Duty To Act? Negligence?

[mcpd2025]

You can't kill someone who's already dead. So why not at least try CPR. The off duty Leo made a pretty decent safety zone with his car. And I would of put patient care ahead of crowd control. Also I find it hard to believe she only had one pair of gloves in her entire vehicle. Leo's around here are first aid, cpr, and O2 trained and carry all of that along with a full box of gloves in there patrol cars. Over all I think that all Leo's should be at least first aid / cpr trained and shouldn't be afraid to use it.

Ok... you feel confident that the scene was safe based upon a nightime video from an in car camera that captures a small portion of the incident? Do you know if they were just over the crest of a hill, around a blind turn or in an intersection? How many lanes of traffic were there? What was the attitude of bystanders? Was it a police friendly part of town, or the part of town where they are likely to throw bottles at officers? You see, these are things that a police officer has to worry about on every call. That is on top of the need to investigate the collision, arrest any violators, provide aid, etc etc. I doubt you were really able to judge all that from the video...


Police officers in your little corner of the world are O2 certified and provided a full box of gloves at all times? That's cool. Around here we are CPR and basic first aid certified... that's it. The department technically provides gloves... but good luck finding ones the right size... let alone a full box all the time. I usually get my gloves off my local ambulance, who get their gloves from the supply closet at the hospital. I'm trained on stuff like an AED, but we don't carry it. You might be amazed at the level of first aid training at some departments. Lots of places don't have the time or money to train officers... that's why they have an ambulance and EMT's. Neither you nor I have ANY idea what type of training this officer has, nor how much of any particular equipment she is issued or had available to her at the time.


You see, there is usually more to the story than a simple news story captures. You are kinda new on this forum... I would encourage you to consider the possibilities and circumstances before jumping to conclusions.

 

[minig0d]

True only in part. People see suing as a solution for every problem.

Not to get too philosophical but that is the problem with our society as a whole... everyone wants an easy way out, something for free, a pill to fix a complicated problem, there is no self-responsibility, etc....


If people didn't try to sue over everything we could actually try things like CPR in good faith as Good Samaritan laws were intended.... until that gets fixed, unfortunately even first responders have families to go home to... :/ It's a sad thing that it has to be like that though....

 

[Kbonk15]

Ok... you feel confident that the scene was safe based upon a nightime video from an in car camera that captures a small portion of the incident? Do you know if they were just over the crest of a hill, around a blind turn or in an intersection? How many lanes of traffic were there? What was the attitude of bystanders? Was it a police friendly part of town, or the part of town where they are likely to throw bottles at officers? You see, these are things that a police officer has to worry about on every call. That is on top of the need to investigate the collision, arrest any violators, provide aid, etc etc. I doubt you were really able to judge all that from the video...


Police officers in your little corner of the world are O2 certified and provided a full box of gloves at all times? That's cool. Around here we are CPR and basic first aid certified... that's it. The department technically provides gloves... but good luck finding ones the right size... let alone a full box all the time. I usually get my gloves off my local ambulance, who get their gloves from the supply closet at the hospital. I'm trained on stuff like an AED, but we don't carry it. You might be amazed at the level of first aid training at some departments. Lots of places don't have the time or money to train officers... that's why they have an ambulance and EMT's. Neither you nor I have ANY idea what type of training this officer has, nor how much of any particular equipment she is issued or had available to her at the time.


You see, there is usually more to the story than a simple news story captures. You are kinda new on this forum... I would encourage you to consider the possibilities and circumstances before jumping to conclusions.

I wasn't jumping to conclusion, I was merely giving my ¢2 (which is what the OP asked for) based on what I saw. Also I'm sorry your department isn't as well funded or trained as the one in my "little corner of the world". Maybe you should spend some more time training or fighting for more money for supplies than trolling someone just giving there opinion.

 

[crescentstar69]

I guess we could send her one of these, and change the "off" to "on".

 

[unlisted]

 

[Travelin Man]

Also I'm sorry your department isn't as well funded or trained as the one in my "little corner of the world". Maybe you should spend some more time training or fighting for more money for supplies than trolling someone just giving there opinion.

His department has a budget of $250,000,000, approximately 1200 sworn officers, and protects nearly 1M people. It's not a matter of funding or training, it's a matter of how the emergency services delivery model works there.

 

[mcpd2025]

I wasn't jumping to conclusion, I was merely giving my ¢2 (which is what the OP asked for) based on what I saw. Also I'm sorry your department isn't as well funded or trained as the one in my "little corner of the world". Maybe you should spend some more time training or fighting for more money for supplies than trolling someone just giving there opinion.

<redacted>My department trains officers pretty well. We have Quik-clot and are trying to move to a newer version, it costs money to outfit and train 1200 officers though. We have Israeli dressings, we have tourniquets... we have decent training. In yearly inservice we receive Combat Casualty Training. We specifically train for active shooter incidents and shooting/stabbing/explosion type victims. We rely on fireboard to handle collision victims. We spend our limited time and dollars on training and equipment where fireboard will be staging and an officer or other victim may need immediate help that isn't coming from another agency.


Ideally we would have the time to cross train all of our police officers to do the job that fireboard does. Unfortunately that will put a LOT of county firefighters out of a career.


ON EDIT-


I read your post for a second time and agree with you that you made it clear you were offering an opinion. I initially found your post to be judgemental and accusatory and reacted as such. You did offer an opinion and I mistook your comments as being worse than they were. I would encourage you to consider that there is usually more to the story than is reported by the news. I apologize for overreacting, I was out of line with some of my comments.

 

[Kbonk15]

<redacted>My department trains officers pretty well. We have Quik-clot and are trying to move to a newer version, it costs money to outfit and train 1200 officers though. We have Israeli dressings, we have tourniquets... we have decent training. In yearly inservice we receive Combat Casualty Training. We specifically train for active shooter incidents and shooting/stabbing/explosion type victims. We rely on fireboard to handle collision victims. We spend our limited time and dollars on training and equipment where fireboard will be staging and an officer or other victim may need immediate help that isn't coming from another agency.

Ideally we would have the time to cross train all of our police officers to do the job that fireboard does. Unfortunately that will put a LOT of county firefighters out of a career.


ON EDIT-


I read your post for a second time and agree with you that you made it clear you were offering an opinion. I initially found your post to be judgemental and accusatory and reacted as such. You did offer an opinion and I mistook your comments as being worse than they were. I would encourage you to consider that there is usually more to the story than is reported by the news. I apologize for overreacting, I was out of line with some of my comments.

It's all good, sorry for snapping back at you, glad we were able to talk like gentleman instead of savages!


-Kevin

 

[firefighter112]

Over here, if I remember correctly, you can get in serious trouble for NOT rendering aid. It is required to have at a minimum a up to date first aid kit in your car at all times. As far as liability goes, I have to double check, but I do not think that you can be in the cross hairs if you do stop to render aid. I would expect if there are 2 officers on scene, that one take care of the victim, while the other one does scene security. I was not there, so I cannot pass judgement on what a media report says.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

Over here, if I remember correctly, you can get in serious trouble for NOT rendering aid. It is required to have at a minimum a up to date first aid kit in your car at all times. As far as liability goes, I have to double check, but I do not think that you can be in the cross hairs if you do stop to render aid. I would expect if there are 2 officers on scene, that one take care of the victim, while the other one does scene security. I was not there, so I cannot pass judgement on what a media report says.

I think my major hangup on the issue, from seeing the video and hearing about the incident, is that the off-duty officer WAS rendering aid to ONE of TWO victims. Therefore, one critical patient is getting no assistance whatsoever. To me, that is when the question of negligence comes into play. :twocents:

 

[CHIEFOPS]

I think my major hangup on the issue, from seeing the video and hearing about the incident, is that the off-duty officer WAS rendering aid to ONE of TWO victims. Therefore, one critical patient is getting no assistance whatsoever. To me, that is when the question of negligence comes into play. :twocents:

Basic triage and mass casualty incident principle calls for doing the best with you can with limited resources and not get overwhelmed by the situation- the Officer managed the scene while the off-duty first responder rendered aid alone until more help arrived.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

Basic triage and mass casualty incident principle calls for doing the best with you can with limited resources and not get overwhelmed by the situation- the Officer managed the scene while the off-duty first responder rendered aid alone until more help arrived.

Ok, lets continue with this Triage concept. Was this person immediately considered black tagged? When someone else is yelling "come help, theyre face down not breathing, and no pulse!!!", technically with MCI/triage concepts, yes. On the flip side, the responders at the time were NOT outnumbered by patient volume (2 patients, 2 responders), and I feel CPR COULD have been initiated.


People have been arguing about the minute percentage of traumatic arrest survivors, but, remember, to make that miniscule percentage, CPR STILL NEEDS TO BE PERFORMED, or else I highly doubt there would be any ROSC at all.


We are all entitled to our opinions, and I respect all the ones people have said here, lot of experience and wisdom talking, but my opinion differs, and I feel that there WAS action that could have been taken, and was not.

 

[FSEP]

Ok, lets continue with this Triage concept. Was this person immediately considered black tagged? When someone else is yelling "come help, theyre face down not breathing, and no pulse!!!", technically with MCI/triage concepts, yes. On the flip side, the responders at the time were NOT outnumbered by patient volume (2 patients, 2 responders), and I feel CPR COULD have been initiated.

People have been arguing about the minute percentage of traumatic arrest survivors, but, remember, to make that miniscule percentage, CPR STILL NEEDS TO BE PERFORMED, or else I highly doubt there would be any ROSC at all.


We are all entitled to our opinions, and I respect all the ones people have said here, lot of experience and wisdom talking, but my opinion differs, and I feel that there WAS action that could have been taken, and was not.

With your first statement, I'm curious to see if he was considered DOA and a list of what his injuries were. I haven't seen any news agencies post that information yet, sadly.


I agree that other actions COULD of taken place, but does that mean they SHOULD of taken place. As others have mentioned, PD's job on an MVC is very different that that of Fire/EMS. While I agree that ensuring all viable patients have a chance of survival should be treated, that doesn't necessarily make it the main priority for PD. Remember, PD's sole responsibly is to keep the peace and act as the arm of the executive branch to enforce the laws of the legislative branch.


Now, take a minute and read what I said again. It isn't meant to be cynical or heartless.. Rather, the above is what we are tasked to do.


To eliminate any threats to the general population (wheres the guy who did this, what did he do, how did he do it - Do I need to act defensively or offensively). To enforce the law (what happened, do I need to make an arrest right now, what information do I need right now - What would cause the lease harm in the long run). To secure the scene (wheres the evidence, is it being damaged, are there civilians within my scene that could hinder investigation - Balancing evidence recovery and other problems). What are the safety concerns (what do I need to be aware of, are their civilians near by, are their any potential deadly weapons around the area, what is traffic doing - Personal safety is always the NUMBER ONE concern - point blank, I'm not going to leave my family because of a stupid mistake). What information needs to be relayed (Number of patients and injuries, units on scene/what do I need, where the scene is, possible hazards, plate and vehicle information, suspect information).


Now, I'm not speaking for the officer, but the above are just SOME of the thoughts that run through my head and actions that I have to ensure take place as soon as possible. Because of this, I will not place judgment on this officer for failing to take that single action you mentioned within a 2 minute time frame.

 

[FSEP]

I keep forget to add this - I have been on FD and EMS calls where we (FD/EMS) have taken 0 OBVIOUS actions towards fire suppression/Rescue/Patient care for for over 2 minutes after arriving on scene...

 

[timlinson]

Ok, lets continue with this Triage concept. Was this person immediately considered black tagged? When someone else is yelling "come help, theyre face down not breathing, and no pulse!!!", technically with MCI/triage concepts, yes. On the flip side, the responders at the time were NOT outnumbered by patient volume (2 patients, 2 responders), and I feel CPR COULD have been initiated.

People have been arguing about the minute percentage of traumatic arrest survivors, but, remember, to make that miniscule percentage, CPR STILL NEEDS TO BE PERFORMED, or else I highly doubt there would be any ROSC at all.


We are all entitled to our opinions, and I respect all the ones people have said here, lot of experience and wisdom talking, but my opinion differs, and I feel that there WAS action that could have been taken, and was not.

I agree with Austin on the law enforcement side of it, and here is my side as a medical provider:


Earlier this month I responded to a train vs. car accident. The car had a male and a female, and was hit on the male's side, flipping it into the ditch. Total amount of responders were close to 15 for the local rescue, 3 paramedics (my partners and I with my SOP), plus a flight crew of a flight paramedic and flight nurse.


First thing we did was accessed the male's arm trying extricate. We didn't cut him out and do a full assessment. I felt no radial pulse and called him a black patient he was labeled with injuries inconsistent with life. We were then able to focus on the female, who was tagged as a red. She was cut out, stabilized, and flown out.


How's this matter? We had plenty of resources for 2 non-critical patients. Resuscitation of a patient is ATLEAST a 3-4 person procedure. Traumatic resuscitation will require a surgeon and blood infusion fast. This scene didn't have any of that.


Excepts to performing resuscitation:

Injuries not compatible with life. These include but are not necessarily limited to decapitation or other catastrophic brain trauma, incineration, severed body, and injuries that do not permit effective administration of CPR. If a patient is presenting with any of these conditions, it should be intuitively obvious that the patient is non-viable.

I spend literally DAYS teaching CPR. It's one of my big things. Like cops are hard on DUI, I'm hard on training CPR. EVERYONE gets it and honestly, I wouldn't have even attempted resuscitation in this scenario. Is that hard? Yes, but lots of things we do are hard. Focus on giving the living victim the best chance possible instead of wasting resources on a dead body.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

With your first statement, I'm curious to see if he was considered DOA and a list of what his injuries were. I haven't seen any news agencies post that information yet, sadly.

I agree that other actions COULD of taken place, but does that mean they SHOULD of taken place. As others have mentioned, PD's job on an MVC is very different that that of Fire/EMS. While I agree that ensuring all viable patients have a chance of survival should be treated, that doesn't necessarily make it the main priority for PD. Remember, PD's sole responsibly is to keep the peace and act as the arm of the executive branch to enforce the laws of the legislative branch.


Now, take a minute and read what I said again. It isn't meant to be cynical or heartless.. Rather, the above is what we are tasked to do.


To eliminate any threats to the general population (wheres the guy who did this, what did he do, how did he do it - Do I need to act defensively or offensively). To enforce the law (what happened, do I need to make an arrest right now, what information do I need right now - What would cause the lease harm in the long run). To secure the scene (wheres the evidence, is it being damaged, are there civilians within my scene that could hinder investigation - Balancing evidence recovery and other problems). What are the safety concerns (what do I need to be aware of, are their civilians near by, are their any potential deadly weapons around the area, what is traffic doing - Personal safety is always the NUMBER ONE concern - point blank, I'm not going to leave my family because of a stupid mistake). What information needs to be relayed (Number of patients and injuries, units on scene/what do I need, where the scene is, possible hazards, plate and vehicle information, suspect information).


Now, I'm not speaking for the officer, but the above are just SOME of the thoughts that run through my head and actions that I have to ensure take place as soon as possible. Because of this, I will not place judgment on this officer for failing to take that single action you mentioned within a 2 minute time frame.

Per their Department's Website:


Village of Pinecrest, Florida : Accreditation

The Pinecrest Police Department was awarded accreditation by the Commission on Accreditation for Law Enforcement Agencies (CALEA) on July 31, 2004.

Goals

• Strengthen crime prevention and control capabilities
  
• Formalize essential management procedures
  
• Establish fair and nondiscriminatory personnel practices
  
• Improve service-delivery
  
• Solidify interagency cooperation and coordination
  
• Boost citizen and staff confidence in the agency