Ladder truck question

MATT3045

Member
May 23, 2010
269
Akron Ohio area
My "B" job fire department took over fire and EMS protection for another community back in October. Currently it is just a contracted service, with the option to merger completely at the end of the contract. A few weeks ago they brought it to our boards attention that they would like to have a ladder truck of some sorts. They feel there is no need for 3 engines plus 2 tender/tankers. So now, we are looking to sell or trade in our 2000 KME Engine. Right now, manufacturer does not make a difference. It will have a pump and water on it, functioning as a quint. What are your feelings on:


Stick vs tower?


Rear mount vs mid mount?


Length?


I honestly have not used a ladder truck of any sorts personally other than in an occasional training. New city we cover has several hotels and commercial buildings, plus a new corporate 700,000+ sq ft building going in soon. We will have the need for it. Thanks for opinions, just gathering ideas.
 

FSEP

Member
Nov 11, 2012
844
DE
Seriously though, it all depends on what is within your jurisdiction. What are you tallest buildings? Do you tend to do roof operations where a ladder could be used? How tall are the power lines in your jurisdiction? What kind of forestry is within your jurisdiction? Will this be just a ladder truck, or a muilti purpose truck? Do your guys want to be real truckies and use a stick? :D


There are a lot of questions that must be answered before you buy a ladder truck.. I know companies that have bought the biggest and most badd ass ladder you could find... but it wasn't practical for what they needed..
 

Donslock

Member
Dec 18, 2010
320
USA, South Dakota
Also look at what your infra stucture will support, ie, will the length of the truck be prohibited due to narrow street and will the water supply support the truck.
 

tvsjr

Member
Oct 7, 2012
611
TX
Figure out who the equipment guru (shop foreman, whatever) is in the nearest big city to you. Go ask their thoughts, and what they consider when they're purchasing apparatus. They'll bring up a hundred issues that you haven't even thought about yet.


Think about apparatus height and length vs. your stations. Nothing more embarrassing than getting your shiny new T/L home and discovering you can't put it in the bay.
 

MATT3045

Member
May 23, 2010
269
Akron Ohio area
We now cover 3 communities, one (Boston Twp) of which is pretty much solely National Park (so 2/3 rural), half of it has a water supply. Second village (Peninsula) we cover has some house close to each other, a few tighter streets, and no water supply. The 3rd village (Boston Hts) has some commercial and industrial, 5 housing developments with larger homes, and most of it has a water supply. All of this is in roughly 35 sq miles. All at one time was Boston Twp, until the 2 villages split off.


The truck will be kept at our station 2 in Boston Hts, we already know that it will take some remodeling to make it work. Even though our station 1 is newer, bigger, and will accommodate a ladder truck, we have to play politics and give them what they want. They are paying for it.


Our MABAS for our Industrial/Large Commercial has a ladder response automatic in the 1st box and every other box has one.


Residential/Small Commercial Hydrant MABAS has a ladder respond in the second box and every one below.


Residential/Small Commercial NON Hydrant does not have any ladders, only engines and tenders. We can special call if needed.


Like I said, this is just me spitballing, we do not have a ladder truck at either job currently. I personally suggested a elevated waterway truck with an emergency escape only type ladder, like the e-one 50ft teleboom or pierce sky-boom. Chief said if we are going to get one, we mine as well get a real ladder/quint.
 

Skinny26

Member
May 23, 2010
41
Burlington County, NJ
Do you have the man power to street more than one truck for a fire? In my area the term quint is used as a false sense of capabilities. Once an apparatus is committed to doing one job, all other functions should become unavailable. If you have the manpower I'd recommend a straight truck, no pump or water 100' rear mount straight stick.. stuff it with as much truck/rescue company equipment as you can and become good at doing truck work. If not, my opinion is a 75' stick on a truck set up for mostly engine duties. A quint does a lot of things, but can only do one of them well at a time.


my .02 FWIW.
 

dale cohen

Member
May 25, 2010
199
cleveland ohio
we have a sutphen ladder truck with a bucket.


our main reason for the bucket was our 4 story apartment building.


we felt it would be better to put grandma in a bucket and not have to have her walk down a ladder.


you have to worry about setbacks to see if you can reach what you want to reach.


my suggestion is if you have good relationships with other departments that have ladders is see if they can bring them over and set up at your target buildings and then you can actually see what may work best for you


dale cohen


acting chief


woodmere fd


station 216-292-4103


option 2
 

NPS Ranger

Member
May 21, 2010
1,989
Penn's Woods
Skinny26 said:
In my area the term quint is used as a false sense of capabilities. Once an apparatus is committed to doing one job, all other functions should become unavailable. If you have the manpower I'd recommend a straight truck, no pump or water 100' rear mount straight stick.. stuff it with as much truck/rescue company equipment as you can and become good at doing truck work.

Although I tend to go along with this line of thinking, if you're trading in an engine & losing a pump as part of the deal, I can see the logic in buying a quint. Quints get heavy quickly, you said you have a large rural area as well as some narrow streets. If you go for a 100 foot ladder it will give you a tandem axle truck which may/may not exceed the weight rating of some rural bridges, it will certainly make it harder to maneuver in narrow streets. It will also add to fuel & maintenance. You can get a 75 foot ladder with fullsize tank & pump & still stay with a single rear axle, unless you have really tall buildings/large setbacks in your district, I think this would serve your needs best.
 

justavillain

Member
Mar 7, 2013
1,010
Grand Rapids
I was the 3rd seater on a quint for 2 years and I've seen a 75ft stick used a lot more than the 100ft platform we also have.


The reason I like a quint a little more as a stick is they usually have 2 riggers so less time to set up, the rolling mass of the platform is not there, you can also get away with a single axle and save on length. Plus the option for rescue vs water way puts the master only 1/2 way up so it keeps less stuff in that narrow area.


Some departments I've seen opt for less water to save on weight turning an nfpa quint to an engine. But it still works.


My vote is a mid panel, 4 seater, 75ft single axle
 

MATT3045

Member
May 23, 2010
269
Akron Ohio area
Ultimately, the truck is going to be a quint, as in it will have a pump and water. I personally don't think we need the truck, but don't think we will turn down the truck if it is a free gift. Fulltime agency, has several corporate parks, 10+ large home developments, numerous large industrial/large commercial locations , and half of a Marathon distribution center. Yet, there is no ladder there. That is what mutual aid is for. Maybe I just feel that way because I really do not have much experience in aerials.
 

tvsjr

Member
Oct 7, 2012
611
TX
It sounds like you have the territory to justify it, and if it's free, why not?


Just make sure you have a comprehensive training program in place. Driving a truck/quint/TL is quite different than a standard engine, and operating one is most certainly different. You don't want someone to hop in your brand new quint and take the ladder off the top on a low bridge, etc.


If you're going with a quint, don't try to get the biggest of everything. You add a 100' platform to a quint, big water tank, big pump, etc. and you quickly get to a vehicle that's too large to actually use. If you're going quint, look at a 75' stick. If you want a T/L, lose the pump. Just my opinion.
 

MATT3045

Member
May 23, 2010
269
Akron Ohio area
It looks as though we are leaning towards a 75 or 100 rear mount quint. It is actually cheaper for us to get one of those and have the building modified vs getting a mid mount truck and not modifying the station. We are pretty lucky with the make up of our department, most members are on other FDs FT and are able to contribute a lot to what we need or don't need. Our last engine purchased was only a 2 man commercial cab, because we only staff with 2 guys 95% of the time. If we have more manpower than that, we take one of the custom cab engines. Saved a ton of money, and we are not as concerned about the cab as we are with the pump and the rest of the truck.
 

336

Member
Dec 2, 2012
517
Pender County, N.C.
You should look into the Houston-Galveston Area Council Buy (H-GAC) Government Procurement Program. It may or may not work for your needs and other deals are available but it is a pretty interesting arrangement.
 

tnems7

Member
May 21, 2010
407
USA Nashville Tennessee
What are the building codes in the response area concerning multistory buildings? The height of structures and ISO ratings usually triggered the need for bigger ladders in Tennessee towns. There are a lot of training evolutions for a straight ladder, and using a bucket will decrease the load capability on the end of a ladder. A former shop chief with Knoxville showed me several reasons the 65 or 75 foot ladder is preferential for residential fires, and some of the bigger trucks wound up over the fire at industrial blazes and had cables melt and had to have the rigs xrayed and rerated. Bigger is no always better!
 

bobcoop06

Member
May 25, 2010
175
Indiana
FSEP said:
Stick, rear and bigger the better... Done and done...

Hopefully that's a joke, if not, it's probably the worst advice I've ever seen!


There are a ton of questions that need to answered and considered before you make a million dollar decision that you will most likely be stuck with for years to come. Don't get sucked into picking what's "best" by what another department uses, or what somebody thinks looks the coolest.


How tall are your biggest buildings/houses? Primarily residential, commercial, or both? How tight are you streets, alleys, and parking lots? A 75' quint works well for small to large residential ventilation and master stream operations. They are good for quick setup, quick rescues, and for making a couple saw cuts. If you are going into tight side streets or subdivisions, they are more maneuverable and turn tight with their single rear axle. They also set up a bit quicker with only one set of outriggers. The ladders are lighter weight and might be bit easier to drive if you are not always going to have the same guys driving your truck. With a straight stick you don't have to worry about an extra six foot of platform hanging past the front bumper, or the rear bumper for a midmount. A rear mount truck will have a higher clearance height,so a midmount may be a better option if you have low bridges or walkways in your district. A midmount is also more versatile for ladder placement, especially when hitting the corner of a building. On the flip side, driving a rear mount platform is trickier because you have to watch the front end, and the tail swing as you turn corners. Midmounts don't have as much out front but you have a lot more tail swing. It's pretty embarrassing to be looking forward while you take out a parked car behind you as you turn a corner!


If you have a lot of commercial in your district a platform may be the way to go when it comes to running elevated master streams. Is your area hydranted, or do you rely on shuttle operations for your water supply? If you don't have the water supply, elevated master streams are probably out of the question for any length of time. Do you want a "just in case" aerial, or will be running a dedicated truck company on all fire, commerical alarm, and rescue responses? What kind of equipment will you need to carry? A small quint doesn't carry any more than a typical engine, whereas a big truck can accommodate all sorts of equipment. Also, will you be using it for any special operations? Do you do confined space, or high or low angle rope rescue? A platform works better as a rigging point and high point anchor for raise/lower and rappel systems. Also for rigging a stokes onto the platform for rescues. Do you have a lot of parapet walls in your area? You can attach a roof ladder to a platform to access behind a parapet wall.


For dedicated truck company ops you will need a full complement of ground ladders, vent equipment, hand tools, and forcible entry equipment. Maybe even salvage and overhaul equipment too. If you are supplied by hydrants and will be grabbing your own water supply, you may want to think about some supply hose. My truck company just replaced a 2001 HME 109' straight stick with a 102' KME (I know...) tower ladder. The TL is much more versaitile than the stick was. Our Truck has two master streams on the platform capable of flowing over 2000 gpm. We also carry ground ladders: a 35' extension, two 24' extension, a 24' folding ladder, two 18' roof ladders, one 16' roof ladder, a 14' extension ladder, a 10' attic ladder, and two Little Giants. We carry two each gas and electric PPV fans, a smoke ejector, a Petrogen torch, one 20" chainsaw, two 18" Cutters Edge roof chainsaws, two k-12's one with a metal cutting blade and one with a multi-purpose diamond blade, and a 14" Ventmaster saw. We also carry swift water equipment (PFD's, Mustang suits, throw ropes, 300' rope bags, boots and helmets) and rope equipment. We can rig a stokes, set up a raise/lower system, set up a 3:1 or a Z drag system, anything more gets a Tactical Rescue rig. We also carry 600' of 5" LDH and 400' of 3" supply hose. Don't forget a full complement of hand tools and forcible entry tools, along with tarps and shovels.


I have also been assigned to a 75' quint that functioned as en engine company with a ladder on top. If was functional for an occasional use master stream or vent operation, but other than that I would not call it a "Truck Company". I would spend a lot of time studying and driving your district, figuring out where and when you may use an aerial and then think about what would work best for that situation. Contact your local/regional apparatus dealers and have them bring you demos. Look at every type of truck you can. Set them up, play with them. Most importantly, drive them. Take them down all of your streets, take them back into subdivisions, take them around your factories and commercial structures. See where they will and will not fit. See how close you can get to buildings, see where various lengths of ladder will reach. Then take all of that into consideration.


When you get the truck, practice and play. Practice, practice, practice. Drive it everywhere. Train on it for AT LEAST a month before you put it in service. Don't train until you get it right, train until you CANT get it wrong! You want confident, competent engineers. You want them to be able to set it up in their sleep. When the stuff hits the fan, you don't want to be playing fiddle-fuck around when it's game time. We can go from driving down the road, coming to a complete stop, setting the brakes, wheel chocks, outriggers and have the aerial flying in 1:55. It takes a lot of time do this stuff safely so you need to practice. Practice laddering every commercial building in your district, with their permission, of course. Then when that call comes out at 3 am and you roll up with smoke showing, you already know what buttons and levers to hit without thinking about it.


I'm sure I missed several other points of consideration, so if you need anything else just ask. Like I said, take the time to make a smart purchase based on your coverage needs. Secondly: make sure it looks pretty too! If you're going to spend over a million on one rig, make sure you can show it off too! :D .
 

justavillain

Member
Mar 7, 2013
1,010
Grand Rapids
Many departments use quints as an engine company. The houses that have both; the quint is staffed to 4 then the engine at least 2. If there is 1 ff/EO left then they will be bounced to the Med squad or another house. The quint I was on was an engine by nfpa standards dude to the tank. It only had 250gal of water.


My quint was fast to set, we routinely beat the truck companies in set up to tip even though we had 4 and they had 5 or 6. Reason being 2 riggers, (less room needed when set up)the EO and 4th seater set it up while the ofc and 3rd got ready. The water way was kept in "rescue" mode so the master was only 1/2 way up. Now for even a 3 story that was fine. It was no longer then the normal engines in the fleet.


Single axle, mid pump, side panel, rear mounted disk, 75' 4 seater made by Spartan(lots of Michigan Departments use spartan) iirc it was the Gladiator platform for the cab/frame with a 1250 Hale pump. I got good at through pumping with it during training but I was a 3rd when I was assigned to it.


A 75' will get 7 stories in a high rise. But when we run on those we make room for the platforms to actually work as a true truck company.
 

Forum Statistics

Threads
54,168
Messages
450,502
Members
19,179
Latest member
Ragnarok

About Us

  • Since 1997, eLightbars has been the premier venue for all things emergency warning equipment. Discussions, classified listings, pictures, videos, chat, & more! Our staff members strive to keep the forums organized and clutter-free. All of our offerings are free-of-charge with all costs offset by banner advertising. Premium offerings are available to improve your experience.

User Menu

Secure Browsing & Transactions

eLightbars.org uses SSL to secure all traffic between our server and your browsing device. All browsing and transactions within are secured by an SSL Certificate with high-strength encryption.