CHP Arrests Fireman For Not Moving Engine

[crescentstar69]

Interesting. I'm guessing there is more to the story. The officer might want to keep in mind who may be responding to help him some day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_gA2ASVDgY&feature=player_embedded

 

[RES347CUE]

You are reading this more and more in the news , it is not done to impead traffic it is done for saftey reasons


unreal

 

[unlisted]

Hmm.. car traveling northbound, hit center median and flipped, wound up inside center median.. (double crash barriers between NB/SB).. and PD didn't like a fire truck blocking lane 1 on SB side? I would of blocked it as well... There is people working in the center median!

 

[K9Vic]

Remember what happened in this case, the officer was forced to pay $17,500 in damaged to the Fire Fighter. It is just stupid to not have a fire truck block for safety, I hope the same happens to that CHP officer.

 

[Phillyrube]

One of my PD legacies was teaching officers that Fire and EMS could take as many lanes as they want, until they are done.


I had a run in with a state trooper one night, on an accident. Rolled our squad truck onto the interstate , pulled up on the scene, blocked the accident lane and the next lane over. Fire came up behind me and blocked. Ambulance came around me and started to work. patient to be backboarded, so I remained in the lane. Trooper comes up, banging on the truck doors, saying to free up the lane. I told him I couldn't, they were pulling the patient out and the crew was standing in the lane he wanted to open. Again he said to move. Again I said about 5 minutes. Trooper then gets REAL huffy, says if I don't move the truck now he will arrest me. I exited the truck, put out my hands and said OK. He stomps off to his car.


5 minutes later, EMS is done, I move the squad, and then walk back to the trooper's car and show him my PD detective shield. I told him you can't arrest for that charge, all you can do is write the summons, and then if I don't sign it, you can arrest me. He blows up, stating that I embarrassed him. Excuuuuse me? You embarrassed yourself. A lot of people know the law, and coping that attitude will get him in trouble.


To their credit, VSP doesn't bother with Fire and EMS. Personally, speaking as a cop, I sorta like that 20 ton traffic cone.

 

[crescentstar69]

The common thread seems to be state officers, who have had it drummed into their heads to keep that highway moving at all costs. Closed highways do cost big bucks, but you can't replace public safety workers lives.


I am by no means bashing the troopers, either. Having been police, fire, EMS, and even a coroner's investigator, I have seen all sides. Safety has to come first.

 

[cybercop]

The way I see it is if the FD wants to block off a lane with their huge ass red truck with fancy lights, so be it, that less traffic control for me and won't have to worry about me or my unit being hit by some rubber necker.


Edit: If it is a bunch of volly's responding to the scene in their pov with their blinkies going and parking whereever they feel like, I will tell them to move their vehicles somewhere off the roadway

 

[Marvin]

wow that is crazy.

 

[PJD642]

Coming from someone who pulls their cruiser in front of the violator's car when I take the dog to a sniff (because I don't want to be the last in line when some jackoff swerves into the rear car), I have no problem with hosers blocking off as many lanes as they feel like blocking.

 

[K9Vic]

Here is the statement from the CHP about this issue after he meet with the Chula Vista Fire Chief Dave Hanneman.


To me it sounds like Chief Jim Abele does not approve what that CHP Officer did by detaining the Firefighter. If the goal is safety, using a fire truck to bock is making it safe. I doubt that CHP Officer was thinking very well when he cuffed that Firefighter with news camera rolling. What did he think the public would through him a parade for that? Just stupid even if the cameras were not there.


This is not a news article quote, it is public informational quote from the Chief Jim Abele of the CHP.

"Last night there was an unfortunate incident at the scene of a traffic collision on I-805, where both our agencies had responded. Both the CHP and the Chula Vista Fire Department share a common goal of protecting the public and providing the highest level of safety to responding emergency personnel, involved parties and other drivers at collision scenes.

Both of our agencies have the utmost respect for each other and our respective missions. This was an isolated incident and not representative of the manner in which our agencies normally work together toward our common goal.


This morning representatives from both agencies met to discuss the incident to improve communication and ensure the highest level of service is provided to the public. This incident will be a topic of future joint training sessions, in an ongoing effort to work more efficiently together."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0dbpXSywDg

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I like that the chief of the CHP is looking like he is going to own this one. I admire a public official who stands up and admits in basic terms, "yeah, or guy screwed up, we admit it, we're sorry and we're gonna take steps to try and not let this one happen again."

 

[Hoff]

We don't mess with fire on base. If the fire chief wants to shut the highway down... go for it. For MAJOR incidents fire chief is IC. I'm good with it. They usually stay out of LE realm and we stay out of the fire realm. Grant we are a little different on bases. As for the incident, throwing bracelets on a FF that is working a scene is full of dumbassery. If it was such a big deal, the moment the victim is stable and/or transported he should form an informal complaint with the truck captain and then if it is still a deal have "his people" talk to "their people" about keeping lanes open, safety, traffic flow, apple pies, etc. I don't like the general public's comments on various social media sites about this being more "militarization" of civilian cops. Shockingly uninformed people out there. Also if the local PD's ran their departments like the military they would be at the station 10 of 12 hours filling out paperwork!

 

[minig0d]

This is just bad looking all the way you cut it. I don't think CHP has a choice but to own it. No matter the reason.


I agree from a LE perspective. I've seen many cruisers struck on side of the interstate. I've never seen a fire engine struck but I imagine it can take a hell of a lot more impact then a car weighing 5% of its weight. Just flat out common sense. Someone has to block the road and if the FF wants to do it, feel free!

 

[mcpd2025]

Wow... I'm confused. What did the officer accomplish by placing the firefighter in handcuffs? Completely boneheaded move. I was expecting some young stupid officer and an older firefighter... I was astonished to see a young firefighter (who handled himself exceptionally well under those circumstances, by the way) and an older officer (though we don't know how long he has been a cop).


In my area, I'm not 100% certain who has official "command" on a car wreck. On one hand its an investigation and traffic problem, so it is a police issue. On the other hand it is a medical problem, so it is a fire issue. Regardless, we are a public safety TEAM and we should be working together.


We know the firefighters are already humbled because they couldn't pass the test to be cops, so there is no need for use to stick our chests out and start problems on scenes. Work TOGETHER and the situation gets resolved more quickly, more cleanly and more professionally. Nobody is on the news made to look like an idiot. The firefighters get to go back to the house and go to sleep and keep dreaming of the day they are smart enough to become cops. The cops get to go back to saving the world. Its a win-win situation.

 

[jdh]

OK...the fire fighter that was arrested. He is the engineer, correct. Does he not follow the orders of the LT. or brass higher up? My point is if he is following orders from his LT. then he did his job. I figured if CHP was going to arrest someone wouldn't common sense dictate arresting the higher ranking fire official.

 

[rwo978]

I shake my head every time I see these stories... At no time would I ever tell a FF how to do his job, or where to put equipment. I may ask a question, but would never go to this extent... We all have to work TOGETHER.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

In my area, I'm not 100% certain who has official "command" on a car wreck. On one hand its an investigation and traffic problem, so it is a police issue. On the other hand it is a medical problem, so it is a fire issue. Regardless, we are a public safety TEAM and we should be working together.

When I was in the explorers program, or city had a clear cut establishment of command. So long as there was an active fire issue (medical emergency, HAZMAT spill, fire, etc.) Fire had command. No questions asked. Once all of their job was done, the scene was turned over to PD. Fire got the job done as fast as possible, then got out of the PD's way. We had a great working relationship.

 

[mcpd2025]

When I was in the explorers program, or city had a clear cut establishment of command. So long as there was an active fire issue (medical emergency, HAZMAT spill, fire, etc.) Fire had command. No questions asked. Once all of their job was done, the scene was turned over to PD. Fire got the job done as fast as possible, then got out of the PD's way. We had a great working relationship.

In our area, the fire department handles everything about the fire. They put it out, they investigate if it is suspicious, etc. Unless the fire was set to cover up another crime, police do not get involved at all. Our job is scene safety and traffic control if necessary. Our police and fire departments get along pretty well. It is not uncommon to have officers help out on firegrounds, moving equipment, hauling ladders, etc.


Car wrecks are different though. If it is a fatal and the guy is already dead, I have the authority to keep fireboard away (provided the patient has already been pronounced and there are no other victims. We have had a couple of fatal wrecks over the years where the volunteers (combo paid/volunteer system in Montgomery County) wanted to go look at the dead bodies and were damaging the crime scene for no legitimate purpose. Those incidents are rare and usually handled on scene with the senior guy on police side talking with the senior guy on fire side. However, fireboard needs to realize that once the patient is dead, they no longer need medical care. Leave them alone, don't mess with evidence on the scene. Serious injury/entrapment, obviously the priority is to protect life first, so fireboard has complete and total reign (although we hope they don't destroy ALL the evidence in doing so). Generally speaking we don't ever have issues with our fire department.


Where it can get murky is minor injuries. Yes... the patient is injured. No... its not life threatening. There has to be a level of professional respect across the board. Fire's job is to safely extract any injured parties. Police's job is to investigate the wreck and open the road as soon as practicable. If the guy has already been outside the car and walked back over and sat back inside when fireboard arrives... do we really need to cut the doors/roof/hood/trunk off? I have actually seen wrecks where the Squad guys find the driver standing outside the car and have them sit back in the car so they can "extract" them. Really??? If it ever gets to the point that fire is going out of their way to muck up traffic, slow down the police response, intentionally cause way more damage than necessary to the crime scene, then the bosses need to get together and sort things out. If it gets to the point that the police aren't letting fire take reasonable precautions and perform reasonable care to the patient, then the bosses need to get together and sort things out.


Either way, this looks embarrassing for police.

 

[JazzDad]

Good resource: Emergency, Responders, Safety, National Unified Goal for Traffic Incident Management, NUG


Free courses. Take them. That it all.

 

[Core Public Safety]

Rule #1: The big red truck parks wherever it wants to park.


Rule #2: See rule #1

 

[JPolston]

In most places, FD has control of the scene until they give it up. Period. PD can request that apparatus be moved, and most of the time there is no reason for the thing NOT to be moved, which normally has the FD scene commander telling someone to move it. There is NO reason the engine should have been moved. There is NO reason the LEO should have been arguing with the firefighter as he is TENDING TO A PT. And by all means there is no reason the FF should have ended up in cuffs, even after the cussing and name calling that I'm sure ensued after the firefighter told the LEO to shut up as he worked.


I have never had anything close to this happen. I've seen LEOs get pissed, I've seen FD scene commanders get pissed, but in the end, even after arguing matches, it ends reasonably peaceful with the FD maintaining their position until we turn over control.


I personally believe the LEO should be suspended without pay for an amount of time for hindering PT care, then possibly longer pending an investigation of the event. This could be shrugged off if there hadn't of been PT care going on, even if the engine had been parked strategically for defense.


I don't know, maybe I'm in the wrong. I probably don't know all the details. I may just be an ignorant 24 year old who's overly opinionated. I just think this is beyond stupid on the LEOs part. Yes I'm sure the firefighter called the LEO every name under the sun other than his birth name. It's just the fact PT care was being done. PT care, PT care, PT care. And I'm pretty sure the engine was in a defensive position.


P.S.: PT CARE!!!!

 

[Doug]

The way I see it is if the FD wants to block off a lane with their huge ass red truck with fancy lights, so be it, that less traffic control for me and won't have to worry about me or my unit being hit by some rubber necker.

Edit: If it is a bunch of volly's responding to the scene in their pov with their blinkies going and parking whereever they feel like, I will tell them to move their vehicles somewhere off the roadway

When I've responded POV (and now in a departmental SUV), only a little bit of thought is needed to tell me to pull past the scene and park downstream and out of traffic.

 

[kitn1mcc]

When I've responded POV (and now in a departmental SUV), only a little bit of thought is needed to tell me to pull past the scene and park downstream and out of traffic.

around here most of the DEPT have Fire police who handle Traffic control even on the highway. The CSP just does not have resources in some of the out of the way area's here in ct and it is not uncommon to see a line of POV light up going up the shoulder.

 

[jswwjw]

Everyone steps on their toes (insert word there) and this is a clear case of "contempt of cop". I'm sure his supervisor (while in route to the scene) was muttering some expletives about his officer. IMHO a public apology is needed and deserved.


I would. They won't. Too much pride.


We we had a similar "toes stepped on" where a deputy would not allow an elderly couple (with their wheelchair bound son) onto a closed street (for mardi gras parade). I interceded, escorted them to their home and went 10-8. 3 months later real nice letter to the Sheriff from them.


Sometimes error on the side of compassion and common sense is really the best route.


Just my cents.

 

[FireEMSPolice]

I know of a firefighter who was arrested because he moved a Deputy's cruiser to get the fire truck out of the way so they could leave the scene. The Deputy was asked several times to move it so they could clear the scene and didnt do it. So, the firefighter climbed in and moved it about 5 feet. When the Deputy realized it was moved, he got pissed, started demanding to know who moved it and when the firefighter admitted it was him, the Deputy started jamming his fingers in to the firefighters chest then arrested him. Needless to say, the firefighter sued and got a decent payday.

 

[mcpd2025]

I know of a firefighter who was arrested because he moved a Deputy's cruiser to get the fire truck out of the way so they could leave the scene. The Deputy was asked several times to move it so they could clear the scene and didnt do it. So, the firefighter climbed in and moved it about 5 feet. When the Deputy realized it was moved, he got pissed, started demanding to know who moved it and when the firefighter admitted it was him, the Deputy started jamming his fingers in to the firefighters chest then arrested him. Needless to say, the firefighter sued and got a decent payday.

Sounds like an unauthorized use of a vehicle, a misdemeanor offense. Its an arrestable offense in Maryland, not sure if it is where this incident occurred or not. If you commit a crime and get arrested, not too sure how you sue and win...

 

[Turd Ferguson]

In our area, the fire department handles everything about the fire. They put it out, they investigate if it is suspicious, etc. Unless the fire was set to cover up another crime, police do not get involved at all. Our job is scene safety and traffic control if necessary. Our police and fire departments get along pretty well. It is not uncommon to have officers help out on firegrounds, moving equipment, hauling ladders, etc.

Car wrecks are different though. If it is a fatal and the guy is already dead, I have the authority to keep fireboard away (provided the patient has already been pronounced and there are no other victims. We have had a couple of fatal wrecks over the years where the volunteers (combo paid/volunteer system in Montgomery County) wanted to go look at the dead bodies and were damaging the crime scene for no legitimate purpose. Those incidents are rare and usually handled on scene with the senior guy on police side talking with the senior guy on fire side. However, fireboard needs to realize that once the patient is dead, they no longer need medical care. Leave them alone, don't mess with evidence on the scene. Serious injury/entrapment, obviously the priority is to protect life first, so fireboard has complete and total reign (although we hope they don't destroy ALL the evidence in doing so). Generally speaking we don't ever have issues with our fire department.


Where it can get murky is minor injuries. Yes... the patient is injured. No... its not life threatening. There has to be a level of professional respect across the board. Fire's job is to safely extract any injured parties. Police's job is to investigate the wreck and open the road as soon as practicable. If the guy has already been outside the car and walked back over and sat back inside when fireboard arrives... do we really need to cut the doors/roof/hood/trunk off? I have actually seen wrecks where the Squad guys find the driver standing outside the car and have them sit back in the car so they can "extract" them. Really??? If it ever gets to the point that fire is going out of their way to muck up traffic, slow down the police response, intentionally cause way more damage than necessary to the crime scene, then the bosses need to get together and sort things out. If it gets to the point that the police aren't letting fire take reasonable precautions and perform reasonable care to the patient, then the bosses need to get together and sort things out.


Either way, this looks embarrassing for police.

In Washington, the state fire marshals office is attached to the state patrol.

 

[FSEP]

Sounds like an unauthorized use of a vehicle, a misdemeanor offense. Its an arrestable offense in Maryland, not sure if it is where this incident occurred or not. If you commit a crime and get arrested, not too sure how you sue and win...

If FD was in command and the LEO decide not to listen, then he (LEO) is actually breaking the law in Delaware... Then arresting the guy that had to do your job because you refused to... Thats like spitting in your own face...

 

[twodogs603]

Every dept has an ass in it. I remember years ago none of the fire apparatus in my and a few neighboring cities never had license plates. Don't know why, but I guess the powers to be felt they were needed. One day a trooper got his ass on his shoulders and stopped a fire truck and wrote the driver a ticket for no tags. Of course the judge laughed at the trooper and threw it out of court. And all apparatus got tags after that incident. But it sure created friction between the agencies for a while.


I am 110% pro police, but there is always those handful you just look at and shake your head. Some use their badge as a replacement for good common sense. Fortunately its only a few. For the most part I think most public safety agencies tolerate each other.

 

[Torpedo]

Sounds like an unauthorized use of a vehicle, a misdemeanor offense. Its an arrestable offense in Maryland, not sure if it is where this incident occurred or not. If you commit a crime and get arrested, not too sure how you sue and win...

This jogged my memory, I have a short unauthorized use of a vehicle story although off topic, my coffee hasn't kicked in yet so it's ok,...


1980 something I was a wrecker operator working an FHP arrest on the interstate. The Trooper and I were finishing up the tow report and here comes the cruiser and bashes into the violator's car at idle speed. At that time FHP put perps in the front passenger seat due to an extraordinary amount of rear seat mounted equipment. This happened to me more than once where the perp would either get the cuffs in front and/or kick the car into drive by other means. This was long before brake pedal/shifter interlocks. Could have killed us all. Thankfully the practice of front seat prisoners is no longer SOP for FHP. I do not know for sure if this involved more charges but my gut instinct thinks no paperwork or supervisors were involved. Kind of embarrassing for the Trooper (got parking brake?) and things were just different back then.

 

[canonninja]

Dallas Firefighter Killed After Being Thrown From Overpass | NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth


A reason I agree with fire 110% of the time... I myself have almost been hit by a drunk driving through a scene in the middle of the night, and this firefighter died a gruesome death from a similar incident :cry:

 

[Turd Ferguson]

On an unrelated note, the reporter in that story used to work at one of the local channels in Seattle.