Here We Go Again!!!

[Phillyrube]

From: firefighterclosecalls.com


FIRE CHIEF THREATENED WITH ARREST/CITED FOR BLOCKING THE HIGHWAY-NEW YORK


Wednesday, January 26, 2011 In Nassau County on Long Island (NY) this morning, James Allen, Chief of the North Merrick Fire Department, was issued a citation by a New York State Trooper. The Chief was making an attempt to close the southbound right-hand lane because of a crash in the center lane on the Meadowbrook State Parkway around 0900 today. The Chief was leaving one lane open for traffic to keep moving, but wanted the accident lane and one other lane closed for safety.


“It wasn’t safe. The weather this morning was not good (wet, snowy, icy) and cars were slipping and sliding all over the place. We had a crash victim and I was just trying to make it as safe as possible. I have to keep my personnel safe too,” Allen said.


It should be noted that NY State just passed the Ambrose-Searles Move Over Act. It's named after a NY State Trooper and an Onondaga County Sheriff's deputy, who were both killed in the Line of Duty while their patrol cars were stopped along the side of the road. New York is one of the last states to enact a Move Over Law.


HERE IS THE STATE POLICE PSA VIDEO ON WHY THE ROADS MUST BE MADE SAFE FOR EMERGENCY RESPONDERS AT ANY SCENE:

 

[RickLBZ]

WOW. That doesn't even qualify as a pissing match because the trooper is dead wrong. Seriously was he thinking, let traffic back-up, OH WELL. Having the center and right lane also gives you access to the shoulder and therefore plenty of room to work.


On a side note, saw the act named after Trooper Ambrose. Florida Highway Patrol lost a Trooper named Ambroise after being rear ended and the car catching on fire, 5/15/2010.

 

[mcpd2025]

That is just stupid. I don't understand the need to have a "measuring contest" in the middle of the roadway. If the request is legal and reasonable, I will fulfill it every time. I guess I understand that the trooper wanted to get the highway open as soon as possible to alleviate traffic, but common sense tells you it would be MUCH faster to close the right lane, let fireboard work and then open the entire road.

 

[cory y]

sounds like a Trooper is about to get his ass handed to him

 

[Ben E.]

Hopefully the Trooper gets a talkin' to and figures it out.


I've never disagreed with my fire chief about any sort of scene protection, and if I did I'd just keep my mouth shut. Once he arrives, it's his scene, not mine.

 

[C420sailor]

Once he arrives, it's his scene, not mine.

That's the problem in NY. Unless it's a no-sh!t FIRE scene (things are burning), the police own it. Doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me.

 

[911]

maybe they should trasnfer him up to buffalo lol

 

[ncfd4303]

That's the problem in NY. Unless it's a no-sh!t FIRE scene (things are burning), the police own it. Doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me.

the police "think" they own it. next time this happens, have your chief tell the officer that we're outta here and that he has extrication and patient care now, then watch the look on his face.


I do not know what the roadblock is here, but we need to realize that we all signed up for the same reason...to help others, and we need to work together alot more. Maybe some cross-classroom training is needed to make the other team realize where we are comming from and what we're looking for on scenes. And that will help us see where they are comming from; but I do NOT want to hear about "lost dollars" and "lost commerce", vehicles driving down a highway does not bring them into town to spend money, sorry I don't buy it.

 

[theroofable]

We had a head on accident last year with heavy entrapment on the main road through south jersey and the trooper didnt want to close the road due sunday summer traffic. Note that the accident took up 60% of the roadway. We also had our engine in the other lane at the same time. He argued with my chief for a few minutes until the road was blocked off with other emergency vehicles.

 

[Steve0625]

That's the problem in NY. Unless it's a no-sh!t FIRE scene (things are burning), the police own it. Doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me.

Not quite true. There is a section of the NYS BLS Protocols that states:


EMT-B Basic Life Support Protocols PS – 98-05 Page 2


STATUTORY AUTHORITY and BACKGROUND


Several NYS statutes provide public safety agencies and their personnel with the


authority to conduct operations consistent with their responsibility to protect their


citizens. These include providing services at and managing emergency conditions which


may effect the health, safety or welfare of individuals and communities.


New York State statutes which define the responsibilities of public safety


responders (police, fire and EMS) include the Public Health Law, General Municipal


Law, County Law, Town Law, Village Law, Education Law, Penal Law and Criminal


Procedures Law R .





These statutes have been extensively reviewed to determine the actual


authorities, powers, duties and responsibilities of the agencies and individuals who may


respond to prehospital EMS situations. This research, concludes that the only individual


in charge of patient care in the prehospital setting is the NYS certified patient care


provider. Specific authority is also identified for the provision of medical control and the


responsibility of ambulance and ALS First Response Services to a patient. Additionally,


while Education Law defines the scope of and authorizes the practice of medicine in


general, it does not provide for or define patient care in the prehospital setting.





These statutes, which describe arrest powers for peace/police officers and the


responsibilities of a fire chief during the response to a fire or explosion were adopted


prior to EMS gaining formal recognition as an emergency response provider. The


statutes are vague in detail and do not specifically address the responsibilities for


providing patient care. In the absence of other controlling statutes, Public Health Law,


therefore, takes precedence in regard to the provision of prehospital emergency medical


care.


In this case, the North Merrick FD is a NYS Certified Paramedic level EMS agency providing ambulance service as well as fire suppression, rescue, and extrication services. If somebody is smart enough to bring a copy of this protocol to show the judge and/or NYSP supervisor, I believe this whole thing would fall in favor of the Fire Chief's judgment.

 

[badge22]

I will let ANY firefighter tell me how THEY want traffic handled. It's THEIR scene. It's my job to support them. The only time I have an issue is if there is a concern for evidence preservation / or crime in progress.

 

[rwo978]

I don't understand why so many cops/troopers/deputies have such a hardon when it comes to keeping a road open. Who friggen cares if someone can't get up the road to buy another pack of cigarettes? I'm just as worried about getting my rear end run over as I am about any of the other responders out there. I err on 'if there's any reason to close it, close it.' Joe Blow can find some other road to drive on.


What's the first thing we talk about in any situation? Scene safety. How is operating in the center lane in a 3 lane road with traffic wizzing by on both sides safe? :duh: :duh: :duh: :duh: :duh:

 

[ffemt045]

@c420sailor. Not true, municipal law in nys states the fire chief has complete control over any emergency scene in his jurisdiction. There have been issues in the past with area depts here and a few bent noses. Hopefully the troopers get his information correct.

 

[Lt.214]

Before I say this I want to take a second and say that the following statement applies to SOME of the LEO's/TROOPERS out there, and by no means is meant to stereotype them all. Being on the Fire/EMS side I work with several LEO's who are more than happy to shut roadways down to allow Fire/EMS crews to get in, do our job and get out. Most are happy to have an engine there to help block traffic and provide scene lighting for them at night.


With my disclaimer posted, he is what I have encountered:


Some and I don't mean most, but some put their uniform on, put on the gunbelt, and pin on their badge and think that they ARE THE LAW, not enforcing the law.


At the end of the day we in Public Safety are all on the same team, doing our jobs protecting the community and citizens we serve. It doesn't have to turn into us against them, that's just stupid.


Stay Safe!


Chris

 

[badge22]

Before I say this I want to take a second and say that the following statement applies to SOME of the LOE's/TROOPERS out there, and by no means is meant to stereotype them all. Being on the Fire/EMS side I work with several LEO's who are more than happy to shut roadways down to allow Fire/EMS crews to get in, do our job and get out. Most are happy to have an engine there to help block traffic and provide scene lighting for them at night.

With my disclaimer posted, he is what I have encountered:


Some and I don't mean most, but some put their uniform on, put on the gunbelt, and pin on their badge and think that they ARE THE LAW, not enforcing the law.


At the end of the day we in Public Safety are all on the same team, doing our jobs protecting the community and citizens we serve. It doesn't have to turn into us against them, that's just stupid.


Stay Safe!


Chris

Well said.

 

[kitn1mcc]

its amazing that this type of Rubbish still goes on this day in age. With NIMS and all the other FEMA stuff and the fact we all need to work together.


even what i do on the Power and light side when the cops call u in they are like what do you need and how


(but we do give the LOADS of OT)

 

[FireEMSPolice]

I have never known an LEO that refused to close a roadway for safety. HOWEVER, ask an Ohio State Trooper to close the Ohio Turnpike and you will get a big fat NO WAY, NO HOW. The Ohio Turnpike Commission will piss and moan at the lost revenue.


My old instructor, a retired OSHP Captain was on the Turnpike for a period of time during his career. He told me how he got his ass chewed for diverting traffic and other crap, all with safety in mind. Hate when dollars are more important then safety.

 

[Amanda]

@c420sailor. Not true, municipal law in nys states the fire chief has complete control over any emergency scene in his jurisdiction. There have been issues in the past with area depts here and a few bent noses. Hopefully the troopers get his information correct.

I'm going to say that C420Sailor's comment was complete sarcasm. In the eyes of some cops, that's the situation: unless there is a working structure fire, this is MY scene... of course we all know differently. If you call the FD/Ambulance then you bet your ass that you're handing over control of that scene to the other entity and you're there for a support role.. but also in the eyes of a video I recently saw in a training class and NIMS training... "we are all in charge, just of our own entities, and we need to work in unified command."


Anyone ever see the video "HATS"? It's by a trooper from a state down south and it's the best representation of any pissing match on scene. The best part? He says himself that some troopers will arrive on scene hold on to their gun and say "I'm in charge" and imply that the gun is the reason they are in charge.


I don't want to seem like I am shitting on cops so please don't take it that way. My FD gets along very well with the local PDs and sometimes there's a pissing match from the troopers but they usually keep their noses out of our business. I have had cops thank me a hundred times over for taking care of traffic control duties so that they can work on their duties.. and a free cup of coffee compliments of the PD isn't a bad thing either.

 

[stp354]

I just wanted to say that in my experience, it's safer to have traffic backup rather than free flowing. A traffic jam leads to slower moving vehicles. Slower is safer!

 

[Steve0625]

I have never known an LEO that refused to close a roadway for safety. HOWEVER, ask an Ohio State Trooper to close the Ohio Turnpike and you will get a big fat NO WAY, NO HOW. The Ohio Turnpike Commission will piss and moan at the lost revenue.

My old instructor, a retired OSHP Captain was on the Turnpike for a period of time during his career. He told me how he got his ass chewed for diverting traffic and other crap, all with safety in mind. Hate when dollars are more important then safety.

When individual situations like this exist, it darned well ought to be part of the pre-plan for response to that area, and ALL responders should know in advance what the special rules are.


Does anyone know if there has been any follow up to this case yet?

 

[pondfly]

In IL the FD has the authority to close lanes when needed for safety on any road. However the Tollway Authority was able to keep a clause saying that they still have authority. That being said they still are able to cooperate well.


The biggest thing on the roads is cooperation between agencies.

 

[Bonanno]

That's the problem in NY. Unless it's a no-sh!t FIRE scene (things are burning), the police own it. Doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me.

NJ anything on a state highway can be under the command of the NJSP. This only happens tho on The Garden State Parkway, and interstates. (I-95, I-195, I-295, etc.). We have the same problem as well with them argueing about lane closures, but after a few times of the road troopers getting a talking to by the Troop OIC, we dont get it as much as we used to, but still do.

 

[rick h.]

I am glad I worked in the country . We usually shut both lanes down for a accident or fire (70-80-90's). Most Depts still do shut traffic down for safety .I worked both Law Enforcement and Fire so I had a better prospective of what needed done. A lot of Law Enforcement Officers in WV. are also members of Volunteer Fire Depts. and or menbers of a EMS squad

 

[Alovebaby41]

As police we are there to block traffic. And im all for it if fire wants to block some more traffic because i have to work right out there with them so always be safe than sorry.

 

[HFD eng1ine]

At a fire scene or mva the police listen to the fire chief. He is in command. some just dont get that.

 

[TNFF412N]

At a fire scene or mva the police listen to the fire chief. He is in command. some just dont get that.

Really???? go say that to a police officer and see how he responds to you. Every State is different, But the big picture should be the same on any scene regarless of what is going on.Everybody plays a roll on a scene. Safety is priority, and COMMUNICATION..... Im sure that we might need to hear more about this story. I have had Officers jump down our throat and just say yes sir walk away and make a phone call. Rule of Thumb i go by is "EVERYBODY" has a boss. It takes a few seconds to plead my case with someone else and things tend to get handled. Yes some cops can be complete ASSHOLES but most aren't and react to how they are treated too. So if that Fire chief was being a dick the cop was just showing he could be too.......

 

[HFD eng1ine]

Really???? go say that to a police officer and see how he responds to you. Every State is different, But the big picture should be the same on any scene regarless of what is going on.Everybody plays a roll on a scene. Safety is priority, and COMMUNICATION..... Im sure that we might need to hear more about this story. I have had Officers jump down our throat and just say yes sir walk away and make a phone call. Rule of Thumb i go by is "EVERYBODY" has a boss. It takes a few seconds to plead my case with someone else and things tend to get handled. Yes some cops can be complete ASSHOLES but most aren't and react to how they are treated too. So if that Fire chief was being a dick the cop was just showing he could be too.......

Nononono im not in any way bashing officers. 99% of them are great. I just feel it would be safer at a fire scene for the fire cheif or ff in command to be in charge for he has the training in that specific situation. My two cents, but like you said, we can never really bash the trooper of the chief becasue we were not there nor do we know the situation. I hope it gets resovled and whoever was wrong learns their lesson.


KP

 

[C420sailor]

NJ anything on a state highway can be under the command of the NJSP. This only happens tho on The Garden State Parkway, and interstates. (I-95, I-195, I-295, etc.). We have the same problem as well with them argueing about lane closures, but after a few times of the road troopers getting a talking to by the Troop OIC, we dont get it as much as we used to, but still do.

I'm pretty sure that's how it is in NY too. Unless something is on fire, the police own the right of way.

 

[Amanda]

I'm pretty sure that's how it is in NY too. Unless something is on fire, the police own the right of way.

Whenever I work a scene PD is always there as a support role (unless we're there to shut down the roadway for an accident investigation and our job was already done). We had a fatal accident recently on a state roadway and the PD was there in a support role until we turned over command to them, and at that point we were the support (keeping the roadway shut down, supplying them with light for the scene and an engine while the cars were still there in case of fire). Then again as I said, the State Police stay away from my part of the county usually so we are only working with local PDs. Either way, the PD always arrives as a support role and to do their job if it's an MVA (collecting info, accident report, etc.)

 

[mcpd2025]

I think Doug (the Doc) and I had this discussion a while back and I don't remember the outcome... I have no idea who has the ultimate authority on wrecks and roadways in Maryland. As far as I know, a citizen is required to obey instructions of a police officer on the road, but I don't know of any law that states that a firefighter can enforce or give permission for someone else to override traffic law. Based upon that, I would deduce that law enforcement officers have the final say. Then again, it shouldn't matter. If fireboard wants me to shut the road down, its shut down, end of question.

 

[Phillyrube]

I think Doug (the Doc) and I had this discussion a while back and I don't remember the outcome... I have no idea who has the ultimate authority on wrecks and roadways in Maryland. As far as I know, a citizen is required to obey instructions of a police officer on the road, but I don't know of any law that states that a firefighter can enforce or give permission for someone else to override traffic law. Based upon that, I would deduce that law enforcement officers have the final say. Then again, it shouldn't matter. If fireboard wants me to shut the road down, its shut down, end of question.

+++++++ 1!!!!!!!!

 

[Station 3]

Big dick on scene big dick be taking over Incident Command all little dicks report to big dick Big dick to liitle dicks whats the situation hahahaha

 

[colby4601]

Big dick on scene big dick be taking over Incident Command all little dicks report to big dick Big dick to liitle dicks whats the situation hahahaha

......

 

[50theman]

The NYSP needs this Lieutenant from Virginia State Police to come give a speech.


Check this out

Fire Chief Jerry @ 6:06 and Trooper Bad As* @ 07:04

 

[Amanda]

The NYSP needs this Lieutenant from Virginia State Police to come give a speech.

Check this out

Thank youu! I was asking about that video in my post.

 

[aberfitchguy2472]

Thank youu! I was asking about that video in my post.

That was great.


It would be interesting to know what their point of view is on the situation. I gather from the video that everyone thinks they are in charge, but really at the end of the day when push comes to shove, who is in charge? It would be nice if we could all just play nice with each other, but there are too many politics and ego's involved for that to happen.


This is the way I view it. Something on fire, Fire Chief is in charge. Patient involved (and something isn't on fire) the lead medic/EMT is in charge (yes this includes auto extraction...Fire Chief and EMT/medic need to be together on this, but if there is a patient the medically trained person needs to have to say here because there are too many times I have seen an untrained person be in charge of a scene with a patient actively involved and it's scary). At an accident once there is no longer a patient involved, it's back to the Fire Chief. If there is a fender bender, robbery, shooting, domestic, etc the law enforcement is in charge. End of the day we all need to work together, but what is the deal with law enforcement wanting to have traffic flowing around an accident scene or fire scene where there are active operations going on subjecting responders, who are your fellow emergency service workers, to unneeded risks. I don't care if I have to keep the Governor waiting in traffic to make a scene safe or make someone late for a movie, dinner, job interview, etc...if the road needs to be shut down, it gets shut down. The police should back up the FD and EMS on scene, help close the roadway, keep the public in check, and aid in arranging resources. The FD should help the PD also when they are on scene once the active operations have stopped and help the PD with lighting, traffic control, etc. EMS should not be involved if there is not an active operation going on and should return to service to be avaliable for another call (though in rural America volunteer EMS members help do some things they normally wouldn't do in larger areas, most notably traffic control).


I have never really had a problem and everyone in the areas I volunteer in play nicely together on scenes, for the most part, especially when it comes to scene safety and shutting down a road. Some days there is a question as to who thinks they are in charge between the ranking members of the different agencies, but that never causes a problem with the overall dynamic of what happens on scene.


Random question, but does the Director of Emergency Services have the ability to pull rank on anyone including law enforcement?

 

[Steve0625]

That was great.

It would be interesting to know what their point of view is on the situation. I gather from the video that everyone thinks they are in charge, but really at the end of the day when push comes to shove, who is in charge? It would be nice if we could all just play nice with each other, but there are too many politics and ego's involved for that to happen.

I am quite certain that 10 minute segment was not his whole presentation.


I do believe it was a humorous, but truthful representation of the point of view of all parties concerned with an incident on a roadway. But it was just the opening of a much more comprehensive presentation on IMS or NIMS, not sure which.


Had the Police Officer and Fire Chief in the original post used some form of Incident Management, they would have conferred and agreed upon a course of action instead of the officer only seeing one side of the problem and solving it by being a bully and attempting to arrest the Fire Chief.


If memory serves, I believe that USDOT requires NIMS on all federally funded highways.

 

[aberfitchguy2472]

I am glad I worked in the country . We usually shut both lanes down for a accident or fire (70-80-90's). Most Depts still do shut traffic down for safety .I worked both Law Enforcement and Fire so I had a better prospective of what needed done. A lot of Law Enforcement Officers in WV. are also members of Volunteer Fire Depts. and or menbers of a EMS squad

That is very true for WV. That also tends to helps us all get along better and communication is even better because of it. Can't beat that. In WV we don't have some of the same traffic issues as other large areas, but safety is always most important. If we (the FD) want a roadways shut down, whether it is a development road, city street, county highway, federal freeway, or interstate...they are shut down, period, end of story, not questions asked and they stay that way until we are read for them to be reopened.


I remember a winter two years ago now that one of our sister departments had a car wreck just outside of our coverage area on the federal highway that runs through our area. The roads were terrible, covered with ice, and downright dangerous. The VFD Chief wanted the road shutdown, not just around his scene, but the entire corridor and the roads leading onto and off of it. Guess what, it got shut down from the first on ramp in the city all the way to his accident scene, as well as any road that led toward his accident scene. It took city PD, County Sheriff's, city FD, and our VFD to shut it down, but it got shut down and locked down for an hour while they were on scene and while the state road cleared and treated the roadway. All it took was a request to central and it was taken care of. All they had to do was dispatch all of the correct agencies, tell us what needed done, and notify the state control center that we had shutdown the highway. The highway was shut down for the scene safety of the accident scene and for the overall safety of the civilians because of the extremely hazardous travel conditions.

I am quite certain that 10 minute segment was not his whole presentation.

I do believe it was a humorous, but truthful representation of the point of view of all parties concerned with an incident on a roadway. But it was just the opening of a much more comprehensive presentation on IMS or NIMS, not sure which.


Had the Police Officer and Fire Chief in the original post used some form of Incident Management, they would have conferred and agreed upon a course of action instead of the officer only seeing one side of the problem and solving it by being a bully and attempting to arrest the Fire Chief.


If memory serves, I believe that USDOT requires NIMS on all federally funded highways.

Oh I was sure it was part of a longer lecture. It would have been nice to hear it all. He did a good job of setting it all up though.


I'm not sure that just NIMS would have taken care of this situation. I know there is probably more to the situation that we know. I have heard several stories like this and worse. I just don't see the problem the trooper had with the shutting down of the road because of the situation. I fondly remember a video I saw a few years ago of a Fire Captain being arrested after ordering his firefighter not to move the Engine to the side of the interstate and to remain where he was to block adn provide cover for the accident scene that had a patient still in a car being treated. That went to Federal Court and I believe the cop was stripped of his badge, gun, issued a hefty fine, and I believe even some jail time. Bad thing was it was not a rookie cop, but one who had been on the force for years and who had worked with the same City FD many times before.


Take home note for the thread is, play nice everyone. We all do this to help each other and to keep people safe, and at the end of the day safety is paramount.