FF1 (basic, structural, vehicle rescue, hazmat response, CPR/AED) or if an EMT completed EMT-B and intro to emergency services.


-Pass the state EVO and EVO practical course


-Receive the state EVO license


-No more then 8 points currently on their license


-No DUI within the last 7 years


-No MVC where the firefighter/emt was found at fault and cause physical damage to another party within the last 5 years


-Use 360 lighting


-Must have fire or ems identification, either by words or symbols on the front and rear of the vehicle, with the front having the name of represented department shown.


In order to retain re-cert, you must take a refresher course every 3 years.


So what do you guys think?

No comment on your 2nd point other than good luck.


As to your first, your state may be different, but what I see is a lack of enforcement. The fine could be $1000, it doesn't matter if it isn't enforced.

 

[AKRLTW]

Concur on the enforcement.


Sure would be nice if LE that was enroute to a fire call would worry about staying behind apparatus and ticketing people vs trying to beat trucks to the call. Traffic control is nice, but I've got a PA to tell people to move if they're in the way at a scene.

 

[FSEP]

No comment on your 2nd point other than good luck.

As to your first, your state may be different, but what I see is a lack of enforcement. The fine could be $1000, it doesn't matter if it isn't enforced.

I agree, a lack of enforcement is an issue. However, that is an interagency issue that must be handled as such, the general assembly has no real authority in regards to that.

 

[MESDA6]

I believe that our Move Over Law in IL (Scott's Law) contains a mandatory court appearance. You can't just pay the ticket and be done with it. I think it adds some teeth to the law. Here's the Media Flyer -




Download the file

 

[chief1562]

I'd say this is a little weak. Being you only get a moving violation.


New York's Move Over Law Has Changed


Effective January 1, 2012


Protects law enforcement officers, emergency workers, tow and service vehicle operators and other maintenance workers stopped along roadways while performing their duties.


•Drivers must use due care when approaching an emergency vehicle that displays red and/or white emergency lighting: ◦On all roads and highways, drivers must reduce speed;


•On Parkways and other controlled access highways with multiple lanes, when approaching an emergency vehicle that displays red and/or white emergency lighting or a hazard vehicle displaying flashing amber lighting, drivers must move from the lane immediately adjacent to the emergency or hazard vehicle, unless traffic or other hazards exist to prevent doing so safely.


Penalties:


•Violations of this law are punishable as a moving violation.

 

[FSEP]

I believe that our Move Over Law in IL (Scott's Law) contains a mandatory court appearance. You can't just pay the ticket and be done with it. I think it adds some teeth to the law. Here's the Media Flyer -




Download the file

hmmm I like that a lot, thank you.

 

[FSEP]

I'd say this is a little weak. Being you only get a moving violation.

New York's Move Over Law Has Changed


Effective January 1, 2012


Protects law enforcement officers, emergency workers, tow and service vehicle operators and other maintenance workers stopped along roadways while performing their duties.


•Drivers must use due care when approaching an emergency vehicle that displays red and/or white emergency lighting: ◦On all roads and highways, drivers must reduce speed;


•On Parkways and other controlled access highways with multiple lanes, when approaching an emergency vehicle that displays red and/or white emergency lighting or a hazard vehicle displaying flashing amber lighting, drivers must move from the lane immediately adjacent to the emergency or hazard vehicle, unless traffic or other hazards exist to prevent doing so safely.


Penalties:


•Violations of this law are punishable as a moving violation.

I agree, that is a little weak. Granted, in Delaware if you hit (with a car) a first responder while they're on scene, you'd be changed with a class F felony, but that doesn't help much for everything else in between.

 

[NPS Ranger]

I agree, that is a little week. Granted, if you hit (with a car) a first responder here while there on scene your changed with a class F felony, but that doesn't help much for everything else in between.

I think you have managed to set some sort of record there.

 

[FSEP]

I think you have managed to set some sort of record there.

This is what I get for posting right after I wake up. :duh:

 

[NPS Ranger]

This is what I get for posting right after I wake up. :duh:

:thumbsup:

 

[bwoodruff]

I'd love to see the proposed changes come to NY as well. Some EMS agencies in NY (one I can think of in particular) already have a "loophole" to get their volunteers L&S, but no such loophole exists for fire departments.

 

[vc859]

There technically is a loophole in NYS for that, but it is rarely used.


Basically the rule is that for a fire vehicle to be authorized as an emergency vehicle it has to be operated by a chief officer or owned by the fire department.


So the loophole is to sell your vehicle to the fire department for something like $1.00 and then have the FD "lease" it back to you without conditions.


I guess another loophole is that there is no restriction on the number of "chief officers" a fire department can have. So technically a department can have a Chief, Assistant Chiefs, Duty Chiefs, Chief of Fire Police, Chief of Extrication, Chief of Suppression, Chief of Prevention...repeat until everyone you want to have RLS does

 

[FSEP]

There technically is a loophole in NYS for that, but it is rarely used.

Basically the rule is that for a fire vehicle to be authorized as an emergency vehicle it has to be operated by a chief officer or owned by the fire department.


So the loophole is to sell your vehicle to the fire department for something like $1.00 and then have the FD "lease" it back to you without conditions.


I guess another loophole is that there is no restriction on the number of "chief officers" a fire department can have. So technically a department can have a Chief, Assistant Chiefs, Duty Chiefs, Chief of Fire Police, Chief of Extrication, Chief of Suppression, Chief of Prevention...repeat until everyone you want to have RLS does

Now that I think about it, Delaware has a similar loop hole however, I've never seen it used except in the most extreme circumstances. I don't think general assembly or DVFA would take to kindly if we all did that here, sadly. Though, they are the ones who created this problem so.

 

[firefighter7017]

Now that I think about it, Delaware has a similar loop hole however, I've never seen it used except in the most extreme circumstances. I don't think general assembly or DVFA would take to kindly if we all did that here, sadly. Though, they are the ones who created this problem so.

I suppose you could do the same thing in North Carolina. Never thought of it that way.

 

[CHIEFOPS]

" 3. Allow Fire Police to issue summons for this traffic violation.








All volunteer firefighters and EMT's who meet the requirements below may use flashing red lights 360 and siren:


1. Be a member of a dually recognized fire or ems department/company or rescue squad that is in good standing with the DVFA for 1 year





8. No MVC where the firefighter/emt was found at fault and cause physical damage to another party within the last 5 years "


You may wish to reconsider the 3 specific points above, below are my thoughts.


I don't believe placing unarmed personnel in an enforcement posture is a good idea.


I don't see why an agency's probationary standing in the DVFA should render it's personnel second-class citizens when it comes to response/at-scene safety.


I don't see why a single at-fault MVC in the member's background in that time frame should render him a second-class citizen when it comes to response/at-scene safety.

 

[FSEP]

" 3. Allow Fire Police to issue summons for this traffic violation.






All volunteer firefighters and EMT's who meet the requirements below may use flashing red lights 360 and siren:


1. Be a member of a dually recognized fire or ems department/company or rescue squad that is in good standing with the DVFA for 1 year





8. No MVC where the firefighter/emt was found at fault and cause physical damage to another party within the last 5 years "


You may wish to reconsider the 3 specific points above, below are my thoughts.


I don't believe placing unarmed personnel in an enforcement posture is a good idea.


I don't see why an agency's probationary standing in the DVFA should render it's personnel second-class citizens when it comes to response/at-scene safety.


I don't see why a single at-fault MVC in the member's background in that time frame should render him a second-class citizen when it comes to response/at-scene safety.

Fire Police already have limited peace officer authority and can detain anyone on scene and write sommons for failure to obey their orders. Granted, that doesn't happen often. What I was picturing was them getting the plate number then mailing the citation or getting the local/state police to help issue the ticket at the car owners house. Again, like it happens already.


For the second point, I will agree with. I should change it do DFPC (Delaware fire prevention commision) since they handle the majority of issues with fire departments in Delaware.


I agree, but to some extent some sort of limitation should be place on those who have caused several accidents. It's a just a fine line that has to walked on. But if anyone has any suggestions, that would be great.

 

[chief1562]

There technically is a loophole in NYS for that, but it is rarely used.

Basically the rule is that for a fire vehicle to be authorized as an emergency vehicle it has to be operated by a chief officer or owned by the fire department.


So the loophole is to sell your vehicle to the fire department for something like $1.00 and then have the FD "lease" it back to you without conditions.


I guess another loophole is that there is no restriction on the number of "chief officers" a fire department can have. So technically a department can have a Chief, Assistant Chiefs, Duty Chiefs, Chief of Fire Police, Chief of Extrication, Chief of Suppression, Chief of Prevention...repeat until everyone you want to have RLS does

As for this statement in can be put in the bylaws and regs how many a chiefs a department can have. And can be changed at anytime by the majority of the members after in has been disscussed at the meeting.


7 years ago the department I was in changed the cheifs structure from Chief-61,Deputy Chief-62,1st. Asst. Chief-63,2nd.Asst.Chief-64,3rd. Asst.Chief-64,4th.Asst.Chief/Fire Police-65,and Last 5 Asst.Deputy Chief/Safety Officer-66.


Now it's Chief-61,1st.Asst.Chief-62,and 2nd. Asst.Chief-63,and Safety Officer is designated at scene. And that is why my name is Chief1565 I was retired when this was instituted.

 

[firefighter7017]

I'm going to play devils advocate here. If I were your representative, I would ask the following questions;


1. Do you have any data showing that running lights and sirens to a call makes you safer and saves time during response?


2. Do you have a constituency of firefighters and fire chiefs that back your cause, or is this just you wanting to put L&S on your car?


3. Who is liable for any accidents that occur while running code? The firefighter's insurance, or the departments insurance?


4. Who is responsible for inspecting the vehicles to make sure they are compliant, and who's paying for it?


I understand your reasoning for wanting to change the law, but I am a firefighter, your rep's are not. Your going to have to walk them through this step by step for them to put their name on this piece of legislation, showing them that there is a need for such legislation and that the majority of fire department members support this.

 

[mcpd2025]

In reference to the Move Over Law, I think enforcement should include a 50 caliber mounted gun in a turret on top of ALL apparatus. Train your Fire Police officer to shoot out the engine block of anyone who fails to move over in time. For locales that find that a little too aggressive or expensive, perhaps a very large and brightly colored spike strip that can be used to "influence" drivers to move over. Place a HUGE sign that announces the presence of the spike strip in the roadway. If the cost of replacing the spike strip gets to be too high perhaps you can just provide the Fire Police officer a monthly allowance of old heavy bolts. Every a$$hole that comes zipping by the apparatus can have a rusty old bolt thrown at their windshield.


Any one of those ideas will get free word of mouth about the move over law (education) and will encourage drivers to respect the law (enforcement), which are the two most important aspects of a new law.


Maryland recently enacted a Move Over Law that requires drivers to move a full lane over from a stopped emergency vehicle OR reduce speed significantly. My county, though, has ZERO signs advising of this law. Howard County to the east and Frederick County to the north have signs on major highways announcing this law, but NONE in my jurisdiction. I have requested numerous times to county roads and state roads for the signage, but still nothing. I pull people over for it all the time and NONE of them are aware of the law. Then when we get to court, they tell the judge they didn't know it was a law. For the record, ignorance of the law is not a legal defense. That being said, the liberal judges in my jurisdiction usually drop the charges cause the driver didn't know it was illegal.

 

[chief1562]

Until they are on the side of the road for any number of reason's and gets plowed into because the idiot's didn't slow down or move over or didn't see em.


P.S. flare's work great when throw at cars. Not that at i would do it. :-x

 

[vc859]

As a fire police officer I agree with the idea about spike strips, especially to have as a second line of defense behind our cones for the people that don't know what ROAD CLOSED means

 

[FSEP]

As a fire police officer I agree with the idea about spike strips, especially to have as a second line of defense behind our cones for the people that don't know what ROAD CLOSED means

1. Landmine road flares?


2. The more I think about it, the idea of spike strips behind cones actually seems like a good idea.

 

[firefighter7017]

1. Landmine road flares?

2. The more I think about it, the idea of spike strips behind cones actually seems like a good idea.

Landmine road flares.......I like the way you think.

 

[calebsheltonmed23]

Traffic control is nice, but I've got a PA to tell people to move if they're in the way at a scene.

Do ya'll not have air horns?? :crazy:

 

[elite907]

We have had the move over or slow down law here for a few years.


And I see cars and semi trucks all the time not obeying this 95% of the time.


I think it should be an automatic license suspension & a $500 fine.


Driving around a road closure and or apparatus should be suspension and a $1500 fine.


And if you can't pay it by the time you go to court,Then it should be an automatic 30 days in jail.