Interior vs. Exterior

[Alec R]

Benefits of Interior setups? Benefits of Exterior setups? 

Discuss!

Please keep it clean and organized, this forum section is heavily moderated to keep information organized. We're going to use content from these discussions to compile a helpful guide for users seeking information about products in this industry.

 

[AJ3814]

I think they both have merit. There are times I loved being in a slick-top, and there are times I loved having overheads. At night, there is a BIG advantage to having access to good takedowns and alleys, especially if you run a lot of interdiction on the highway, or are a city/county officer that has to look for addresses or actors on the ground. Slic-tops are great for the "sneaky/surprise" factor.... For a good slick-top, you have to light it up in so many different places, it's a LOT of wiring to do.... and if you have tint, that's another thing to consider, however, if you mount the lights BEFORE you tint the vehicle, a good tint installer will measure, make cut outs for the lights, then install the tint..... problem solved. I do NOT like mounting lights behind tint... ever. I'm from Houston originally, and even the best LED's out now disappear in sunlight when inside a window, sometimes without tint even being involved. Also, I have never, and I mean never once, been in a slick-top that did not have a problem with light backlash..... this can be very dangerous if you work nights (which is the only shift I like). I have seen some officers make a homemade barrier with foam to greatly help with some of the "headliner" inside bars, but I'm 5'11", I need as much windshield as I can get in todays small a** cars. SUV's aren't near as much of an issue. But they're too slow for my taste. Give a little take a little.... oh well.

Now..... I know some people in favor of slick-tops will say, "Well, duh, that's what a spotlight is for"...... well there are a couple of problems with that: 1) Spotlights were popular and advantageous many years ago because GOOD takedowns and alleys didn't exist; now since they do, it's much easier, faster, and safer to flip switches by feel (I can operate all of my equipment VERY quickly simply by feel and never look down). 2) Once the beam of the spotlight goes past about the 1 or 2 o'clock position you start to light up the inside of the car (as well as yourself) through the windshield - a major tactical no-no. As a bonus tidbit of info... The Texas Highway Patrol told me that they never used spotlights because mouting them through a hole in the A-post compromised the structural integrity of the car to maintain strength during rollover crashes.

I do enjoy slick-tops for rare specific duties.

Personally I prefer overheads.

YMMV (couldn't resist.... had to).

 

[foxtrot5]

Excellent perspective for LEOs. I feel that in Fire/EMS any marked vehicle should have a roof mounted bar. A chief officer is never going to sneak up on a fire or stroke. Maybe you could argue for specific support vehicles needing substantially less warning, but most of the time a quality bar will still be cheaper and easier to install than a comparable slick-top package.


Personal vehicles should meet the requirements of all applicable local, state and federal laws when used for responses. That being said, everyone's experience will differ. I used NFPA 1901 as a guideline for my POV as it's widely regarded as "industry standard" or "best practice" for FD vehicles. My department had a policy that specifically forbid roof mounted lights, but if I were allowed I would choose to run a bar because it's overall more visible.


For installers and upfitters I can say from experience that it'it's easier to install a bar, HAWs, and a siren compared to a equally effective covert package. (I'm not saying that's a perfect warning package, just an easy example.)

 

[11b101abn]

Texas DPS Is full of poop. A police car without a spot light is undesirable. Especially in a slick top.

 

[UnityUSA]

Spotlight installation does not impact integrity of the vehicle. I have attached our official bulletin on the issue. Ford, GM, and Chrysler all install spotlights for police vehicles. If there was any concern they would have made us change spotlight installation. For the main police vehicles, we work with the automotive manufacturers to determine the best installation for the vehicle. A couple of the vehicles used for police applications even come with a hole in the A pillar already setup for a spotlight. The hole aids in drilling and is covered by exterior trim to hide it for those who decide against installing a spotlight. Depending on the vehicles THP uses they may already have the hole in the post.

 

[Sigma Safety]

It constantly amazes me how so many police and fire agencies do not follow the applicable standards for their vehicles. For Police, it's the SAE standard and for Fire it's the NFPA Small Vehicle standard. Both are pretty easy to meet for a marked vehicle (i.e. - with a lightbar on the roof).

The downside of a slick-top vehicle is that it's nearly impossible to make it meet SAE standards. To the front and rear is not that difficult, if you use full interior lightbars, but making them compliant to the sides is quite difficult. For the NFPA Small Vehicle standard, though, you can NOT make your vehicle compliant without a rooftop bar. Maybe there is a reason that NFPA did that?

We have seen some of our large police agencies getting away from slick-top vehicles. The officers seem to like them because they view their job as sneaking up on people, but the fleet managers and 'white shirts' seem to focus more on officer safety so they are curbing the use of slick top vehicles.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...rked-cars-after-crash-that-killed-3-1.3168789

In my view, there are NO reasons for a slick-top fire vehicle. With respect to foxtrot5's department, if they are banning exterior lightbars, they are really misunderstanding the idea of warning lights (assuming, that is, that there is no misguided local laws that restrict it and the FD's policy is just to keep in line with the local laws). Even for Chiefs with a take-home vehicle, if they want to respond in their trucks, then put a bar on it. There are so many bars that are so low-profile these days that there really isn't an excuse. There are NO interior lighting systems that can compete with the warning power of a lightbar (especially to 45 degrees and 90 degrees off-axis).

For police, I can appreciate that using a slick-top is sometimes beneficial if you want to sneak up on people. However, you have to then ensure that the car does not engage in a pursuit or high-speed call that involves clearing traffic. While slick-top lights may be suitable for warning approaching vehicles while the police car is stopped (what NFPA calls "blocking" mode), they are not suitable for "responding" mode. Argue if you will, but responding with anything less than a fully lit car with a lightbar is more risky than it needs to be. And, what are the upsides - so you can better catch a speeder? Not a great pro/con list.

At the end of the day, use lights that allow you to meet the standards that apply to your fleet. If you don't, you open yourself up to liability both on the road and in court. Why take the chance?

 

[billforbush]

Slicktop operation of fire POVs may be desirable in some cases. My department vehicle has a rooftop lightbar, but my POV - used primarily for occasional night-time response from home - is (almost) slicktop. I am using two Ion Spitfires on either side of the RVM, two TIR6 on the grille, HLF, TLF, two single Talons in the rear window (until I can fab the brackets for a Dominator 8) and one LIN3 on each side in the top of the rear side window. To be Michigan legal, I also have a Firebeam to throw up on the roof. The setup is highly effective and should move traffic very effectively. My last truck had a lightbar, but I didn't like it when I visit in the urban araes downstate or when pulling my camper. Just my .02 cents ...

Bill

 

[billforbush]

Ps - career fire chief

 

[Sparky_911]

My thoughts.....
For department owned vehicles I feel that anything marked and used for
1. standard LE patrol
2. responding to fire/EMS calls
3. and is ever used on any highway/interstate (traffic speeds over 50mph)
should have a full roof bar period. There are so many more safety benefits, visibility, off axis white lighting ('cuz you can't always park how you need to light a bad guys car/accident scene), directing traffic w/arrowstick (instead of a person) just to name a few. And like others have said, no fire/EMS vehicle needs to be stealthy, but LE in certain aspects (interdiction, surveillance) it is almost a necessity.

As for POV's, the vehicle should follow the law for the state/municipality first and foremost, dept. policy after that (assuming it follows the law). Anything after that should be determined based on vehicle use. Primarily responding to the station less than 5-10 minutes away?, go interior if you want incognito. Responding mostly to scenes or using the vehicle as any kind of traffic diverting/control device?, full bar (again assuming law allows) all the way.

 

[Carlos SpicyWeiner]

3. and is ever used on any highway/interstate (traffic speeds over 50mph).

I disagree.. I think if anything the interstate is the place where a full lightbar is needed the least. No need for off axis.

 

[Sparky_911]

That is true, that statement was meant with the "number 1 or 2" criteria being met first. If your primary patrol/response area is an interstate you really need good rear "don't hit me" warning, interior or exterior. That said with either a full bar or interior ILBs you can shut down features not needed if on the interstate.

Personally, I would rather have a loaded roof bar with the capabilities if I need them (that guy named Murphy and his law is always lurking) than vice versa.

 

[Sigma Safety]

I disagree.. I think if anything the interstate is the place where a full lightbar is needed the least. No need for off axis.

Except if you park sideways or at an angle to block a lane of traffic.

 

[Sigma Safety]

...my POV - used primarily for occasional night-time response from home - is (almost) slicktop....
Bill

Bill,

Keep in mind that this type of vehicle won't meet SAE or NFPA standards. Yes, it may move traffic fine, but if you get in a collision and someone takes you to court, you will not have met any of the industry standards so you can't say in court that you had lights that were bright enough. Sure, they may be plenty bright but if you can't PROVE it, you could be liable.

Last week I had a call from an Ass't District Attorney from WA state (yes, he called me even though I'm in Canada). They use a Star warning beacon on the back of their street sweeper. A driver hit the back of the sweeper and is trying to sue the county, claiming the lights weren't bright enough. We determined that the Star beacon is a Class 1 beacon, so it met the WA state standard as well as the SAE standard for emergency vehicle lighting. Thus, the county now can go to court and say that the light WAS bright enough and met all applicable requirements/standards.

If the county had chose a non-compliant light that didn't meet any SAE standards, then the county would have no way of proving that their light was bright enough.

So, following standards a) gives you some assurance that your warning system meets a good standard and b) gives you a leg to stand on in court if you get into a collision.

I'm sure you follow NFPA standards for your clothing and many other safety items in your department. Why not your vehicles, which arguably is one of the most critical pieces of safety equipment as it protects not only you, but other motorists, and also the people who are at the call you are en route to?

 

[billforbush]

Leftcoastmark, you have a valid point. All of my equipment is SAE Class 1 Whelen and I do include a roof light to comply with state law. I do not, however, try to meet NFPA on a POV. Good idea but may be a little overkill. I can't argue the liability factor though. Thanks for your insight

Bill

 

[Sigma Safety]

Many people are not aware that NFPA has a "Small Vehicle" spec, and it is very different from the large apparatus spec. If you are thinking that you don't want to make your POV compliant to the NFPA Apparatus/Large Vehicle spec, I can't blame you!

The NFPA Small Vehicle is a very easy standard to meet. For a vehicle under 25' long, you simply have to have an NFPA-compliant lightbar and a side-facing light as far forward as possible, about bumper height (18"-48" above the ground). That's it.

There are technically still 4 zones up and 4 zones down, but in the Small Vehicle spec, those are all combined into the single lightbar. This assumes that you don't have a raised canopy/cap on the rear of the truck or something that blocks light projected to the rear, of course.

The front side-facing fender light can be any NFPA Lower-Level compliant light, including the Federal Impaxx3 (red). There are many NFPA compliant rooftop lightbars available from various vendors.

You can see more in this PDF; http://www.fedsig.com/pdf/NFPA_1901_Overview_Small_Apparatus_2-10.pdf

 

[Carlos SpicyWeiner]

Except if you park sideways or at an angle to block a lane of traffic.

No lightbar alone is sufficient enough for that purpose. Still comes down to total vehicle setup.

 

[billforbush]

Thanks guys

 

[bullfrog4ever]

As for POV's, the vehicle should follow the law for the state/municipality first and foremost, dept. policy after that (assuming it follows the law).

Unfortunately for Indiana, my state, I technically can't run a single LED. My whole setup is technically illegal. Our laws states we must run all halogen rotating and/or flashing lights. Luckily, the officers don't care and want us to be safe. But if you're wanting to follow to the letter of the law, we're about 15+ years behind for our courtesy lighting.
Just another thought there, I'm not sure who elses state may not technically allow LED's.

With that said, I believe in the Fire Service, no vehicle should ever be slick top. For PD, it needs to have adequate lighting in all directions if a slick top. Otherwise, I'm still a fan of full bars.

 

[STT Installer]

I disagree.. I think if anything the interstate is the place where a full lightbar is needed the least. No need for off axis.

As long as you never run code at the on or off ramps.

 

[Wolfie]

If you wanna be both stealthy and lit up, go with an old school clear lightbar with filters on the rotators. That, or get one of the slimmer LED bars. Whether one goes slick top or roof mounted, I am a big fan of wigwags on the bumper. There is no reason your bumper needs to enter the intersection before your lights.

 

[CHIEFOPS]

There's a distinct difference between a "slick-top" EV and an unmarked EV, which each have their place in public safety