Looking for a new fleet

[cybercop]

I am in the process of looking for a new fleet of patrol units (15).

Currently we have 10-2013 Tahoes and 4-2010 CV that we are no longer putting money into the upkeep of them.

The Tahoes are great SUVs, but we are having huge issues with their brakes.  Most of the Tahoes are on their 3 set of rotors and 4-5 sets of front/rear brake pads which is eating up our budget big time.  We do not have our on fleet mechanics, so everything is Firestone.  I feel that Firestone is ripping us off big time because every 6 months they say we need new rotors because the current ones have heat spots from the way we drive and they will not resurface because they say it is a safety issue.  We started replacing pads and rotors at 22k miles, now most are around 50k.  We do a lot of highway and county road driving, some high speed calls and pursuits, but to be replacing rotors that often seems very off to me.

Secondly the Tahoes have two batteries and prior to their standard warranty being expired, all of a sudden both batteries on 8 of the Tahoes batteries died.  Luckily they were all replaced under the 3yr/36k warranty.  We are again having battery problems and replacing both is running close to 300 bucks.

Are there any agencies, mainly like Sheriff's Office and Highway Patrols that are experience these same issues?

So now I am looking at Chargers, both Ford products, and the Chevy Caprice package.  The only way I would suggest keeping Tahoes or new Tahoes are for patrol supervisors.

For those that deal with those vehicles on a constant basis, what are you pros and cons? 

Thanks.

 

[HILO]

There is nothing wrong with the Tahoe's. Its the Firestone. I'd bet money they are using cheap pads. Even if they are charging you for more expensive pads. The rotors can be turned typically two times in their life. Raybestos makes a police certified brake pad, as does Wagner. Brake pads on a heavy use police vehicle usually last 30,000 miles. For the battery's you need a battery tender, and your operators need to make sure they are shutting equipment off when away from the vehicle for a prolonged time. Get Interstate or Die Hard batteries with warranty, again no cheap autozone or fire stone crap.


Use the search function for reviews on other PPVs, they all have good and bad points. The Taurus is quick, but bottoms out easy and has limited storage space. The exploere has good space and isbquick, but Officers say they are uncomfortable. The Caprice is the fastest top speed PPV, but again, Officers find them a little uncomfortable. The Charger is fastvand looks cool, but still has blind spots, and while the suspension is greatly improved, thebbrajkes still wear quick. There is not enough feedback aboutbthe Charger big brake package.

 

[MEVS06]

My old PD we ran 4 Tahoes and 1 Charger. The Charger was so bad the Chief made it the SRO unit. We had several high speed calls and assist agency's and a heck of alot of pursuits. We never had issues with the brakes because we made sure that the brakes they were using were the ones my Chief specified along with the oil etc. I put about 40k miles on my unit before needing the brakes done. If they wanted to try something different we would not sign the ticket until the Chief approved it. He demanded the best and was willing to pay for it, which really didn't cost much more because we were using the longer lasting products.


As far as the batteries we had one rookie who always forgot to shut down equipment and he would kill batteries every few MONTHS until Chief had a come to Jesus moment with him.


I think I know your area and I would have to recommend looking for another shop what won't screw you guys over.

 

[tvsjr]

Considering how many departments are flocking to the Tahoe, I find it hard to believe that your problems are common.

Brakes - Firestone is your problem. Find someone else (ideally a mechanic with experience working on emergency vehicles, or a Chevy dealer) who can evaluate things for you. Take one of the Tahoes to Firestone and get the brakes fixed. Tell them you want the old parts, and the boxes for the new parts. Load it all up and take it and the vehicle to your independent. Validate what's being put on the vehicle, and if the existing rotors are indeed damaged. Also, ensure you are specifically telling Firestone exactly what class of parts you want installed (OEM being a good option). If you can confirm that Firestone is indeed screwing you, having the Chief stop by and discuss things like fraud charges with the owner might cause an immediate change in attitude.

Batteries - If you lost 16 batteries back to back, I would expect a manufacturer's defect or some sort of equipment malfunciton. Get an amp clamp and start poking around. What's the parasitic draw on both batteries with the vehicle off/equipment (supposedly) off? What's the load with equipment running - both in a normal "patrol" mode and in a balls-out code 3, all spotlights, siren, etc. mode? This should help rule out electrical gremlins. Are you having to jump the vehicles off frequently? Standard flooded cell batteries do not like deep discharging - in fact, once is often enough to kill them or at least substantially reduce lifespan. There are all sorts of weird reasons why you might have unexpected parasitic load... for example, with Motorola XTL radios in a remote configuration, if you switch both the power and ignition wires of the control head while keeping power to the brick, the radio will remain powered up and will draw about 1A continuously. Let a vehicle sit for a day or two and this could easily discharge the equipment battery. Since there's an isolated battery for cranking, the truck would still fire up... but then subject the starting battery and alternator to significant load while the equipment battery is recharged.

OEM batteries are pretty crap these days. If you determine that there aren't electrical gremlins floating about, replace any failed batteries with comparable Odyssey models (assuming your chief will approve this).

 

[cybercop]

Everything that is wired in the Tahoe turns off when the unit is turned off.  The replacement batteries are from O'Reilly.

As far as the brakes, I have always wanted to take them to the local Chevy place for a comparission, but the higher ups won't allow it.

I know Firestone doesn't use the raybestos or wagners.  they use what they call "heavy duty".

It all comes down to lowest price to the county.  OEM Quality and longer lasting parts cost money, money that the county doesn't have.  Our vehicle maint. budget was cut bad. 

I would love to do some of the recommendations, but unfortunately there is not county mechanic and have no idea how to check draw/loads without having to outsource it.  Also, we use a equipment installer from 4 hours away, so anything goes down in terms of emergency equipment, we are SOL unless other officers figure a way to make it work.

 

[MEVS06]

I know O'Reilly offers commercial accounts at a significant discount. That might be a good start.

 

[Hoff]

 for example, with Motorola XTL radios in a remote configuration, if you switch both the power and ignition wires of the control head while keeping power to the brick, the radio will remain powered up and will draw about 1A continuously. Let a vehicle sit for a day or two and this could easily discharge the equipment battery. 

I'm pretty sure this is the cause for a lot of the problems with our cars on base, some control heads don't turn off at all. The control head is in the console but the bricks are in the trunks wired to the power back there (impalas). What fixes are out there that don't require ripping the car apart?

 

[Jarred J.]

I know O'Reilly offers commercial accounts at a significant discount. That might be a good start.

yes they do but advanced is better.

i have friends that work at both. o'reillys  will give you an item for "their price" plus a bit. advanced can basically name their own price. (within reason)

 

[MEVS06]

Well all auto parts stores do that, but I don't think there are a ton of them in cybercops neck of the woods

 

[jmr061]

As far as the batteries go you should not be replacing them that often.  In fact my opinion is you shouldn't even need a dual radio setup especially if your vehicle is all LED lighting.  Sounds to me like you have an issue with your upfitter not properly wiring equipment in the vehicle.  Especially if things shut off with the key (which I would never recommend in a patrol vehicle).  There should be a timer or master switch.  You need to find a local vehicle electrical "expert" to check to see if and where the extra draw is that apparently is eating the batteries.  Highly suggest moving to a battery like the optima, etc.  Also as previously mentioned all equipment must be installed to manufacturer instructions/specs otherwise all sorts of funny things can happen.

Perhaps let us know what equipment is in the vehicles?

I would find another service shop to do the brakes.  Perhaps convince management to let one problem vehicle go to a different shop and then see how it holds up (on a test basis).  Demand OEM parts be used on the vehicle.  The budget people need to think long term cost not short term cost.  Quality may cost a little more up front but in the long run will be cheaper due to less failures and cost of replacement.

 

[kitn1mcc]

i am surprised there is not a good independent shop in your area who can do the work.    the OEM brake stuff is not that much more and aftermarket. 

as for batteries go with new AC DELCO    

 

[buddek09]

I'm pretty sure this is the cause for a lot of the problems with our cars on base, some control heads don't turn off at all. The control head is in the console but the bricks are in the trunks wired to the power back there (impalas). What fixes are out there that don't require ripping the car apart?

I would recommend making sure the remote head for the xlt's are wired correctly as stated by tvsjr. Instead of a wiring issue another possibility is the radio is not programmed correctly. We had 3 chargers come in earlier this year with dead battery problems, they were all installed by a competitor. What we found out was that they were wired up correctly, however; they failed to change the ignition switch setting to "soft power off" in the radio program, which meant the radio was always on and never went into sleep mode when the vehicle was shut off.

I would check the wiring on one of the tahoe's to see how the remote head is wired. If the red wire has constant power all the time and the yellow one goes to the timer or an ignition wire then the radio's need to have the ignition switch setting changed.

 

[jmr061]

We don't know what equipment. Including radios he has as the OP hasn't informed us of that.

 

[buddek09]

Sorry I read responce from Hoff and thought it was the OP

 

[jmr061]

Sorry I read responce from Hoff and thought it was the OP

No need to be sorry just pointing out that we are still waiting for that info. You bring up very valid points with that specific radio however. It shows there are many variables and that the upfitter not only must know how to physically wire things but must also understand how they function and are used by the end user which unfortunately you don't always get with an upfitter.

 

[delcofirecop]

Sounds like firestone is using cheap parts. Try selling the county on using another shop just once tell them it is for comparison purposes for say legal reasons in case someone gets hurt. They will do anything to avoid a lawsuit lol.

No need to be sorry just pointing out that we are still waiting for that info. You bring up very valid points with that specific radio however. It shows there are many variables and that the upfitter not only must know how to physically wire things but must also understand how they function and are used by the end user which unfortunately you don't always get with an upfitter.

 

[tvsjr]

I would correct this to say that you *think* everything turns off. Unless you know the wiring intimately or you've done the checks I recommended, you don't *know*. And, as they say, knowing is half the battle

Where are you in TX? PM me if you don't want to get that detailed in public. If you are close I'll help you out on the electrical part for free... if you're not, I might know someone who can.

Everything that is wired in the Tahoe turns off when the unit is turned off. 

Radio brick powered all the time.

Control head RED wire to constant power.

Control head YELLOW wire to ignition/master switch.

Ignition Switch programmed to Soft Power Off in CPS.

There are also some firmware versions that had challenges with some of the switching. If you are running dirt-old firmware, you might be in need of a bump.

I'm pretty sure this is the cause for a lot of the problems with our cars on base, some control heads don't turn off at all. The control head is in the console but the bricks are in the trunks wired to the power back there (impalas). What fixes are out there that don't require ripping the car apart?

 

[MEVS06]

I have a feeling I know the area he is located and who the upfitter is. If I am correct on both parts the upfitters is a member of elb...

 

[FireEMSPolice]

I dont trust shops like Firestone, etc for vehicle maintenance issues, just tires. See if you can work out a deal with the dealership. Our county PD's have a predominately Ford fleet, with a few Chargers here and there but I dont think I have seen a Chevy in patrol use in a while. All are serviced at the dealership.

 

Quality may cost a little more up front but in the long run will be cheaper due to less failures and cost of replacement.

I agree with this 110%. Unfortunately, most admins can not. They care for what it costs now and fail to see the savings down the road. If they cut his vehicle budget and they are using a shop like Firestone, I think the admins are clueless.

I also disagree with equipment being "ignition only" in an emergency vehicle and you should have a timer as stated.

 

[Station 3]

Don't go with the charger unless your a metro city area. Our Department has new chargers and we are a semi rural department with the Constables office and you cant do anything in bad roads with that charger, It feels like your driving a Italian sports car hitting every damn pot hole and stone on the road. At first only our supervisors drove the chargers but now they started replacing all the vics with chargers. Im holding out for a used 2013 F-150 4x4 hopefully I get it or maybe the 2014 4x4 Tahoe we just got. The other pretty boy officers that don't like getting off the road got the chargers and im the more don't give a crap off road back woods type so hopefully I get the truck.

The Tahoe is a nice ride I think your being ripped off by that place.

 

[kitn1mcc]

the town i am in got chargers   and we have our fair share of back roads. 

 

[cybercop]

Our equipment is as follows:

FS Valor tri-color

Razorbak Tomar

Harris 800 radio

Motorola PM1500

Digital Ally DVM 750

SOS ETSA380MF Siren/Light Controller

The only thing that stays on with the ignition off is the DVM750.  It has a backup battery in it, but once that starts running out, the IO box has to be replaced.  So at the end of each shift, the DVM is completely shut down.

I did contact the local Chevy Dealership earlier this week and they confirmed that the battery replacements they did last year are covered by a 1 year warranty, so they will replace them at no charge on only the ones that were replaced.

Also, I was able to go to Goodyear for a brake change on one of the Tahoe's because they use AC Delco, factory brakes, so we will see how much longer they last.

We have an account with O'reilley and buy some items there.  When we had a full time mechanic, everything was bought there and he installed them.  We no longer have a mechanic, so its off to either Firestone or Goodyear.  There is also no fleet manager or fleet personnel to handle all this. 

The cold has really hurt the batteries lately, if a unit sits more than 2 days, it's going to have to be jump started.

As far as upfitters, there are none in this area, but as of 2 weeks ago there is now one.  I can get into information in a PM.

I have no experience on electrical, installations, etc...    I have always wanted to learn, but no opportunity down here. 

Seems as we are going to stick with Tahoes, but learned some new equiptment has to be purchased new because of the change of body style.  Damm you Chevy!

 

[MEVS06]

Send me a PM, I may just drive down and take a look at the units for you.