smitty711
Member
NYPD AERODYNIC model #????
- Thread starter smitty711
- Start date
toon80
Member
NPS Ranger
Member
For what it's worth, here's the model plate from my bar which was taken from an NYPD RMP and sold at the NYC DCAS auction in the early 90's.
24R = AeroTwinSonic version of the AeroDynic frame (nameplates say AeroDynic)
M = medium length 47 1/2"
V = V mirrors
F = flashers
The US FedSig service department is unaware of any model or option designation of "2Z" for this bar, although they said if it was ordered for international sale they wouldn't necessarily have a record of that designation. I've never seen an actual NYPD bar marked that way. Not to say there couldn't be one.
Also for what it's worth, here's a pic of the #4414 bulbs which are correct for the inboard flashers on that bar, some pics of restored bars on the web show regular #4416 non-faceted bulbs in that position which isn't authentic. The original rotator bulbs are #4464.
24R = AeroTwinSonic version of the AeroDynic frame (nameplates say AeroDynic)
M = medium length 47 1/2"
V = V mirrors
F = flashers
The US FedSig service department is unaware of any model or option designation of "2Z" for this bar, although they said if it was ordered for international sale they wouldn't necessarily have a record of that designation. I've never seen an actual NYPD bar marked that way. Not to say there couldn't be one.
Also for what it's worth, here's a pic of the #4414 bulbs which are correct for the inboard flashers on that bar, some pics of restored bars on the web show regular #4416 non-faceted bulbs in that position which isn't authentic. The original rotator bulbs are #4464.
smitty711
Member
Thanks Ranger....................i have seen some NYPD Aero's with 4 panels and some with 3 1/2 or 3 1/4 length domes on restored models. did they use both or were the restorations in correct..
NPS Ranger
Member
The ones I've seen all seemed to be the 3 1/2 panel size, no matter which size vehicle they were used on.
Here's a link to an excellent collection on flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/44700898@N ... 355749201/
Here's a link to an excellent collection on flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/44700898@N ... 355749201/
Everyone at this forum with real NYPD AeroTwinSonics has the number 24RMVF-2Z.
This has been discussed and verified in severel treads previously.
I have personally seen this number in all NYPD AeroTwinSonics I looked inside when I visiited NYPD in 1987.
The New York City Housing Autorithy Police where also using the AeroTwinSonic.
How that bar was marked I do not know.
If it was standard it would probably have been sold at a NYC auction also.
Maybe NYPD bought standard AeroTwinSonics at a later date than 1987 and rebuild them to their specifications themself.
NYPD used the AeroTwinSonic for about 10 years and they changed cars every second year.
The Federal numbers 2Z is a Federal indication that the product is a special order product and is used on many other products.
That no one at Fedreal do not know anything about this after 25 years I am completely sure of.
For what it is worth, now I know that you, NPS Ranger, do not have a 24RMVF-2Z so now I know that it is not like the ones that i saw in 1987 because no one of them had the 4414 as flashing sealed beams.
All had spot sealed beams.
4416 or 4464?
I do not know.
If your bar is a real NYPD bar I do not know.
Did you bought it yourself at the auction or did the seller tell you a "fairy tale"?
This has been discussed and verified in severel treads previously.
I have personally seen this number in all NYPD AeroTwinSonics I looked inside when I visiited NYPD in 1987.
The New York City Housing Autorithy Police where also using the AeroTwinSonic.
How that bar was marked I do not know.
If it was standard it would probably have been sold at a NYC auction also.
Maybe NYPD bought standard AeroTwinSonics at a later date than 1987 and rebuild them to their specifications themself.
NYPD used the AeroTwinSonic for about 10 years and they changed cars every second year.
The Federal numbers 2Z is a Federal indication that the product is a special order product and is used on many other products.
That no one at Fedreal do not know anything about this after 25 years I am completely sure of.
For what it is worth, now I know that you, NPS Ranger, do not have a 24RMVF-2Z so now I know that it is not like the ones that i saw in 1987 because no one of them had the 4414 as flashing sealed beams.
All had spot sealed beams.
4416 or 4464?
I do not know.
If your bar is a real NYPD bar I do not know.
Did you bought it yourself at the auction or did the seller tell you a "fairy tale"?
NPS Ranger
Member
1) Not to doubt your sincerity cmb56, but I lived in NYC during the decades when these were first-line equipment and saw these bars every day. Lived with them, walked and drove past them operating hundreds if not thousands of times. I'm quite familiar with how the flasher bulbs looked, also quite familiar with how the color would fade on the red rotator bulbs and make them appear orange around the center of the bulb. Perhaps I'm a bit more familiar with these bars, than someone who just visited New York City for a few days in 1987.
2) If you look at the Fed Sig parts breakdown for the AeroDynic model 24, you'll see that the flashing lamps are specified as #4414. On the original AeroDynic they were used as end lamps, on the NYPD 24RMVF bar they were used as inboard flashers. However, same mounting assembly, same bulb:
http://www.fedsig.com/products/docs/par ... C-24CA.pdf
3) The #4416 spotlight bulb has an 11 x 4 degree beam spread, which makes it excellent for use as a spotlight or as a revolving beacon giving it a sharp flash, but means it is much too narrow to use as a fixed flasher. As a flasher with a 4 degree beam spread, if you are more than 2 degrees off the axis of the vehicle you have very little intensity, pretty useless when parked at a scene. It was common to use just the flashers while double-parked in traffic. With the correct bulb the flashers are plenty bright at a distance as well as off axis up close, as they were designed to be.
4) As for the 2Z, the bar I posted the picture of is one of several bought by myself at the auction. I went with a friend who worked for NYC and together we bought about 20 bars, he was going to resell his and I wanted a few for a project I had that never got past first base. I sold the others but kept one at home for display. I'm familiar with the old NYC Housing Police, Transit Police, Health & Hospitals Police, etc etc but there were none of those there that day. The bars we bought were all take-offs from blue & white NYPD vehicles, some were in pretty rough shape but after disassembling a bunch of them I don't recall any saying 2Z on them. And I've seen many NYPD bars.
I'm not going to dispute what other people might own, or think they own, but having been born there, lived there and having bought it from the horse's mouth, I know what's genuine. I have no doubt that your special order replica bar made for you by Fed Sig and shipped to Europe instead of to NYPD says 2Z, but the dozens of real NYPD bars I've seen don't say that. Maybe there were different series purchased by NYC over the years, I don't know. I would have to think mine which is marked "Series A1" is the original. If you look on the internet there are a few references to 24RMVF-2Z but they ALL reference the same Youtube posting where the poster says "yes i know im missing one red bulb." The same quote and reference has been picked up on websites in China, Japan, Germany, Brazil and elsewhere but it's all a copy of the same single quote. That hardly counts as "verification." And remember that you're basing your comments on your own special order bar which was never owned or used by NYPD.
2) If you look at the Fed Sig parts breakdown for the AeroDynic model 24, you'll see that the flashing lamps are specified as #4414. On the original AeroDynic they were used as end lamps, on the NYPD 24RMVF bar they were used as inboard flashers. However, same mounting assembly, same bulb:
http://www.fedsig.com/products/docs/par ... C-24CA.pdf
3) The #4416 spotlight bulb has an 11 x 4 degree beam spread, which makes it excellent for use as a spotlight or as a revolving beacon giving it a sharp flash, but means it is much too narrow to use as a fixed flasher. As a flasher with a 4 degree beam spread, if you are more than 2 degrees off the axis of the vehicle you have very little intensity, pretty useless when parked at a scene. It was common to use just the flashers while double-parked in traffic. With the correct bulb the flashers are plenty bright at a distance as well as off axis up close, as they were designed to be.
4) As for the 2Z, the bar I posted the picture of is one of several bought by myself at the auction. I went with a friend who worked for NYC and together we bought about 20 bars, he was going to resell his and I wanted a few for a project I had that never got past first base. I sold the others but kept one at home for display. I'm familiar with the old NYC Housing Police, Transit Police, Health & Hospitals Police, etc etc but there were none of those there that day. The bars we bought were all take-offs from blue & white NYPD vehicles, some were in pretty rough shape but after disassembling a bunch of them I don't recall any saying 2Z on them. And I've seen many NYPD bars.
I'm not going to dispute what other people might own, or think they own, but having been born there, lived there and having bought it from the horse's mouth, I know what's genuine. I have no doubt that your special order replica bar made for you by Fed Sig and shipped to Europe instead of to NYPD says 2Z, but the dozens of real NYPD bars I've seen don't say that. Maybe there were different series purchased by NYC over the years, I don't know. I would have to think mine which is marked "Series A1" is the original. If you look on the internet there are a few references to 24RMVF-2Z but they ALL reference the same Youtube posting where the poster says "yes i know im missing one red bulb." The same quote and reference has been picked up on websites in China, Japan, Germany, Brazil and elsewhere but it's all a copy of the same single quote. That hardly counts as "verification." And remember that you're basing your comments on your own special order bar which was never owned or used by NYPD.
JohnMarcson
Administrator
I'm pretty sure anything with a "Z" in it indicates a special order.... I'm not saying NYPD didn't have some series "z" bars, but I don't think that was their main stock. Someone needs to contact federal and get the model number of a NYPD aerotwin... I'm pretty sure it won't have "Z" in it.
My own bar is not a replica.
It is a genuine Federal 24RMVF and it was NOT ordered as a special order.
It was ordered as a standard bar with the same lenses as NYPD.
It is NOT marked 2Z and I have never referd my bar as a reference for a NYPD bar.
I only stated how it was equipped when delivered.
I can only assure you that ALL the bars I looked inside in 1987 where marked 24RMVF-2Z.
Belive me when I say that they where marked 2Z and that no one had flood sealed beams.
NYPD would have bought up against 10000 bars during the time they used the AeroTwinSonic.
I can only assume that there might have been different marked and equipped bars in all the batches Federal delivered.
It was this forum I talked about not YouTube.
It is a genuine Federal 24RMVF and it was NOT ordered as a special order.
It was ordered as a standard bar with the same lenses as NYPD.
It is NOT marked 2Z and I have never referd my bar as a reference for a NYPD bar.
I only stated how it was equipped when delivered.
I can only assure you that ALL the bars I looked inside in 1987 where marked 24RMVF-2Z.
Belive me when I say that they where marked 2Z and that no one had flood sealed beams.
NYPD would have bought up against 10000 bars during the time they used the AeroTwinSonic.
I can only assume that there might have been different marked and equipped bars in all the batches Federal delivered.
It was this forum I talked about not YouTube.
JohnMarcson
Administrator
An e-mail to federal signal should clear this up.... with the volume NYPD ordered, I suppose anything is possible.
Perhaps the 2Z designation indicated the bars were ordered with 4416 lamps for the flashers instead of the standard 4414 lamps?
denko3
Member
NPS Ranger
Member
Anything's possible with NYC, I've seen takeoff AeroTwins with 7400R in place of 4464R and 4416 in place of 4464. It's certainly possible that shop people may have substituted 4416 for the 4414 if they ran out. Also, the bar prior to the AeroTwin was the Signal-Stat bar with two 4-beam beacons using red/clear 4416/7400 bulbs so maybe they were trying to use up old stock of bulbs.
That being said, the overwhelming majority of AeroTwins on the street had the correct faceted bulbs in the inboard flasher positions. It was easy to tell, non-faceted bulbs would have stood out like using non-faceted spotlight bulbs for headlights. The older Signal-Stat bars also had faceted inboard flashers, red to front and amber to rear which gave the same effect as Adam-12 can lights except that the red was flashing to front, and not steady. If you look at Adam-12 where they turn on the front/rear roof lights, it would have just looked "wrong" if they used non-faceted spotlight bulbs in there:
[Broken External Image]:http://www.1adam12-1adam12.com/images/red_1.jpg
So I'm not commenting on what may/may not have been substituted over the years in some bars, only about what was the correct model number for the lightbar which was the question posed by the OP. There are 76 police precincts in NYC plus all sorts of special commands, each one has a sizeable fleet of vehicles. That translates into thousands of lightbars, I suspect NYPD was the largest single customer for AeroTwinSonics in the USA. It's hard to imagine such a high volume model would routinely be marked with a special order code.
That being said, the overwhelming majority of AeroTwins on the street had the correct faceted bulbs in the inboard flasher positions. It was easy to tell, non-faceted bulbs would have stood out like using non-faceted spotlight bulbs for headlights. The older Signal-Stat bars also had faceted inboard flashers, red to front and amber to rear which gave the same effect as Adam-12 can lights except that the red was flashing to front, and not steady. If you look at Adam-12 where they turn on the front/rear roof lights, it would have just looked "wrong" if they used non-faceted spotlight bulbs in there:
[Broken External Image]:http://www.1adam12-1adam12.com/images/red_1.jpg
So I'm not commenting on what may/may not have been substituted over the years in some bars, only about what was the correct model number for the lightbar which was the question posed by the OP. There are 76 police precincts in NYC plus all sorts of special commands, each one has a sizeable fleet of vehicles. That translates into thousands of lightbars, I suspect NYPD was the largest single customer for AeroTwinSonics in the USA. It's hard to imagine such a high volume model would routinely be marked with a special order code.
I sincerely hope that CFD125 does not mind, but I was rummaging through his PhotoBucket albums and found some evidence of the model 24RMVF-2Z.
So it does exist.
So it does exist.
NPS Ranger
Member
Cool, same series A1 frame too! If it was for NYPD I wonder what set it apart from the regular ones so they labeled it differently?
NPS Ranger
Member
I wrote to FedSig and asked what was the correct bulb for the inboard flashers on the model 24RMVF and they replied:
"The part number is Z8107A102A."
Which corresponds to "Lamp, PAR 4414" on their PDF parts list for the AeroDynic 24C/24CA. They don't have a separate parts list for the 24RMVF, and the parts list for the 24R/24X doesn't cover inboard flashers.
"The part number is Z8107A102A."
Which corresponds to "Lamp, PAR 4414" on their PDF parts list for the AeroDynic 24C/24CA. They don't have a separate parts list for the 24RMVF, and the parts list for the 24R/24X doesn't cover inboard flashers.
Can we agree of that it seems to have been at least two different versions of the NYPD AeroTwinSonic, the 24RMVF and 24RMVF-2Z?
For my own part I wrote down the model number 24RMVF-2Z in my note book at the same time that I read it inside one of the AeroTwinSonics on one of NYPD's patrol cars. This was in June 1987 on Manhattan.
I still have this note book and it still says, 24RMVF-2Z.
I looked inside several others with the same model number.
Unfortenately it was impossible to read the numbers on the back of the sealed beams inside the bar.
These bars stood out in the traffic. The red and amber flashing lights impressed me because you saw them many blocks away. The 4414 can not do that.
At the time I was sure that these sealed beams where 4416's but they might have been 4464's.
For my own part I wrote down the model number 24RMVF-2Z in my note book at the same time that I read it inside one of the AeroTwinSonics on one of NYPD's patrol cars. This was in June 1987 on Manhattan.
I still have this note book and it still says, 24RMVF-2Z.
I looked inside several others with the same model number.
Unfortenately it was impossible to read the numbers on the back of the sealed beams inside the bar.
These bars stood out in the traffic. The red and amber flashing lights impressed me because you saw them many blocks away. The 4414 can not do that.
At the time I was sure that these sealed beams where 4416's but they might have been 4464's.
Last edited by a moderator:
What I'm guessing is the change in model number reflected a change in the lamps ordered by the NYPD. I'm thinking the 24RMVF was ordered first, NYPD decided the faceted 4414 bulb was not sufficiently bright for their purposes as a flashing light, so they requested 4416 or 4464 lamps be substituted in subsequent orders, Fed Sig assigns the -2Z designation to indicate the request. Makes sense to me, now if we could get confirmation from Fed Sig, that would be great!
toon80
Member
This is for Ryan....
Well, well... Did the NYPD ever used Twinsonics 12EVF?
http://copcardotcom.fotki.com/contributions_by_state/new_mexico_through/new_york/donnel~1.html#media
Well, well... Did the NYPD ever used Twinsonics 12EVF?
http://copcardotcom.fotki.com/contributions_by_state/new_mexico_through/new_york/donnel~1.html#media
Well... NYPD used 12MEVF on a lot of units... some used larger lightbars, similar to the aerotwinsonic they used....
toon80 said:
That photo is grainy and it's not real easy to tell, but I don't think I'm seeing the "V" mirrors, so that would be a 12MEF without the mirror option. A 12MEF without mirrors would make sense as NYPD specified their Signal Stat Dual Comm's without mirrors. That's got to be the first photo I've seen of an NYPD car with a TwinSonic.
Last edited by a moderator:
smitty711
Member
if you look very closely at the bar it is a short twinsonic and it appears to have stationary lighting on the inside next to the speakers...on the driver side it looks like behind the stationary light on the inside another light rear facing stationary module is behind that ....i could be wrong but i exploded the pic almost set up like the aerotwins if i am correct
Last edited by a moderator:
To clear up some confusion, the NYPD did use the Twinsonic on the Plymouth Volares, in the same configuration (inboard front and rear flahers, outboard rotators) as the Aerotwinsonics under discussion here that followed.
As I recall (I worked in all of them):
1977 and 1978 plymouth Fury- Signal Stat enclosed lightbars
1979 Plymouth Volare- same Signal Stat bar
1980 Plymouth Volare- FedSig Twinsonic & Signal Stat
1981 Chrysler LeBaron- back to Signal Stat
1982-1987, 1989 Plymouth Gran Fury- same Aerotwinsonic
1988 Chevrolet Caprice- same Aerotwinsonic
1990 Chevrolet Caprice- same Aerotwinsonic now with switchbox
for seperately switched flasher and rotator
1991 to present- originally halogen, now LED FedSig Premium Vision
Prior to the advent of the Premium V-bars, HWY Patrol RMPs (sometimes different make and or model than Pct RMPs), Patrol vans and SUVs all had matching bars as above listed precinct RMPs for the corresponding model years. When the Premium V-bars arrived in 1992 (on 1991 model year Caprices) the vans and SUVs continued with standard straight bars(Aerotwins, Streethawks, Vistas, etc), only recently are they coming with the Premium V-bars.
Prior to the merge of the Transit and Housing Police Depts into the NYPD, they frequently used different bars from the NYPD such as Streethawks, standard Aerodynics and a candystriped Whelen bar.
As I recall (I worked in all of them):
1977 and 1978 plymouth Fury- Signal Stat enclosed lightbars
1979 Plymouth Volare- same Signal Stat bar
1980 Plymouth Volare- FedSig Twinsonic & Signal Stat
1981 Chrysler LeBaron- back to Signal Stat
1982-1987, 1989 Plymouth Gran Fury- same Aerotwinsonic
1988 Chevrolet Caprice- same Aerotwinsonic
1990 Chevrolet Caprice- same Aerotwinsonic now with switchbox
for seperately switched flasher and rotator
1991 to present- originally halogen, now LED FedSig Premium Vision
Prior to the advent of the Premium V-bars, HWY Patrol RMPs (sometimes different make and or model than Pct RMPs), Patrol vans and SUVs all had matching bars as above listed precinct RMPs for the corresponding model years. When the Premium V-bars arrived in 1992 (on 1991 model year Caprices) the vans and SUVs continued with standard straight bars(Aerotwins, Streethawks, Vistas, etc), only recently are they coming with the Premium V-bars.
Prior to the merge of the Transit and Housing Police Depts into the NYPD, they frequently used different bars from the NYPD such as Streethawks, standard Aerodynics and a candystriped Whelen bar.
Last edited by a moderator:
CFD125
Member
I have owned three NYPD AeroTwinsonics, and all three have had the -2Z designation, as shown in the picture that stansdds posted.
Two of them came to me with 4414 faceted bulbs in the flasher housings, and 4464 spot bulbs in the rotators.
The third one had all the wrong bulbs in it. It even had the wimpy 4411 rubber worklight bulbs in the rotators.
I have no proof that any of them were actually in service with the NYPD, but two of them came from New York City, and one from northern New Jersey.
I'm comfortable with the assumption that they are actual NYPD bars.
On a side note for those that cannot find the 4414 bulbs for the flashers, the 4411 is a very common, cheap bulb that closely resembles the 4414, and would look just fine in the bar.
Most truck & auto parts stores sell Par36 rubber tractor/work lights with a 4411 bulb in them for around $8.99 - $10.99 each.
Two of them came to me with 4414 faceted bulbs in the flasher housings, and 4464 spot bulbs in the rotators.
The third one had all the wrong bulbs in it. It even had the wimpy 4411 rubber worklight bulbs in the rotators.
I have no proof that any of them were actually in service with the NYPD, but two of them came from New York City, and one from northern New Jersey.
I'm comfortable with the assumption that they are actual NYPD bars.
On a side note for those that cannot find the 4414 bulbs for the flashers, the 4411 is a very common, cheap bulb that closely resembles the 4414, and would look just fine in the bar.
Most truck & auto parts stores sell Par36 rubber tractor/work lights with a 4411 bulb in them for around $8.99 - $10.99 each.
prior to the big merger of all 3 depts.......
transit was using some type of whelen bar , with a speaker on top...... ( honestly i do not know alot about vintage stuff, its not my thing)
and housing was using streethawks
transit was using some type of whelen bar , with a speaker on top...... ( honestly i do not know alot about vintage stuff, its not my thing)
and housing was using streethawks
toon80
Member
For the correct flash pattern, are the rotator on a NYPD Aero parallel to each other or offset 90 degrees from one another?
Browsing through ELB pics, I see both, although I see more 90 degrees ones.
Browsing through ELB pics, I see both, although I see more 90 degrees ones.
NPS Ranger
Member
toon80 said:
They were set up exactly like the original Twinsonic, counter-rotating bulbs that were in sync, so if you were exactly in front or exactly in back of the bar they would both flash at the same time. They were not 90 degrees out of phase. However I've seen the real ones in the field set up where both reds and both clears flashed together, and where one red and one clear flashed together.
The Model 11 Twin Beacon Ray with same-direction-rotating bulbs were 90 degrees out of phase.
Remember, the rotators didn't really "flash", they simply peaked at the specific point you were looking straight at them as rotated thru your field of view, creating the effect of a flash.
The standard setup was one red and one clear bulb per rotator parallel to the opposite rotator i.e, if the rotators 'parked' facing straight front and rear, the reds would face one direction, the clears the opposite. I once modified the bar on my "steady" RMP by reversing the setup on one rotator side to achieve an alternating colored "flash" pattern, but I never liked the clear bulb because it interfered with your night vision after dark, so ultimately I removed the clear bulbs from the rotators and replaced them with a second red bulb for a consistent color "flash" pattern. I continued that practice with every RMP I used on a steady basis until we transitioned to the Visions.
The standard setup was one red and one clear bulb per rotator parallel to the opposite rotator i.e, if the rotators 'parked' facing straight front and rear, the reds would face one direction, the clears the opposite. I once modified the bar on my "steady" RMP by reversing the setup on one rotator side to achieve an alternating colored "flash" pattern, but I never liked the clear bulb because it interfered with your night vision after dark, so ultimately I removed the clear bulbs from the rotators and replaced them with a second red bulb for a consistent color "flash" pattern. I continued that practice with every RMP I used on a steady basis until we transitioned to the Visions.
PC Comms
Member
Well guess what I picked up today folks. I might be able to put this whole argument to rest once and for all. Pics to follow later this evening once I do some cleaning. ;-)
toon80
Member
PC Comms
Member
toon80 said:I'm guessing something that has "2Z" stamped somewhere...
ABSOLUTELY!!! lol Picked this up today from a local FD that has had it sitting on a shelf for AT LEAST the last the last 15 years and I know FOR A FACT that it is an NYPD bar because I know the retired officer that "appropriated" it and donated it to the fire department. This is a model 24RMVF-2Z and it still has the original NYPD lenses on it. The only thing I did to this bar was hose it down and give it a wipe with a clean towel. I took a bunch of pics and the last five shots are videos. Just double click on them and they will open. Everything works properly on it and here is what I found with the bulbs:
Flasher bulbs - GE 4416
Red rotator bulbs - No markings other than 378 on the front and 299 on the back of one and 373 on the front and 317 on the back of the other.
Clear rotator bulbs - No markings other than 212 on the back and 275 on the front of one and 272 on the back and 250 on the front of the other.
Speaker - Federal Signal TS-100
I hope this resolves this debate once and for all.
toon80
Member
Well you finally managed to get one, after all!
Congratulation!
You can say without a doubt that: "She's a natural"
Congratulation!
You can say without a doubt that: "She's a natural"