Right now I have the stock battery and stock alternator on my truck. I have a dodge ram and my alternator is pushing 160 amps. Should I put a better battery on it? If so what kind should I get? So far it winds it up just find but I would like to be safe..
Federal Signal Q on my POV..
- Thread starter Ronixrider82
- Start date
Tlauden
Member
I looked at that option.. The car audio guys say deep cell as well... Can't find any good info on what to use with a Q since there designed for a firetruck..
7d9_z28
New Member
Coming from someone whos 3/4 ton pickup has 3 batteries, 2 alternators (one of which is a High Output 250amp) and 2800 watts of ac power... I say you can never have too many batteries or alternators.
I run an Optima Red top as my trucks primary battery. With just that battery and my stock 145 amp alt, I ran an 8'6" V plow, lights, computer, cb and scanner, all with VERY little drop. I would believe that your current setup (based on the condition of the battery and alternator) should be enough, as long as you dont leave the Q running all night
:thumbsup:
I run an Optima Red top as my trucks primary battery. With just that battery and my stock 145 amp alt, I ran an 8'6" V plow, lights, computer, cb and scanner, all with VERY little drop. I would believe that your current setup (based on the condition of the battery and alternator) should be enough, as long as you dont leave the Q running all night
:thumbsup:Your alternator produces a nominal 160A - that's assuming a cool evening and an engine RPM typically above 1500RPM. From there, you start deducting. An amp-clamp would be useful to determine what the truck's on-board systems draw, but 50A is a good approximation (headlights on, AC running, medium fan). Then subtract whatever other emergency equipment you have running. A well-maintained Q2B will draw about 100A, so subtract that. As you can see, you're getting close to nuking the alternator and are starting to rely on your battery.
Assuming you aren't running any other huge electrical demands (halogen or strobe lightbar, etc.) you are *probably* OK for short runs. If you're making a long run, or really winding the crap out of it, you may have issues.
Adding a better battery isn't going to do much for you - the reserve capacity of most batteries is 50-60Ah. The proper course of action would be to upgrade the alternator to a high-output unit.
Ever considered that a Q2 on your POV might be a *tad* excessive?
Assuming you aren't running any other huge electrical demands (halogen or strobe lightbar, etc.) you are *probably* OK for short runs. If you're making a long run, or really winding the crap out of it, you may have issues.
Adding a better battery isn't going to do much for you - the reserve capacity of most batteries is 50-60Ah. The proper course of action would be to upgrade the alternator to a high-output unit.
Ever considered that a Q2 on your POV might be a *tad* excessive?
7d9_z28
New Member
7d9_z28
New Member
Wailer said:
Which brings to light another point... In the 50s, alternators (generators) and batteries certainly werent as powerful as they are today.. Equipment had more draw and less to draw from. Now we use low draw equipment but have more power available... Funny how that works. But if a 1960 ambulance could run two or more beacons, a mechanical siren and perhaps an electronic one also... You shouldnt have an issue if you dont over do it.
Steve0625
Member
We had a '66 Cadi and a '71 Cadi when I got in the EMS business in 1972. Both had high output, heavy duty, 300+ amp Leece-Neville alternators and dual, large capacity batteries. Without that electrical system, I highly doubt that they could have supported a Q plus the other lights and accessories. At idle without any siren, the lights would brown down pretty quickly. We added a high idle kit to both rigs pretty quickly.Wailer said:
hitman38367
Member
Bite your friggin tongue!!!! that's what I will be installing on my POV...so, NO....it's not excessive. lol!!!Ronixrider82 said:
If the Q won't work, there is always the model 28. It might be a few db less in volume but it's got the same shrill tinny mechanical sound as a Q. The 28 isn't in production any more, but there are lots of used ones floating around. But if you go that route, avoid the 28H with sixteen ports - that one doesn't sound anything like a Q.
Fyrboy5
Member
Other things to consider are mounting locations, switching options, and wiring. I'm working on a solution to put a model 28 into my 06 Silverado and the hardest part for me is the mounting of the physical siren.
As far as switching, I went to my local auto-parts store and picked up a Cole-Hersee 24213 solenoid ( Solenoids & Relays | Steel & Phenolic Body Solenoids24213 | Cole Hersee - Littelfuse ) which can handle up to 200A and is rated for continuous duty. I may have gone a bit overboard as the 28 only draws 75-ish amps on windup but a Q obviously draws more. Make sure you calculate for proper wire size and fuse properly. I'm having trouble finding a 100-125 amp fuse that doesn't have substantial delay in severing the circuit when presented with too much amperage.
Good luck with your project and please document each step so we can all learn from it.
As far as switching, I went to my local auto-parts store and picked up a Cole-Hersee 24213 solenoid ( Solenoids & Relays | Steel & Phenolic Body Solenoids24213 | Cole Hersee - Littelfuse ) which can handle up to 200A and is rated for continuous duty. I may have gone a bit overboard as the 28 only draws 75-ish amps on windup but a Q obviously draws more. Make sure you calculate for proper wire size and fuse properly. I'm having trouble finding a 100-125 amp fuse that doesn't have substantial delay in severing the circuit when presented with too much amperage.
Good luck with your project and please document each step so we can all learn from it.
7d9_z28 said:
You make a good point. When I went to work for a funeral home-based ambulance service in 1963, just out of high school, our ambulance was a 1959 Pontiac Bonneville wagon. It had a roof-mounted Q, two single faced red Carpenter lights (one on each side of the Q) and a Federal 17 beacon behind the Q. With the warning lights on and reasonably accelerating, if you stepped on the Q, the flashing lights dimmed and the beacon would momentarily stop. This car had the standard generator. It's replacement, a '61 Pontiac wagon was a bit better, as it had an alternator. Downside was in those days no one really understood the electrical draw of Qs and B&Ms, etc.
In 1974 when I had my standby ambulance service running I bought a '65 Olds VistaCruiser that had been built as an ambulance. It had been stripped when I got it. I went back with: a roof mounted Q, four DoRay lollipop lights (two on each side of the siren), a Federal 174 behind the Q (waaay behind on the VistaCruiser 'hump'), flashing spots and grille lights and eventually alternating high beams. I went to Sears and had their two best Die Hards put on along with the exisitng highoutput alt. Not a problem.
You have to consider that modern vehicles have a lot of micro-electronics that are much more sensitive to voltage variations... could cause a problem.
WS224
Member
In my limited understanding of deep cell batteries they are better for many recurring cycles of discharge/charging type use as in trolling motors and golf cart applications. That said they may be better for Q-2 abuse however it is the alternator that will be taxed as well as the delicate electronics mentioned here by another professional. Sounds risky to me and I run four of them at once.
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foxtrot5 said:
The model 28 is a great choice as it will run vertical if necessary where most clutched coasters don't tolerate much off level due to the clutch. As far as a breaker goes we never ran Q loads through protection on the engines, they also bypassed the Cole-Hersee battery switches, too much draw when added to the rest of the engine's needs. Just the solenoid's control circuits are protected with fuses/breakers. This is S O P throughout the industry as far as I know. They are a safety device and must work when called on, not pop a breaker. If it all goes bad in a siren motor and the solenoid welds shut also then that my friend is what the pumper trucks are for. Yeah,...bad day. Could happen but never has that I know of. I have two giant coasters on each solenoid and no breakers on secondaries without issue....so far. If the siren motor dead shorts to ground the solenoid will chatter long before it would weld shut. That 200 A. C/H solenoid is the right choice. None better imho.
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Torpedo said:
So it's a safety device and it *must* work, to the point of catching on fire? Kinda useless then, isn't it? FAIL. :bonk:
There are plenty of breakers sized to handle this. Yes, they will take a short period to fire (there's a curve of current draw over time to make them open) but they should be used to protect the equipment, wire, and vehicle.
What other electrical accessories are you running? Your current alternator "might" be fine but at the very least I'd look at upgrading it with one of the multitude of options available. A Q would probably put less stress on the electrical system then a big electric winch, probably similar current draw but the difference is you would probably run the Q for less then a minute at a time while turning fairly high RPMs vs running a winch for several minutes at idle.
Torpedo said:
Thanks, Dennis for that input as I almost forgot to mention something. In 1966 the City of Longview, TX bought a brand new '66 Pontiac station wagon which they took to the Gordon K. Allen Co. in Dallas for conversion as an ambulance. GKA was not only the longtime Super Coach dealer, but built thousands of ambulances in-house more than 30 years. Gordon K. Allen, Sr., established the short lived Modular Ambulance Corp., building the original Modulance Type Is along with Type II and III ambulances. Now Longview's fire chief wanted something specific on this new ambulance: three Qs and five Dietz 211 beacons. There was nothing problematic about the beacons, but getting the three specific Qs the chief wanted was another matter. Longtime GKA salesman Travis Hagen had to take every single Q they had in stock to get three sirens that had the specific pitches the chief wanted. That having been done, GKA had to tackle the problem of how to power three big Qs along with five four-lamp beacons. What they came up with was twin batteries and two high output L-N alternators. That did the trick. I got the see that Pontiac one time, and that was after Longview traded the car to GKA for a new ambulance. GKA removed the two "extra" Qs, leaving the one and the five beacons intact. Where I saw it was in Clovis,NM in 1973 when my friend Phil Bickerstaff, owner of the former Gold Star Ambulance bought the car. The one time that I saw it I also got to go in a call in it. It was a very nice, smooth-running car, but it wasn't all that spectacular with "just" the one Q and the beacons. Gold Star ceased operations shortly after I saw that car, so I never knew where it went. Since station wagons were still legal at the time, I would've liked to have had it. I would've liked it more with the original setup.'
Another New Mexico ambulance that I saws years before the Pontiac was a 1964 Chrysler wagon ambulance that had been leased from GKA by the Hobbs Fire Dept. in 1969 when the one private ambulance co. there went out of business. I only saw this wagon the one time,so I haven't a clue as to who did the conversion. The unusual thing about this wagon was that the original factory luggage rack was retained, which was unusual for ambulance conversion. That suggests that whoever originally "built" this ambulance may have done so in-house rather than by someone like Gordon K. Allen Co. On both sides of the luggage rack two large metal plates had been mounted large brack arms extending to the roof of the car. On the those two mounts were placed twin Qs. The lighting package consisted of twin red 17 beacons on the front corners and blue 174 beacon just behind the luggage rack, just over the tailgate. And there was a pair of Unity 6" red sealed-beam lights on the bumper. Not quite as spectacular as the '66 Pontiac, but you could see and hear it coming quite well. The only time I ever saw it was when it had made an emergency transfer from Hobbs to the then-Methodist Hospital in Lubbock. I only got a quick look at the wagon, so I didn't get a chance to look underhood to see what powered the twin Qs and the lights. Hopefully it was something equitable.
foxtrot5 said:
You have some good points. But the Q doesn't draw a lot much more than a 28. Now I know some changes have been made on motors over the years, but primarilly when Federal built their entire line of motor sirens, all of the larger models from the 66 class, which includes the 28, up to the Q used the same motors. The exception to this was a Model 28S which had a smaller motor, which required much less "juice" to operate and was good for close-quarters mounting. That would be a good option to go on a POV if space is a consideration. I see a few of them pop up from time to time on Ebay; but since the "S" models were special builds, there may not be just a whole lot of them left out there.
Skip Goulet said:
If that's the case, thanks for the information! That would mean that the initial AMP draw for it is ~75 AMPS. I called FS and spoke with a service rep who was able to pull up a spec sheet on the 28 for me. He sounded a little surprised that I was interested in information on this particular siren, especially for a POV. Obviously he's never heard of ELB!
foxtrot5 said:
Obviously that rep must be a "youngster" who's just not familiar with Federal used to build. In their day there were literally thousands of 28s built and sold, a lot of them going to law enforcement, but even more went on the hearse/ambulance combinations. The 28 originally sold for $75 new, but had gone to over $200 by the time they were discontinued in 1978, along with everything else but the Q. About the 75 amp. initial draw: that's what it takes to roll the siren over, but once it is running, the amp draw drops back to about 50 amps (+-). The most efficient sirens out there current wise are the B&M sirens whose motors require much less initial amperage, not to mention a lot less running current. Since Kevin O'Connell took over B&M in 1998, he has done a tremendous job in selling the Super Chief sirens to departments that would orinarilly not consider anything but a Q. His selling points are less current draw, and the fact that at long range, the Super Chief beats the Q hands down. If you haven't heard one, their deep moaning wail carries much further than the higher pitch of the Q. At close range the Q's 10" will drown out the 8" Super Chief, but it's at the further distance where the Super Chief beats the Q. If you have any doubts, ask Dennis Torpedo. He has one!