Move from VHF to EDACS Standard (?) Help

[bwheelz05]

The FD/County has moved from low band VHF/UHF to "EDACS Standard, Rebanded, Analog voice" and most of us are still in the VHF/UHF mind set.


Everyone is gripping over having to purchase new mobile radios for POVs... but no one knows what type to get. I doubt their are not any 800mhz programmable radios on the market.. I know moto is out of the question (Type on the trucks.. costs about 150$ a piece to program I heard) as far as being able to program by ones self. (without buying the subscription, and accessories)


A lot of 'tech talk' can be found but does anyone know of something basic, simple and to the point? What are your guys' mobile radio suggestions? Anything programmable that I am not seeing on the web? What would you recommend for a personal portable as well? We are also in the market for finding suitable replacements for our Minitor V's as well. I know Moto has 800mhz Minitors ( I believe so ) The frequencies also recently dropped 15mhz due to interference from Nextel towers in the area and the frequency band might change yet again... major PITA (pain in the ass) in my opinion... puts a huge strain on locales that simply cant keep up with the change.


Some help and explanation would be awesome!


thanks!

 

[delcofirecop]

just an fyi title to the thread says moved from vhs to edacs not vhf haha

 

[bwheelz05]

OOPS! HA! fixed that! thanks

 

[Kbonk15]

Does your department or County have a communication officer/Department? If so contact them and have them come in and do a presentation on the new system and which radios to buy and how to get them programed. A lot of times county's will buy software and offer programing for a fraction of the price of a moto shop. If you have them come in you will get the most accurate information. No one can tell you what is best for you unless they have worked with the system and local geography. Just my ¢2.


-Kevin

 

[Steve0625]

TWe are also in the market for finding suitable replacements for our Minitor V's as well. I know Moto has 800mhz Minitors ( I believe so )

Some help and explanation would be awesome!


thanks!

Motorola does NOT offer a 800 MHz Minitor. But don't be in a rush to discard your existing Minitors, and here's why:


Typically, communities that switch to 700 MHz, 800 MHZ or any trunking or digital technology retain one analog frequency for tone and voice paging. Most times, it is an existing fire or EMS dispatch channel; VHF or UHF, whatever you already have. The county next to us just finished up installing a county-wide 800MHz digital trunking system for all of public safety and DPW, Highway, governmental, whatever. They kept a single VHF channel (analog and narrowband) for tone and voice alerting. It has multiple transmitter sites so the whole county is well covered. And, it is a one-way channel. No one except dispatch is supposed to transmit on it for any reason.


The reason that so many communities have done this is two-fold. First, because of the huge existing inventories of Minitors and other tone & voice pagers, it makes good sense not to have to purchase new gear for alerting when the channel and hardware are already in place. Those with integrated CAD systems are even in better shape because there is no change required for alerting at the dispatch end. Second, while there is a lot of new technology in development for alerting in trunking, digital, 700 Mhz and higher, it's not on the market yet. Because of the diversity of systems (different digital types and different frequency ranges), it will be some time before any product that matches the Minitor's overall functionality will be commonly accepted and adopted by the Fire and EMS communities.


Now, before some of you jump all over me because the Unication G1 is already on the market and the G3 and G5 are in development, I do know that there is stuff coming down the pike, but it's not ready for widespread adoption today.


Kbonk15 suggested that the FD arrange for a meet with a county rep who knows exactly what is going to take place there. That is the best and only way to get concrete answers. Then you will know what you can plan on keeping and what you can plan on replacing. If your agency has to buy its own replacement gear, ask the county if they'd consider doing a group order where individual agencies can participate. That way, there is the possibility of quantity discounts and the county oversees what gets purchased so you'll know that you are getting the right stuff.


You need local guidance on this.

 

[bwheelz05]

Very good advice! Good ideas all around. I spoke to the county 'radio tech' and hes just as flustered as we are. He states that he has to do his own research on the 800mhz setup as well.... he has worked with VHF/UHF and when the change was made he wasn't up to speed. ... not his fault though. I sat down with him today and asked the same questions as here. Our vehicles already have the 800mhz gear installed (this was prior to my arrival) Chief said that he was told to cycle the trucks in and the installs were completed. Fortunately (and I should have explained better) we do still tone out on the VHF freq.. subject to change in the future(?) but for now we are good. Planning ahead though...


More to the point; some have purchased 800 mhz mobile for their POVs and simply paid some good $ to have them programmed. Some of us want to explore other options such as whether there are 800mhz radios that can be self programmed? Any one have a thought on that? Anybody have a self-programmable 800mhz set up? Just curious.


Appreciate the input.


*F.Y.I No we do not have a communications person... The county tech helps program our vehicle radios and Minitors only. We order the hand helds direct and they are programmed before being shipped out. If we have issues, we send them back. * Will have to find out exact types of radios*

 

[ful-vue]

If folks are getting personal radios programmed for them, someone is giving them the system key. Programming radios for trunked systems is not generally a DIY proposition. It isn't simple, and if you do it wrong, you can cause problems for the system. Motorola isn't likely to be what is used on your new system, since as far as I am aware, they've never done EDACS radios. (EDACS was a GE & Ericsson creation, and is now owned by Harris.)


The idea that the county radio tech is not up to speed on the new system is pretty frightening. He should have been involved from day one. Sounds like maybe a vendor got to the folks who control the purse strings and bypassed the technical people.

 

[tvsjr]

$DEITY, there's SO MUCH FAIL in this thread.


First, you didn't move "from VHF to EDACS". VHF, UHF, 700/800MHz are frequency ranges. Conventional, EDACS, Motorola Type 2, P25 Phase 1, etc. are types of systems. You can run EDACS on VHF, UHF, or 700/800. You can be on 700/800 with a conventional repeater.


Next, EDACS radios are built by Harris, not Motorola. With the exception of an incredibly rare SP radio from years ago, Motorola doesn't build EDACS radios.


As far as radios, you need to know a few things:


Is the system analog (no ProVoice digital)?


Any encryption in use?


All 800MHz?


If the system is an old-school, analog EDACS, 800MHz system, you're in luck. There are many radios that will operate on the system, from the venerable MPA and PCS up through the P7100/7200/7300 and even the Unity XG100p (if you have the coin). If you buy a radio, software, and cable, you can set your radio up on the system without further difficulties.


BUT WAIT - it's not your system. So, make damn sure you have authorization (including an assigned radio ID) from whoever owns the system, or you could end up in trouble or causing issues with the system.


Also, most any trunking scanner would work - from the BC780XLT up through the current 396/996/XT/436/536. If you're just looking to monitor, a scanner will work and you can't get into trouble programming a scanner.


Whatever you do, your first stop should be the system administrator. He or she can tell you what radios are allowed, if you can program your own, etc.

 

[bwheelz05]

Interesting...


Thanks everyone for the advice/suggestions. The EDACS orion 800MHz is what three of the guys here bought and turns out several of the trucks have the same radio.. sad I never took the time to notice and assumed they were all Motorola. My fault. Seems to be a popular radio choice. I have seen several articles written about the radio and plan on self educating.


Everyone requests permission to have mobiles installed (as its always been) But what one decides to install in their own vehicle, is that persons choice. And non of these guys has any malicious intent to 'screw things up'.. .. if permission is granted... they buy a radio, then send it off to be programmed. Not to sure on the particulars. Bottom line is I will be researching and doing some much needed self educating.


Will discuss getting a hold of a rep at the next business meeting and coming up with a game plan. Think this thread has gone off topic somewhat Appreciate the help!

 

[bwheelz05]

Ahh, okay. That is what are paging set up is currently. I thought Motorola had pagers in the 800mhz band. Misinformation on my part. We still page on the VHF side. Some departments are even dragging feet with the change over.. actually quite a few as its just so expensive to upgrade without funding.

 

[Ben E.]

IETY:, there's SO MUCH FAIL in this thread.

First, you didn't move "from VHF to EDACS". VHF, UHF, 700/800MHz are frequency ranges. Conventional, EDACS, Motorola Type 2, P25 Phase 1, etc. are types of systems. You can run EDACS on VHF, UHF, or 700/800. You can be on 700/800 with a conventional repeater.


Next, EDACS radios are built by Harris, not Motorola. With the exception of an incredibly rare SP radio from years ago, Motorola doesn't build EDACS radios.


As far as radios, you need to know a few things:


Is the system analog (no ProVoice digital)?


Any encryption in use?


All 800MHz?


If the system is an old-school, analog EDACS, 800MHz system, you're in luck. There are many radios that will operate on the system, from the venerable MPA and PCS up through the P7100/7200/7300 and even the Unity XG100p (if you have the coin). If you buy a radio, software, and cable, you can set your radio up on the system without further difficulties.


BUT WAIT - it's not your system. So, make damn sure you have authorization (including an assigned radio ID) from whoever owns the system, or you could end up in trouble or causing issues with the system.


Also, most any trunking scanner would work - from the BC780XLT up through the current 396/996/XT/436/536. If you're just looking to monitor, a scanner will work and you can't get into trouble programming a scanner.


Whatever you do, your first stop should be the system administrator. He or she can tell you what radios are allowed, if you can program your own, etc.

First sentence nailed it pretty good.


Anyway, firstly, I find it hard to believe anybody JUST built an EDACS system since it's on it's way out.


EDACS analog radios can be bought used by the dozens for dirt cheap on eBay. Terry's right though, you'd better make sure you have permission from the sys admin, or you're going to end up with a radio that doesn't do you any good. Someone's gotta assign you a LID number and give you permission on the system or it just won't work.


It's the Unity XG-100M that has EDACS, Harris refuses to offer it in the portables since EDACS is on it's way out (I know you're a Moto guy so just a point of clarification I guess). There was a lot of begging, pleading and yelling to get it in the mobiles. But be prepared to spend $6000 or more for one of those radios.


You'll probably find M/A-Com era 500M's or old GE Orion's for the cheapest used. Another thing to consider, which we have problems convincing customers of when switching to trunking, is if they actually designed the system for proper coverage and didn't just slap EDACS sites in your existing VHF shelters, a portable will work just as good as a mobile. Somehow I find it hard to believe that actually happened though, since you apparently have nobody in charge of anything...

 

[tvsjr]

Actually, I think the newest firmware just released for Unity added EDACS to the portables as well.

 

[Ben E.]

XGPR2 code added EDACS to the XG-25/75 fo sho.