Nurse Refuses To Do CPR, "Company policy"

EMT-BLS

New Member
Oct 28, 2011
2,640
Waterbury, CT
Un-freaking-real...that's the facility's answer to liability lawsuits, no one is allowed to touch the patient. I hope the rest of the residents are smart enough to get the hell out of there.
 

unlisted

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 20, 2010
7,333
NA
Whats up with the daughter of the victim (yup totally a victim when someone does NOT have a DNR) stating shes a nurse and she is satisfied with the level of care provided?!??!?


I'm sorry to most of the (American) members here.. but has America become THAT F'ed up!?!?? A NURSE REFUSING CPR at a place of their employment due to "policy"?
 

mcpd2025

Member
May 20, 2010
1,557
Maryland, USA
Around here there are a TON of these nursing homes that employ a lot of idiots. Sure, during the day (visiting hours) they have competent, bright English speaking staff. When the sun goes down and visiting hours are over, they bring in the West African "nurses". I had a DOA years ago that was in full rigor. I checked his stat sheet, they had written down that they had checked on him multiple times throughout the night and gave him medication. While it is possible that the are indeed stupid enough to try to force medication down a dead persons throat, there was no evidence to suggest that they had done it. I'm guessing they tried to cover up the fact that he had been dead for a LONG time before anyone noticed.


I'm sure that a lot of these "nurses" don't know how to properly do CPR.
 

Tlauden

Member
Apr 3, 2011
200
Halifax, PA
The hospital i used to work for made us (security) call 911 if a guest would get injured while in the building/on property. "Technically" we were not allowed to help guests, only the patients. We never followed that rule because its just screwed up. If someone needs help there was no reason not to get a wheelchair and help them to the ER. BUT that doesnt xhange the fact some idiot somewhere put that rule in our policy
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,971
Northwest Ohio
unlisted said:
Whats up with the daughter of the victim (yup totally a victim when someone does NOT have a DNR) stating shes a nurse and she is satisfied with the level of care provided?!??!?

I'm sorry to most of the (American) members here.. but has America become THAT F'ed up!?!?? A NURSE REFUSING CPR at a place of their employment due to "policy"?

America has not become more screwed up..


We just have better ways of hearing about it. I have seen crap like this my whole career. Stupid under trained health care providers are nothing new.
 

Quickstep80

Member
May 30, 2012
149
Europe
Exactly.


They might have changed the publication settings for this video since today morning (CET). I was able to watch it a few hours ago, now I get the same error code as you did.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

bfd740

Member
Jul 4, 2010
285
Babylon, NY
mcpd2025 said:
Around here there are a TON of these nursing homes that employ a lot of idiots. Sure, during the day (visiting hours) they have competent, bright English speaking staff. When the sun goes down and visiting hours are over, they bring in the West African "nurses". I had a DOA years ago that was in full rigor. I checked his stat sheet, they had written down that they had checked on him multiple times throughout the night and gave him medication. While it is possible that the are indeed stupid enough to try to force medication down a dead persons throat, there was no evidence to suggest that they had done it. I'm guessing they tried to cover up the fact that he had been dead for a LONG time before anyone noticed.

I'm sure that a lot of these "nurses" don't know how to properly do CPR.


When I heard the tape I was surprised that she spoke clear English. The whole thing is ridiculous.
 

foxtrot5

New Member
Sep 26, 2011
3,002
Charleston Area, SC, US
I hope a copy of the facility's policies comes out to the general public because I'd LOVE to know how this one is worded. As far as I'm concerned, witholding medical care is the same as intentionally harming someone. Especially CPR and other immediatly lifesaving measures. After 7+ years working EMS and Fire, I can tell you that NOTHING short of a valid DNR (or crazy circumstance like a man with a gun who won't let me near the patient) will keep me from working a code that I believe has a chance. What ever happened to "do no harm" or are we throwing our oaths out the window now?
 

EMT-BLS

New Member
Oct 28, 2011
2,640
Waterbury, CT
foxtrot5 said:
I hope a copy of the facility's policies comes out to the general public because I'd LOVE to know how this one is worded. As far as I'm concerned, witholding medical care is the same as intentionally harming someone. Especially CPR and other immediatly lifesaving measures. After 7+ years working EMS and Fire, I can tell you that NOTHING short of a valid DNR (or crazy circumstance like a man with a gun who won't let me near the patient) will keep me from working a code that I believe has a chance. What ever happened to "do no harm" or are we throwing our oaths out the window now?

To add on to what Foxtrot said, if I saw DNR paperwork that looked even the slightest bit off, I'd still work the code. There was no way in hell I am going to stand by and let someone die, even if it costs me my license.
 

unlisted

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 20, 2010
7,333
NA

Clarence H

Member
May 20, 2010
1,546
USA Twin Cities Minnesota
Not that it makes any difference, but on the tape, the nurse did not sound West African, or African American at all.


Clarence

mcpd2025 said:
Around here there are a TON of these nursing homes that employ a lot of idiots. Sure, during the day (visiting hours) they have competent, bright English speaking staff. When the sun goes down and visiting hours are over, they bring in the West African "nurses". I had a DOA years ago that was in full rigor. I checked his stat sheet, they had written down that they had checked on him multiple times throughout the night and gave him medication. While it is possible that the are indeed stupid enough to try to force medication down a dead persons throat, there was no evidence to suggest that they had done it. I'm guessing they tried to cover up the fact that he had been dead for a LONG time before anyone noticed.

I'm sure that a lot of these "nurses" don't know how to properly do CPR.
 

FSEP

Member
Nov 11, 2012
844
DE
For some reason I'm thinking their was a case where a patient sued their health care providers (I don't remember who) for working them when they coded, and lived. I'm not saying that should be an excuse (unless SCOTUS or their/your state supreme court ruled on it), but that would be an interesting factor.
 

LLS

Member
May 23, 2010
517
NYC
Unless a DNR document is provided at the time of "Cardiac Arrest" CPR is always given as "Implied Consent".


I think a lawsuit would have a hard time going through, if the person did in fact want to remain in Cardiac Arrest.


I'm a believer in Divine Justice, also known as Karma.


"What goes around, comes around" It would be interesting to follow that nurse's status,


I'm pretty sure the one in charge of Divine Justice knows where she lives.
 

FireEMSPolice

Member
May 21, 2010
3,429
Ohio
I wonder why the daughter is ok with this. Mind boggling.


My wife is an RN. This story has had me fired the hell up since I heard about and it became worse when I listened to the call. The RN should have her license revoked. Its morally reprehensible. Screw your policy! They need to fire the management, be sued into extinction and some heads need to roll in this.
 

NERT11

Member
Jul 3, 2012
196
Ontario, Canada
unlisted said:
Whats up with the daughter of the victim (yup totally a victim when someone does NOT have a DNR) stating shes a nurse and she is satisfied with the level of care provided?!??!?

I'm sorry to most of the (American) members here.. but has America become THAT F'ed up!?!?? A NURSE REFUSING CPR at a place of their employment due to "policy"?

Our health system is the same way here. They've turned our hospital in to an "urgent care center". There are no defib units or even a PAD on the second floor. And if a patient goes in to arrest, the Urgent Care doctor is not allowed to go to the second floor with the defib to help the patient. The defib isn't even allowed to be brought to the second... Result. We are regularly responding to the hospital for VSA calls. Looks a little funny when a fire truck shows up for a medical at the hospital. Then we get to take the patient out of the hospital for a 30 minute ambulance ride to the next closest hospital doing cpr...
 

hitman38367

Member
May 23, 2010
881
West Tennessee, USA
I would have to be fired for violating policy and let my Nurses' Association help me with the the lawsuit against the employer. I don't care what kind of policy a facility has, the first role of the nurse, is "Do No Harm". That nurse had a professional responsibility to provide competent care regardless of policy. If she thought that policy trumped her nursing responsibilities then she doesn't need to be a nurse and her license should be revoked. No DNR=aid rendered regardless of policy. DNR=protect patient and hope they go quickly and painlessly. Either way, there is a code of conduct and ethics to be followed and it wasn't followed here from what I have read so far. God help that nurse and the patient's family.
 

foxtrot5

New Member
Sep 26, 2011
3,002
Charleston Area, SC, US
In regards to the daughter being a nurse, did they ever specify that she was a full fledged RN? Or even that the facility staff member was a full RN? I think news/media outlets use the term "Nurse" too loosely...
 

hitman38367

Member
May 23, 2010
881
West Tennessee, USA
foxtrot5 said:
In regards to the daughter being a nurse, did they ever specify that she was a full fledged RN? Or even that the facility staff member was a full RN? I think news/media outlets use the term "Nurse" too loosely...
Not only the news media, but certain occupations that work along side of RNs and LPNs as well. I was in my local department store one night recently and saw a female in scrubs and stopped to talk to her. I asked her where she worked and what she did. She stated that she worked at a local nursing home and was a nurse. Her badge said "CNA". So being the asshole that I am and playing dumb, I said "I bet that two years or so of nursing school was really tough." She replied that her school was only 6 months and it was easy. I said "oh really? Then why is it that I have had to endure hell for the last two years in school to earn the title of RN and yours was only 6 months?" She replied with "Oh I am a CNA, not a nurse." Well, the asshole in me came out once again and I said "You damn right you aren't a nurse and don't ever call yourself one. You haven't paid your dues to earn that title." She got redfaced and upset and walked off. So, it's not only the media, it's other individuals that work in healthcare as well.
 

FireEMSPolice

Member
May 21, 2010
3,429
Ohio
foxtrot5 said:
In regards to the daughter being a nurse, did they ever specify that she was a full fledged RN? Or even that the facility staff member was a full RN? I think news/media outlets use the term "Nurse" too loosely...

What is a full/full fledged RN??


You talking about weather she was an RN as opposed to an STNA or LPN?
 

foxtrot5

New Member
Sep 26, 2011
3,002
Charleston Area, SC, US
FireEMSPolice said:
What is a full/full fledged RN??

You talking about weather she was an RN as opposed to an STNA or LPN?

Like hitman said, I've heard CNAs and other nursing assistants referred to as nurses. It's been a while since I've reviewed levels of nursing care but I think of it as the difference between a first responder or even a EMT Basic and a Paramedic.
 

hitman38367

Member
May 23, 2010
881
West Tennessee, USA
FireEMSPolice said:
What is a full/full fledged RN??

You talking about weather she was an RN as opposed to an STNA or LPN?
Legally, no individual can call themselves a "Nurse" unless they have been board certified as a RN or LPN. Anyone with a MA, NA, CNA, CMA, or PCT title cannot legally call themselves a "Nurse" due to liability and the scope of practice limitations of their position.
 

hitman38367

Member
May 23, 2010
881
West Tennessee, USA
foxtrot5 said:
Like hitman said, I've heard CNAs and other nursing assistants referred to as nurses. It's been a while since I've reviewed levels of nursing care but I think of it as the difference between a first responder or even a EMT Basic and a Paramedic.

I am a TN board certifed EMR, Emergency Medical Responder. I cannot call myself an EMT, EMT-IV, Medic, Paramedic or anything similar or close due to the limitation of scope of practice. If I go on scene and call myself a Paramedic but can't intubate or push meds if needed due to lack of training, then I have opened a door to a liability lawsuit on myself because I cannot provide the level of care that my self given title entails.


Even now while I am in RN school, I have to call myself a Student Nurse when asked to be identified because I cannot legally call myself a "Nurse" until I have passed boards and earned that title and proven that I have the skills necessary to be deemed a RN or Nurse.
 

bfd740

Member
Jul 4, 2010
285
Babylon, NY
foxtrot5 said:
I hope a copy of the facility's policies comes out to the general public because I'd LOVE to know how this one is worded. As far as I'm concerned, witholding medical care is the same as intentionally harming someone. Especially CPR and other immediatly lifesaving measures. After 7+ years working EMS and Fire, I can tell you that NOTHING short of a valid DNR (or crazy circumstance like a man with a gun who won't let me near the patient) will keep me from working a code that I believe has a chance. What ever happened to "do no harm" or are we throwing our oaths out the window now?

The worst case scenario is that the patient dies. If they're not breathing, they're as good as dead and you can't hurt anybody any more than that. Personally I'd rather have a few broken ribs and some bruises.
 

CrownVic97

Member
May 21, 2010
3,351
Hazen, ND
acdn.memegenerator.net_instances_400x_31040092.jpg


No. Seriously. I almost maxed out my blood pressure after listening to that 911 call. I wanted to shout at the top of my lungs SO DAMN BAD at that stupid scumbucket nurse:explode:.


I hope the dispatcher can press charges. I REALLY FRICKIN' hope that's possible........
 

Captain4164

Member
May 3, 2012
952
California
This is all over the local news here, Bakersfield is one hour from here.


They are saying that this is NOT an Assisted living facility, and it is made known to all that stay there there is no offer of that kind of assistance in this place. Dont get me wrong, I agree with everyone here, I think they should be sued and made to close their doors, but if you move into a place like that and read the contract, that says they wont do it, and its their policy not to, then like her sister said, be happy with the results!
 

unlisted

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 20, 2010
7,333
NA
Captain4164 said:
This is all over the local news here, Bakersfield is one hour from here.

They are saying that this is NOT an Assisted living facility, and it is made known to all that stay there there is no offer of that kind of assistance in this place. Dont get me wrong, I agree with everyone here, I think they should be sued and made to close their doors, but if you move into a place like that and read the contract, that says they wont do it, and its their policy not to, then like her sister said, be happy with the results!

If you are at a homelesss soup kitchen I bet some volunteer serving soup would easily do CPR on ANYONE who fell over...


Messed up. I don't care what kind of place or policies they claim to have in place- 911 is telling you to do something, DO IT.
 

CrownVic97

Member
May 21, 2010
3,351
Hazen, ND
unlisted said:
I don't care what kind of place or policies they claim to have in place- 911 is telling you to do something, DO IT.

ALL of my likes:thumbsup:!!!
 

Captain4164

Member
May 3, 2012
952
California
unlisted said:
If you are at a homelesss soup kitchen I bet some volunteer serving soup would easily do CPR on ANYONE who fell over...

Messed up. I don't care what kind of place or policies they claim to have in place- 911 is telling you to do something, DO IT.

Like I said, I agree, but if the company policy says it will not be done, what recourse do you have?? Personally, I wouldnt stay there knowing they have that policy. And anyone who does stay there is inviting this kind of outcome.
 

pdk9

Member
May 26, 2010
3,834
New York & Florida
I haven't had the time to listen to the live audio link yet, but I've given up on most Nurses and Doctors that aren't working in ED's at solid hospitals. The ones that piss me off the most are walk-in clinic staff...Every code that I've ever responded to at an Urgent Care-type facility or walk-in clinic, the pt. was laying on the ground and nobody was doing anything except shrugging. And, the the ONLY time I ever saw anybody in one of those facilities doing anything/even touching the pt. upon our arrival, I saw an MD doing a unnecessarily auscultating (for a really long time) a pt. in clear arrest; I assume it was probably just for looks/appearances, so that he wasn't blatantly standing around doing nothing, in the eyes of bystanders in the clinic and the pt's son, who don't know better (whereas to any medical professional would wanna punch him in the face, knowing that auscultating isn't going to do shit for someone in full arrest that needs CPR or MICR, let alone someone that doesn't even have an advanced airway in place).


In times like this, people need to forget about stupid policy bullshit and think about what you would want done if that was your mother/father/sister/brother/etc. standing there lifeless. I could never live with myself if I just stood by and did nothing; if I got fired, I would at least know I did the right thing, plus I'd give that co. so much bad PR that they'd likely reconsider their policy and termination decision, while dealing with me in court (as I shine the light on their crap).
 
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NYBLS

Member
Oct 13, 2010
219
NY,USA
From what I've read, the only ones who are bothered by this is everyone besides the family. They knew what service they were getting when they placed their family member in that facility which appears to be more independent living than assisted living. While I believe in providing quality care, I am also realistic. What are the chances this pt would have made a full recovery at her age? Chances are that at age, if she lived, she would still be chewing on plastic. As long as the facility told them what to expect when they put their family member in that facility, then it's not on the staff, they did their job. Now if some 5 year old are visiting grandma and starts chocking and the staff refuses to help, that is a different story.
 

unlisted

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 20, 2010
7,333
NA
NYBLS said:
From what I've read, the only ones who are bothered by this is everyone besides the family. They knew what service they were getting when they placed their family member in that facility which appears to be more independent living than assisted living. While I believe in providing quality care, I am also realistic. What are the chances this pt would have made a full recovery at her age? Chances are that at age, if she lived, she would still be chewing on plastic. As long as the facility told them what to expect when they put their family member in that facility, then it's not on the staff, they did their job. Now if some 5 year old are visiting grandma and starts chocking and the staff refuses to help, that is a different story.

so with this you are claiming one life is worth trying to save compared to another simply due to age? I almost get your reasoning, but its still a very silly point. If its a choice between saving a youth VS old person.. thats a different story.


Regardless of the location, they should of tried CPR. My own Grandmother is in a independent living retirement home - no one checks on her, she makes her own meals in her apt, total independent living, etc. If she was in a common area and was in distress, I would fully expect staff or a other resident to help as much as possible. (and no, there is no stupid "we don't help clause" there, mind you its a faith based organization which runs the facility) IF my Grandmother had a DNR (which she does not) even if someone tried to help her, I would not fault them, good chance they wouldn't know off the bat. (since its independent living)


Grumble. I really dislike this, and am glad its not around these parts.. yet.
 

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