fdny/nypd both on scene and accidentaly drop a car on a victim......yikes !!

Title thread went from


"fdny accidentaly drop a car on a victim......yikes !!"


to


"fdny/nypd both on scene and accidentaly drop a car on a victim......yikes !!"


even though it has been established this was NYPD ESU, and not FDNY.


How can you complain about media spin and then do it yourself, arguably much worse than they do.
 
i only changed the title b/c i was tired of hearing whiney people send me pms about the title.....


and i cannot change the title of the video,b/c its not my video, so stop sending me PM's about it........


and both agencys are to blame b/c both were present !!!!!!!!


and esu does have emts and medics !
 
the agency to blame is the one using the tool, you really think an ESU cop would listen to the FDNY officer? He acted on his own accord without instruction from the FDNY so clearly it was NYPD.
 
Dr. Dennis Stouffer said:
I just don't get it why NY has two competing services for rescue interventions. Maybe someone can explain. I understand ESU for dangerous police situations where LEO specialized training, equipment, and capabilities may be critical, but for traffic accidents? Do they have paramedics also? How about if NYFD has armed ffs (and I do not mean arson detectives) who respond to police calls just to help out?

I wonder this also! I just dont see the need for NYPD ESU to do a job that FDNY is already there to do.
 
ParkPiggy said:
I don't have 15 minutes to waste, trying to find where it drops in the video. Anyone have a time to forward to to see it?

Yes, please someone find where this happens and post. Thanks!
 
Dr. Dennis Stouffer said:
I just don't get it why NY has two competing services for rescue interventions. Maybe someone can explain. I understand ESU for dangerous police situations where LEO specialized training, equipment, and capabilities may be critical, but for traffic accidents? Do they have paramedics also? How about if NYFD has armed ffs (and I do not mean arson detectives) who respond to police calls just to help out?

FDNY:


Fire


Confined space rescue


Structural collapse


Entrapment/impalement


Elevator emergency


Downed tree


NYPD:


Suspicious package/threat


EDP


Civil Disturbance


Hostage incident


Sniper


Water/Ice Rescue


Hazmat: NYPD incident command, FDNY life safety


FDNY/NYPD (whoever arrives first):


Auto extrication


Boat in distress


It doesn't have to make sense, it's NYC.
 
Sad...very poor selection of access point...if he had done the same thing on the frame of the car maybe I could live with it but on the plastic bumper...Jesus! I hope we all can take this into the class room!
 
Dr. Dennis Stouffer said:
I just don't get it why NY has two competing services for rescue interventions. Maybe someone can explain. I understand ESU for dangerous police situations where LEO specialized training, equipment, and capabilities may be critical, but for traffic accidents? Do they have paramedics also? How about if NYFD has armed ffs (and I do not mean arson detectives) who respond to police calls just to help out?

I'm From Suffolk, Long Island NY, SCPD ESU has hurst tools also. Some districts have protocols just like NYC, first on scene runs the operations with Fire doing medical. Most times we end up working together to achieve the common goal of getting the victims out alive and quickly to get them to the hospital. NY from my understanding has the view point of giving ESU hurst tools for speed and convenience. If your tool breaks/malfunctions or you need a second tool to do the job you have it on scene. Speed: if we are taking the doors and roof, FD takes one side ESU takes the other. The hard part about NYC is the FDNY and the NYPD in most areas still have conflicts with eachother. They have to learn to play nice in the sand box. If PD is running the OP, FD should still be assisting in my opinion. We are both still there for the same goal, preservation of life. So I hate to say it but PD and FD should be at fault for this. ESU for dropping the car and FD for not helping in the OP. Ignorance is not an excuse.


But I was not there on scene so I dont know the whole story.
 
I suppose I'll throw my monday morning quarterback idea out as well, since my EMT class discussed it at length the other day. It appears that there was a huge breakdown in communication and incident command. NYC has done studies, etc, about interoperability and I'm sure has gone through a plethora of NIMS training, but it doesn't seem that they applied any of that on this particular scene. Again, none of us were there, and from the video that I watched the other day, I'm pretty certain that the victim wasn't going to be viable regardless of the rescue outcome, but hopefully both agencies take this incident and actually learn from it.
 
FireEMSPolice said:
I wonder this also! I just dont see the need for NYPD ESU to do a job that FDNY is already there to do.

Many times ESU shows up before the FDNY. Just last week I responded to a "12-9" which in the Transit Authority means that someone was hit by a subway train. It happened to be some kid about 16 to 19 who was writing graffiti in the tunnel. ESU showed up a good ten minutes before the FDNY and was able to remove and stabilize the victim. Both the NYPD ESU and the FDNY serve an important role in the city. This is a tragic accident, you can't expect ANY department to save everyone they go out to rescue. I don't think 1 tragic accident out weighs the 1,000s of good saves both departments have.
 
I can see how having redundant services is convenient and helpful when you need them, it just seems like they need to define their duties better; being the first on scene should not be the determining factor over who has control. We have the same problem in my department, separate volly EMS and fire and we both have heavy rescues with Jaws. Basically whoever gets there first does the cutting and runs the scene. While this system can (and generally does) work if the departments get along, you run the risk of situations where each responder is trying to beat the next department to run the Jaws and get IC set up. Everyone needs a defined role that they assume once all of the proper resources are on scene.


It's easy to pick apart the actions of the NYPD/FDNY after the fact but from what I can see it's a matter of command and control- if both agencies are on scene, someone needs to have the authority to say "I'm in charge, this is who it's going to go down." At the same time, the guys already on scene need to have the humility and discipline to swallow their pride and take a less "glamorous" job, e.g. cribbing, PT stabilization, etc. It looks like there was little coordination between agencies and ESU just wanted to get the PT out. If he was DOA, critical, or fine, it doesn't matter- you need to do the job right.
 
The main thing is not for PD/FD to figure who is in charge, but to work together better. If FDNY is there first, the NYPD will rarely get involved with the extrication - and vice-versa (even if ESU only has 2 members o/s vs. 12+ FDNY - as seems to be evident from this MVA).


We should never jump to judge an agency by one incident. Many people were too harsh on the NYPD, NYC protocol & ICS (or lack thereof) etc from this incident. Every agency - volly, career, PD, Fire, etc - makes mistakes. The most important thing is to learn from it. One benefit of the internet is now these 'blunders' are preserved. Many training classes & call review sessions are built on learning from previous incidents.


ESU are true professionals that bring many, many skills to the table. Agencies throughout the NYC area rely on them for assistance. They did not get into the Auto Extrication business to 'compete' with FDNY - it is one of many tools in their arsenal that they happen to have. If they are available to help, (as professional rescuers with the knowledge & tools needed to save that person's life), go for it.
 
From watching the video, with the amount of pooled blood from around the head (first 2 minutes) I highly doubt there was a chance of him surviving. However, I do agree that the wrong tool was used for the job, and the death and fault falls back to ALL personal on scene that did not scream WTF is going on...
 

Forum Statistics

Threads
55,618
Messages
456,109
Members
20,010
Latest member
ethannavah