I was able to compare the Sound Off Ghosts to Code3 ST6's with both put in my grille today while trying to figure out what I want in there. The ghosts definitely are awesome lights but they weren't as visible from off axis views or angle views as the code3's. Is the Predator II better than the ghosts for other than straight on? Or any other suggestions? I have seen the pimp pods but not at same time as the others.
Grille wide coverage LEDs
- Thread starter misparkz
- Start date
kinnelonfire75
Member
If you got the cheese, the Predator 2 have the best coverage. But don't get too wrapped up on off-axis with LEDs. Most are better than you realize when viewed at realistic distances. Figure out your intersection approach speeds...realistically (and safely while in full in compliance with your emergency vehicle operation laws and policies) what are you talking, 60 mph or so? Any faster and you are starting to out-drive your siren. So now figure an average person's perception/reaction time is 1.5 seconds (common time used in crash reconstruction work). So, you need to be visible at a distance that is 1.5 to 3 seconds from a given location when travelling 60 mph. Velocity is 88 fps @ 60mph. Now that means you need to look at your lights at 100-150 feet off and see what the "off-axis" is. This is where it counts, and you'll probably find that your lights are fine. Too many folks stand 10-15 feet from their lights and then walk to a steep angle. Then they say there is crappy off-axis. That is not a realistic measure of a warning light's capability or a realistic simulation of their use. If someone is 10-15 feet away and about to t-bone you in an intersection, then it's too late for your lights to matter. Besides, there are 8 critical angle for warning, each at 45 degree segments of 360, with zero degrees being your dead center front. off-axis may or may not meet the 45 degree needs, but it will never cover the 90 degree needs. In other words, all the off-axis in the world is no substitute for dedicated side-facing lights.
NPS Ranger
Member
C2Installs said:
If you approach an intersection at 60 MPH expecting any warning lights to protect you, think again.
Core Public Safety
Member
Thanks for all the input and recommendations. Choosing is alot of fun but the paying part kinda sucks! That's why I'm still in the choosing mode and appreciating your input.
NPS Ranger said:
Care to offer anything more?
I did not say entering an intersection. I said approaching. There are a ton of factors involved, including light conditions, roadway design, rural/business, type of intersection, weather, pedestrians, etc. I think 60 mph is a reasonable speed to be traveling when you are 200-300 feet from an intersection, assuming you are slowing, not accelerating. I may not be articulating this as well as I'd like. I drive in some of the heaviest traffic in the state daily. I am a PIT-certified EVOC trainer. I supervise 12 officers daily. I have some idea about this. No warning lights or siren "protects" you. I was simply addressing the concerns about off-axis. I can think of no other reason to care about off-axis other than intersections. My point is that off-axis light is probably better than thought at a distance where it might make a difference.
ELB...where quips are a substitute for discussion. :roll:
I am a big proponent of intersection/ off axis warning due to the area I work in. It is a small town, but we have several large state highways that intersect in the town and a lot of big rigs travel though. All of our cars are equipped with corner strobes and those from 05 and newer have push bumpers which a few of us have added LED's to the side of.
I was recently traveling through town off duty and saw one of the guys clearing our biggest intersection code 3. His front corner strobes weren't working for some reason and he doesn't have a PB so, as he eased out from between two log trucks, I stopped because I could hear the siren but had no idea where it was coming from. I eventually saw the stripes on the fender of his car and knew where he was entering from, but saw several people just blow right by him. I know people who are already not paying attention (which is 99.999% of our public, based on my experience running code) are not going to suddenly become good drivers because of strobes, but, if just one person stops sooner and safer, the lights have done their job.
I was recently traveling through town off duty and saw one of the guys clearing our biggest intersection code 3. His front corner strobes weren't working for some reason and he doesn't have a PB so, as he eased out from between two log trucks, I stopped because I could hear the siren but had no idea where it was coming from. I eventually saw the stripes on the fender of his car and knew where he was entering from, but saw several people just blow right by him. I know people who are already not paying attention (which is 99.999% of our public, based on my experience running code) are not going to suddenly become good drivers because of strobes, but, if just one person stops sooner and safer, the lights have done their job.
NPS Ranger
Member
OK I mis-read what you were trying to say, I was thinking of entering, not approaching.
Still, at 200-300 feet from the intersection, 60 MPH seems way fast to be approaching if you intend to enter against a red signal. To quote you:
If you do the math, 88 FPS for 1.5 to 3 seconds actually equals 132 to 264 feet away, so you need to be seeing the lights realistically from 150-300 feet away if you'll be maintaining your speed, a bit less if you're decelerating. Even in the MSP police vehicle tests, a maximum-rate impending-lockup stop from 60 MPH averages about 150 feet for the best police vehicles. Your average non-pursuit-rated POV pickup or SUV may not do as well.
Now, add to the problem that if you're entering the intersection at 90 degrees from the observer, their vision is not directed at you and probably won't be, until you're much closer to the intersection. Perception/reaction time usually refers to stimuli within the observer's visual field, and approaching an intersection at 90 degrees you're often shielded from view by buildings, other vehicles, etc. So you can't count on someone on the cross street seeing you 1.5 to 3 seconds away, it may be much less.
EVOC would teach that you slow or stop and make eye contact with any cross traffic before proceeding. I personally wouldn't still be traveling at 60 MPH when I'm that close to an intersection where I know I'll have to stop. However I do agree that there's no substitute for intersection/side warning, intersection lights with 100% cycle time (easy to do with split LED's) and good roof lights visible from off axis are essential.
Still, at 200-300 feet from the intersection, 60 MPH seems way fast to be approaching if you intend to enter against a red signal. To quote you:
C2Installs said:
If you do the math, 88 FPS for 1.5 to 3 seconds actually equals 132 to 264 feet away, so you need to be seeing the lights realistically from 150-300 feet away if you'll be maintaining your speed, a bit less if you're decelerating. Even in the MSP police vehicle tests, a maximum-rate impending-lockup stop from 60 MPH averages about 150 feet for the best police vehicles. Your average non-pursuit-rated POV pickup or SUV may not do as well.
Now, add to the problem that if you're entering the intersection at 90 degrees from the observer, their vision is not directed at you and probably won't be, until you're much closer to the intersection. Perception/reaction time usually refers to stimuli within the observer's visual field, and approaching an intersection at 90 degrees you're often shielded from view by buildings, other vehicles, etc. So you can't count on someone on the cross street seeing you 1.5 to 3 seconds away, it may be much less.
EVOC would teach that you slow or stop and make eye contact with any cross traffic before proceeding. I personally wouldn't still be traveling at 60 MPH when I'm that close to an intersection where I know I'll have to stop. However I do agree that there's no substitute for intersection/side warning, intersection lights with 100% cycle time (easy to do with split LED's) and good roof lights visible from off axis are essential.
Several good points made in above posts and so many variables to consider in each situation. Off axis to me is always an important factor. Whether it's approaching an intersection or just responding down the road. The wider the angle my lights are effectively warning the happier I am! Another time I feel off axis comes into play is blocking roads. I'm sure we've all had the same experiences where if you park head on someone is going to try to go around because we're only parked that way cause we were bored or it applies to everyone but them. Rural roads you can get away w/ one pickup on angle but add any shoulders it normally takes two on angles. How every you do it you normally are at somewhat of an angle. Here again I want what ever lighting I have to be effective at the widest angles so they're seeing multiple levels of lighting.
NPS Ranger said:
I think we're saying about the same things, sorta. I'm in agreement that you ALWAYS stop before entering a controlled (red) intersection, and still slow waaaaaay down even if green (someone turning right on red will get you). We teach clearing each lane as its own problem and making eye contact and even using hand signals to individual drivers. I'm not saying 60 is a always a good speed, or the right speed. I did just (like within the last 1.5 hours) have two back-to-back emergency responses in a heavy traffic urban environment and 60 was not a ridiculous speed (35 & 45 mph zones) when coming up on intersections.
I did not word my post right, as I wasn't meaning to say that 1.5 to 3.0 seconds x 88fps = 100-150 feet...unfortunately it reads that way...but that that's where you need to start judging off-axis effectiveness. Closer is pointless and if the off-axis at that distance is good, then it will be even better at realistic intersection distances. Yes, 300 feet is a better distance to start "attacking" the intersection, slowing, planning routes, etc. At 300 feet, though, your siren is about useless to sealed-up cars, so visibility is all you really have. I agree on vision obstructions being an issue, so once you are slowed and closer to the intersection proper sirens can help a bit - they will only know look for you when they hear you. Not trying to argue, and appreciate the discussion, which was what I was trying to achieve. This board is often lacking in reasoned responses and discussion, with threads too often turning into opinion contests.
NPS Ranger
Member
C17LVFD
Member
I a big fan of bigger foot prints when you can... I've got a pair of M6's in my grill and love them.. Depending what type of grill, will obviously depend on how you're limited. Just my 0.02.
If you don't mind the larger foot print and want True off axis coverage, go with the PowerArc P14.
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ELB discounts available.