It's come to this? Pay a fee, or your house burns?

Jarred J.

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 21, 2010
11,580
Shelbyville, TN
I think what he is trying to say is that lights (wind solar), water( wells), sewer,(sump holes) trash, (burn it compost, etc.) etc... can be taken care of individually now adays due to technology, but that most people should have fire service provided cause not everyone wants to buy a $500,000 truck plus equipment etc to fight their own fires.
 

Stendec

Member
May 21, 2010
816
Jarred J. said:
I think what he is trying to say is that lights (wind solar), water( wells), sewer,(sump holes) trash, (burn it compost, etc.) etc... can be taken care of individually now adays due to technology, but that most people should have fire service provided cause not everyone wants to buy a $500,000 truck plus equipment etc to fight their own fires.

Perzaktly: The .gov does for the community what the individuals can't do for themselves: maintain a military, negotiate treaties, install aids to navigation, maintain an air traffic control system, and do the fire/police/ems stuff. I may have to pay a fee to a ramp operator if I want to land and park at his airport, but i don't have to pay the FAA for the navigation assistance to get there or the CAP, military rescue coordination center or Coast Guard if I don't make it there.


I'm hoping that this is an odd situation; it's the first time I've heard of a county or township not providing an essential service to unincorporated areas, or contracting, as a county or township, for those services from someone else. There are a handful of designated fire districts in this area, but they get some tax support from the area they serve. I know of one community that contracts with a private, sort of for profit fire company, but they are also supported by taxes, and residents really can't opt out.


"We" all have a vested interested in fire/ems/le protection, because in the bigger picture it effects the quality of life in the community, and bottom line, the value of living there. It effects insurance rates, real estate values, the ability to attract businesses or tourists, school quality, environmental quality, and down the line, our jobs.


And I do believe in self reliance. Along with insurance, smoke detectors and strategically located and regularly checked fire extinguishers, I keep wildland fire handtools at the place along with a blade for the tractor, so that if it comes to it and I'm sufficiently adrenalized, I should have a handline started around the homestead should it be needed. It doesn't push nearly enough GPH and needs electricty, but if worst comes to worst, I can pitch a submersible pump into the spa and tap 500 gallons of already hot water. But I'm under no illusion that any of this will be all I need to stop a house- or wild-fire. And I live just down the road from the VFD.


Sure, I'd love to retire and live way out in the mountains where there aren't any pesky humans and if there is a fire they'll will probably smash my hermit shack with a slurry drop, but can you imagine being a real-estate agent in a place without any police or fire protection? "Oh, by the way, if you ever want to see a fireman, get out your checkbook." It sounds remarkably like paying protection to the Mafia.
 

Stendec

Member
May 21, 2010
816
Pursuit said:
There is a mile stretch of roadway that my local fire department will not respond to because the residents refuse to pay the mandatory taxes for the services. So if you have a house on fire there, you might as well bring out the marshmallows, and begin your campfire stories.

If they are actual taxes, why hasn't the county/state/city gone after them legally?
 

TNFF412N

Member
May 22, 2010
387
San Antonio, Texas
I cant find the one i want to quote but he said it was a moral and ethical problem with that department..... I agree that chief should be looked at, i would not listen to a senior person in my department that did this, but hen again i wouldnt live in an area like this. everybody wants the government to do so much for them but are unwilling to pay for it. I live in the county and dont expect the same as living in the city. But i also pay far less taxes out here then if lived in the city 19 miles away. Our fire department gets little funding from the county, they pay fuel and maint. insurance , and if we need anything else we have to raise the money or go before the commity and ask for it. Rarely do we get whats needed. We have annual fund raisers and picture drives and can make 10-12 thousand a year but when it comes to equipment that is nothing. We get by, but we are often asked why we didnt respond faster, why our 1976 back up pumper took so long to get to the otherside of our district. We have 5500 homes in our district alone. If we got to charge jut 35 dollars a year we could get 192,500 in funding.... We could pay to have our equipment upgraded. We could build a structure to house our equipment correctly. But we do what we can and help anybody that calls or needs it. The county just south of me in Alabama ges funding from cigarette sales. They have too much money... if that is possible. I think that there is a good middle and the folks in that fire district as doing what they can and tis is just a bad outcome from it...
 
May 21, 2010
153
Calhoun, TN
I don't think I could not provide assistance at a fire as a firefighter. Actually I would be ashamed to have just watched someones home burn. Heck, as a paramedic, I provide assistance to people all the time who have gotten themselves into a situation that they knew better than to get into. I know good & well most of those people don't have insurance, but treat them anyway.


Anyway, it sounds like this would be a good time to raise those county land taxes a little, maybe look into a grant or two, & start a VFD for that county. Yeah, they might bitch about the increase in taxes, but conversely thier homeowners insurance should drop some when the ISO rating goes from a 10 to a 9.
 

tnems7

Member
May 21, 2010
407
USA Nashville Tennessee
Some of you are missing the point as to what is required of local governments and what is provided. County governments in Tennessee are not required to provide fire departments or ambulance service. But fortunately, all Tennessee counties do make provisions for ambulance service, but county fire departments are only operated in a few counties, and are funded with property taxes. Elsewhere, volunteer fire departments have been formed to provide fire services and most receive a small contribution from local governments. A lot of revenue for ambulance service is generated by billing patients for ambulance transport. But Fire services can't usually bill after the fact.


Fire Service History : When Benjamin Franklin helped form fire companies in the colonial United States, buildings displayed a "fire mark" to show the owner paid dues to support that fire company. If they responded and the Fire Mark was not displayed, then the hosepipe wasn't used!


And for Stendec and others, Tennessee does not have an income tax, and government services supported by property and sales taxes are subject to JURISDICTION. A Sheriff's deputy in one county usually doesn't write traffic citations in another jurisdiction or respond outside the boundaries except for mutual aid. Same way for fire departments. The fact that the town of South Fulton would respond outside their jurisdiction for a subscription fee means it would have a contractual obligation. And the property owners who want the services are obligated to pay. (Wonder if the homeowners subscribed to cable or satellite TV? They might pay that, but skipped subscription dues for fire services.


Within the City, fire protection is a governmental service. Does Obion County have a messed up fire response system? - Yes, but that doesn't mean that there are not other bad examples elsewhere in the U.S. And to the question -would they respond for a wreck. Probably if a law enforcement officer requested services, because such response is addressed in Tennessee's mutual aid laws and would likely involve life safety issues.


And the Fire Chief of South Fulton is trying to get the system changed. Hopefully, Obion County will begin to see operating fire services is something that is expected of local government.
 

NPS Ranger

Member
May 21, 2010
1,988
Penn's Woods
tnems7 said:
Fire Service History : When Benjamin Franklin helped form fire companies in the colonial United States, buildings displayed a "fire mark" to show the owner paid dues to support that fire company. If they responded and the Fire Mark was not displayed, then the hosepipe wasn't used!

This was discussed on copcar.com, I found it interesting:

The fire marks story is just that a good story.........actually

<The misconception that volunteer fire companies put out fires only on buildings that displayed a fire mark arises from the fact that some articles on fire marks do not make a distinction between the English and American relationship to fire marks. The early English fire insurance companies originally used fire marks to identify properties they insured because each insurance company had its own fire brigade. These private insurance brigades only fought fires on properties identified by their employers’ mark or badge. In England, the insurance companies originated before the firefighting companies. In America, it was the reverse – the volunteer fire companies were in existence before the first fire insurance company was organized. They fought fires whether or not a building displayed a fire mark. Even the literature that recognizes this distinction does not always follow through. It tends to generalize and equate the American experience with the English for the sake of the story.>


<Research shows that it is only in the 20th century when the idea first appears that a volunteer fire company would not fight a fire if there were no fire mark. As early as 1929 the Franklin Fire Insurance Company in its 100th anniversary history states that in the early years in Philadelphia "…each insurance company maintained its own fire company." With the proliferation of insurance companies, it became difficult for each company to recognize its own fire. Each insurance company then adopted its own "house mark" to identify properties it insured. When the fire alarm sounded "…all of the fire companies would respond, but only the company whose house mark appeared on the house in danger fought the flames." 1>


1 Jerome B. Gray, "One Hundred Years", The Franklin Fire Insurance Company, 1929, p. 44 ff.
 

Hoot

New Member
May 21, 2010
13
New Jersey
so the house mark was for each insurance company? but isn't fire insurance, or homeowner's insurance still a "paid subscription" for services needed? so if I didn't have the insurance i wouldn't have a house mark and then nobody hooks up their hose? same deal, no?
 

NPS Ranger

Member
May 21, 2010
1,988
Penn's Woods
Insurance is not a paid subscription for services in real time like EMS or fire, it's payment for insurance to reimburse you after the fact. I think the point of the article was that the "legend" of only providing service to American homes in the 18th-19th centuries if they had a mark, was a legend that first cropped up in the 20th century. Don't know if I believe it or not.


The only service I can think of that is remotely similar, was the NYC Fire Patrol which was founded in 1803 and only disbanded in 2006. That was funded entirely by insurance companies and would respond to fires to place tarps and overhaul, to minimize property damage. Don't know how it was in the early days but in modern times they would respond no matter which insurance you had, or whether you had any at all.
 

TNFF412N

Member
May 22, 2010
387
San Antonio, Texas
This is from one of the Chief's with facts about what happened In Obion


County as I received.


To all the departments in the West Tn Fire Chiefs Association. Please


read.


If you have questions; please call. We are literally taking a beating


in


Obion County. Whether you approve or not, please read so that you at


least


can respond with the facts.


The events of the Cranick fire in Obion County Tennessee on Wednesday


September 29th, 2010, have with no pun intended; created a "media fire


storm."


So much "finger pointing" has ensued, that the true facts of the


incident


have been blown out of proportion. The firefighters in this county are


taking a beating when it is not their fault; nor is it the cities


responsibility. It's a county problem.


The first point that needs to be noted is that Obion County Tennessee


does


not have a county fire department. Secondly, no county tax revenues are


even ear marked for county fire protection.


The county is made up of 8 municipalities which do provide fire


protection


to its city residents, through city property taxes, which fund their


respective fire departments.


Three of theses cities, South Fulton; Kenton and Union City allow their


departments to respond outside the city limits by way of a Subscription


Service which charges a $75 yearly fee to receive fire protection.


After


they respond to a "members" fire, the member is billed $500 for the


response.


Why the $75 and a charge of $500? This can be compared to any


insurance.


You have a premium; the $75 and then you have a deductable; the $500.


The


policy, of these cities is that if the fee isn't paid, then the fire


department does not respond. The only exception being; life


endangerment.


(A report that someone may be inside the home.)


These fees help offset the cost of equipment and manpower, paid for by


the


city tax payers to help fight fires in the county.


The remaining 5 city fire departments have for years responded into the


county without a subscription service, banking on collecting fees for


their


services, "after the fact." The problem has been, that once those


people


have been provided the service; they often seem to choose not to


reimburse.


Attempting to charge on a per call basis does not generate the needed


funds


nor does it give county residents an incentive to support the cities, if


they can wait until they actually have a fire to pay anything.


I wish my car insurance company would let me "wait" until I had an


accident


before I had to pay my premium. Why should fire service be looked at


any


different? The fire service has gotten expensive just like anything


else.


If it is not run as a business it won't be around for anybody.


Those city fathers have reached the point where they can no longer 'foot


the


bill" for county residents using city tax payers monies.


The fire chiefs have spent four working with the county to address the


problem Nothing short of a true fire tax will remedy the situation


completely. But for now the county at this time is considering everyone


going to a subscription service. Yes, this would help fund the


remaining 5


departments, but it will not keep what happened to South Fulton from


happening again.


No firefighter wants to see a home go up in flames; but especially for


the


volunteer departments, the cake sales and fish fries just don't cut it


anymore. One set of gear to out fit a firefighter can exceed $3,000. A


fire truck easily costs more than a quarter of a million dollars. How


many


cakes do you think it will take? And who again is paying for this? The


"city" taxpayer.


Mr. Cranick admitted he didn't pay for the service. He thought they


would


come anyway. I feel because of insurance companies we do not take care


of


things as we should because we know they will bail us out. Lawyers, have


caused us to want to blame everyone but are selves and our country has


gotten to a point where personal responsibility is no longer expected.


It's


not a good situation here. As I said, the firefighters are taking a


beating


for something they have no control over. They do not set policy.


This is a county problem and it is being forced on the cities.


As of today the IAFF has condemned the South Fulton Fire Department.


This


is sad when our own people jump on the band wagon without having the


facts


they need. We currently have a call put in to them but as of yet have


not


responded.


Some ask why I seem to be stepping up on the soap box in defense of


South


Fulton. Their policy is the same as ours. This problem could very well


have been ours.


Sincerely,


Kelly E Edmison


Chief of Department


Union City, TN
 

TX-LEO

Member
May 24, 2010
139
San Antonio
My Opinion is that the fire dept should have put out the fire, then billed the home-owner $1000.00, or whatever their actual costs were to respond.


If this was not in their S.O.P, it should have been.


ETA: and if they don't pay, sue them for payment.
 

surf_kat

Member
May 28, 2010
58
SE AZ
Stendec said:
We aren't in a normal business. I understand all too well that emergency services cost money, but so does NOT providing them, let alone the moral and ethical implications. Should I not help a little old lady change a flat on the highway if she is from out of county/state because she doesn't contribute anything to cover expenses? Should I do it for her, but then charge her? Should I tell her to take responsibility for herself, even if she doesn't have the physical ability or knowledge to change the tire? Should I tell her that she should have known she could have had a flat at any time and if she was responsible she would have joined AAA? No, I'm going to change the tire, because that's what public servants do. And if I rip my pants or bark a knuckle, those expenses are part of doing business.

Essentially privatizing public service won't work. Do we want Blackwater, Halliburton and KBR to sign up with RuralMetro and AMR? As for the other examples, like water, electricity and all that, I can choose to live off the grid. The tools and technology exist that allow any individual to be self sufficient when it comes to things like water, power and food. But few people are going to be able to afford the equipment or garner the knowledge to fight their own house fire. even having smoke detectors and extinguishers.


I understand that "home" external defibrillators are coming on market? How many people are going to get one of those?

Hey, if Blackwater signs up with AMR and Rural/Metro, I bet they wouldn't stage! :eek: (yeah, I went there... those guys offered me $150k/year to work for them as a medic overseas)


Most government agencies, especially local and state, are facing budget cuts and crises. Providing services outside of their tax base is an issue. It sounds like this fire district had a 'subscription' based service for areas outside of it's tax base. The homeowner refused that service and ended up losing his home. The ethical/moral question is 'should the firefighters have fought the fire anyways...'. Most people and most firefighters would say yes. But the funding implication is huge. WHY would someone pay for a subscription when the fire department will still respond to put out the fire?


What needs to be looked at is potentially a fee for service. A person can opt in for a yearly subscription of $75 or they take their chances on having an incident and receiving a bill for services rendered. That bill may include direct costs (mileage, equipment, personnel time) and indirect (part of the cost of training, staffing, maintaining and administering a fire department as well). If people know this upfront, will they chip in or will they roll the dice?


Now what happens if we say no matter what the fire department will respond, assess the emergency and take corrective action if needed? We have something like a hospital ER that doesn't turn down anyone but 1) limits it's actions and 2) raises the fees on all the other users who do pay in order to cover the costs by those who don't/won't.
 

JHEATHJR

Member
May 24, 2010
32
Buckeye, AZ
My understanding is that this way some type of mobile home. Mobile home fires are very difficult, if not pointless to fight. I am all for animals, but I am not going to endanger the life of my guys to save an animal that was probably already dead before they even got there.


I know some people think this is such an awful thing but think about this:


1) This house was outside the city limits. The city offered the services to those outside the city limits for a fee. I can understand that. The city is paying for the equipment and services for the residents of the city who pay city taxes, the city has no obligation to anyone not living in the city limits. The fact that the city offered fire services to those in the county was pretty cool. Dude did not pay for the services, why should he be surprised when this happens?


2)As I mentioned before it was a mobile home, and those generally go up very fast. You figure by the time the city responded to the county it was probably already rockin and rolling. Nothing more than a surround and drown as long as you know there is no one in the home.


3) If one of the city employees gets hurt fighting this fire, it is the city that has to pay for the employees medical coverage, workers comp, the cost of having someone fill that employess place while he or she is out and all for someone who does not live in the city that did not pay the fee they required.


4)It is the city having to pay the insurance and fuel for the trucks that respond. It is the city having to make payments on the truck that they respond in. The city pays for the upkeep and maintenance on the truck, and the city pays for the building the truck is housed in.


I do not have a problem with what the FD did.

Agree. No Human Life Was In Danger, No Foul.


(I did see the story on MSNBC {Gag/Puke} and it seemed to me the Guy did not want to totally admit He was in the wrong, but it was there it split words.)
 

Rofocowboy84

Member
May 20, 2010
1,161
Centre County, PA
Luismariadarlene said:
I think it's bs to pay for fire protection

So you'd rather all of the fire companies go bankrupt and not be able to help anybody? This is the exact attitude that causes these problems. My home company is self supporting, we don't get any money from the borough. We live off fund drives and BBQ's and such. If everyone stopped caring, guess what would happen....
 

Stendec

Member
May 21, 2010
816
Rofocowboy84 said:
So you'd rather all of the fire companies go bankrupt and not be able to help anybody?

That isn't it. If this is Tenn. law, that needs to be changed; granted under that system, the FD may have been "correct" in not fighting the fire, but that doesn't mean it was "right." Chances are they will have a greater chance of going bankrupt now due to loss of public support.


Police departments go out of "business," too. The call volume and need for service doesn't justify the operational and capital expenses. Combine that with a crappy economy, and any of us can be screwed.


Does this county provide LE protection to unincorporated areas, or does it go to a state agency?
 

embe78

Member
May 20, 2010
68
NEW JERSEY
this is copied form a diff website i belong to


That county is dirt poor and there isn't enough revenue for a county fire dept. They pay no taxes for fire services, therefore the city of South Fulton offers subscription fire service for those who do want protection. These folks didn't pay, so they didn't get it. Simple as that.





It's about 3 hours NW of me and about 1.5 hours SW of where I grew up.






Here's the deal. The house was out in the county, a rural area that had no fire protection. The city of South Fulton generously offers fire protection subscriptions for the non-protected area. The folks didn't pay their subscription.






The department couldn't act on the fire because there was no subscription. If they had the city of South Fulton and the fire deptartment would have had legal liability issues. The city taxpayers would have been pissed that their tax dollars were being used for people who don't pay.






If they had attempted to put the fire out others who pay the subscription would stop paying, noting that they would get free fire service anyway. They would quit paying. This would eventually cause the fire deptartment to bankrupt their budget, get the tax payers into a frenzy, and cause the fire dept to have to stop responding outside of the city all together. Nobody in the county would have fire services at that point.






Most of the firefighters who are slamming the decision are from large cities and have no clue how dirt poor rural areas have to operate. I hate subscription services but the residents can't afford to be taxed enough to create a rural volunteer fire dept. Outside of South Fulton, the area is generally dirt poor.






While it sounds cruel they had the responsibility to their employers (tax payers of South Fulton, mayor, city lawyers) to do exactly what they did.






The funny part is that the guy offered to pay the $75 after the fact to put it out. That's like offering to pay for car insurance after you crash.






BTW, I didn't read the link so I don't know if this was included in it... The son, who was freeloading off his parents (an adult still living with mom and dad), went to the fire station and assaulted the fire chief. The chief had to be transported to the hospital. The owners of the house are not mad at the fire department. They understand that they didn't pay the subscription and it is their own fault. The freeloading son is running around spouting off his mouth, attending town hall meetings, etc. badmouthing firefighters and wanting change (change: meaning free fire services without him having to pay more taxes or subscriptions).






Wanting everything for nothing is pandemic in this country. It's sad but we are on the downward spiral exactly like the Roman empire and all other great societies before us. We will fall much faster than other great societies because they had slavery to do the menial jobs which sustained their societies for hundreds of years. Now we have uneducated dropouts (by choice) who refuse to work for anything less than $20 an hour and claim they "can't find a job". We have a tire company that opened in Jackson, TN, about two hours west of me, last year with over 400 positions. They are running understaffed because they can't fill all the jobs. Almost every applicant fails the drug test or turns his nose at an entry level job that still pays double to triple the minimum wage.
 

WPD8908

Member
May 21, 2010
642
NW Ohio
TX-LEO said:
My Opinion is that the fire dept should have put out the fire, then billed the home-owner $1000.00, or whatever their actual costs were to respond.

If this was not in their S.O.P, it should have been.


ETA: and if they don't pay, sue them for payment.

If they wont pay 75.00 how they gonna pay 1000.00


Sue them.. you wont get squat ..
 

dg0223

Member
Feb 20, 2011
703
USA/Texas
Make no mistake, gentlemen, the entire world is burning...


And we're all just watching it burn to the ground.
 

Station 3

Member
May 21, 2010
3,395
Edinburg Texas
I dont have a problem with this the home owner dident pay out of there own greed so let em burn.
 

fp13-2

Member
May 20, 2010
358
Harrisburg, PA
Station 3 said:
I dont have a problem with this the home owner dident pay out of there own greed so let em burn.

This situation was a little different, their trailer didn't qualify for homeowner's coverage, and they were told they couldn't get the fire coverage without homeowner's insurance, so they were in a catch-22.


But on the one last year...yeah, you don't pay, tough luck. You gambled, you lost. Deal.
 

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