Poor reception (mobile scanner)

codycat91

Member
Feb 17, 2011
731
NY
I have a bearcat 355c and a Larsen 150/450/800 antenna on a trunk lip mount. My Motorola minitor picks up my dispatch channel clearer and from much farther away than the scanner. I would think that the scanner, with an actual exterior antenna, should pick up better than a minitor inside my vehicle. Is there anything I can do to make it better or troubleshoot?


I realize the lip mount isn't the best option, but I don't want it to be permanent at this point. Even with the lip mount, I feel it should be better than it is
 

CHIEFOPS

Member
Jan 24, 2011
1,533
NYC
Is your unsatisfactory reception sudden or since installation?


You need to do some troubleshooting- damaged coax, shorted antenna mount, damaged antenna jack on radio...
 

wilsonbr90

Member
Sep 30, 2013
1,427
Corning, New York
Also at what band is your dispatch. My monitor always picked up much better than a scanner, but for a reason. My antenna isn't meant for my dispatch, and because a scanner runs on multiple channels you need to have the squelch set higher for different frequencies. As a given channel you can have the squelch set at one point, but that might mean static on a different one. Get what I'm saying?
 

Steve0625

Member
Jun 23, 2010
1,213
Northville NY
CHIEFOPS said:
Is your unsatisfactory reception sudden or since installation?
You need to do some troubleshooting- damaged coax, shorted antenna mount, damaged antenna jack on radio...
+1 on this.


Also, use a multimeter and verify the voltage your scanner is getting when the car is running. If you aren't seeing at least 12 vdc, there's a problem that will almost certainly affect how well the scanner receives..


When I install antennas, I use dielectric grease on all mating surfaces including the antenna base where it fastens to the mount and on all other metal surfaces. After installing the antenna and coax but before connecting to the radio, I use a meter and verify that the center conductor of the coax and the antenna do not show a short to ground. I check this at the mount before installing the antenna and at the radio connector. I also double check that there is a zero resistance circuit from the center pin of the radio connector all the way to the tip of the antenna.


The radio needs to be properly grounded as well. Grounds should be to a factory ground in the vehicle and use dielectric grease here as well. The coax ground is NOT adequate for this under any circumstances.
 

codycat91

Member
Feb 17, 2011
731
NY
Radio is grounded to same ground under the dash as a few other things. Dispatch is 454.0875, it's been since installation, and it is clear when I am nearby, but the clarity seems to fade quickly when I get more than a few miles out of town. It's not like a live in a mountainous region either, I'm in a suburb of Buffalo
 
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Jarred J.

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 21, 2010
11,587
Shelbyville, TN
get a bigger antenna:D
 

CHIEFOPS

Member
Jan 24, 2011
1,533
NYC
Try a different stick. I swear by the Comtelco triband A11331Z.


You also have to remember your Minitor is a radio receiver with a single narrow receiver band tuned to your freq while a scanner is a multi-band receiver, to accomplish that wide frequency spectrum coverage it gives up some performance, some scanners more than others.
 

ful-vue

New Member
Aug 16, 2012
299
Pennsylvania
codycat91 said:
Dispatch is 454.0874, it's been since installation, and it is clear when I am nearby, but the clarity seems to fade quickly when I get more than a few miles out of town.

I'm assuming that's a typo and you meant 454.0875.
 

Skip Goulet

Member
Feb 23, 2011
4,241
Midland, TX
codycat91 said:
Radio is grounded to same ground under the dash as a few other things. Dispatch is 454.0875, it's been since installation, and it is clear when I am nearby, but the clarity seems to fade quickly when I get more than a few miles out of town. It's not like a live in a mountainous region either, I'm in a suburb of Buffalo

Is your agency using a repeater on that radio frequency? If it isn't then you just have line-of-sight transmissions, and on the UHF bands, it's much shorter range. If you have a repeater, than there's another problem somewhere. And I would agree with everyone else...something in the antenna.
 

codycat91

Member
Feb 17, 2011
731
NY
Is there really a big difference in quality with the coax cables? Because thst really the only thing I got that is "generic"
 
May 10, 2012
156
New England
Assuming the coax and connectors are good, I am going to also add a +1 to the suggestion of a real UHF-tuned antenna if receiving in that band is particularly important to you. Or even a good ol' simple 18" steel whip.
 

CHIEFOPS

Member
Jan 24, 2011
1,533
NYC
codycat91 said:
Is there really a big difference in quality with the coax cables? Because thst really the only thing I got that is "generic"

Well you really want 'low-loss' coax. But you could have a damaged coax/ant line causing your issue, that's why a continuity test is a good idea to rule out the plug, coax or ant mount. You should also open the radio and inspect the ant jack wiring.
 

tvsjr

Member
Oct 7, 2012
611
TX
Geez... Occam's razor, guys.


If the scanner doesn't work nearly as well as a Minitor (which is, by definition, pretty deaf), something is wrong. He doesn't need a bigger whoop-aerial or "low loss" coax. If the scanner is behaving properly, it's highly unlikely there is a power problem. A properly-performing scanner connected to any reasonable omnidirectional external antenna with any coax (even two 18ga. wires twisted together) should outperform a pager.


Pull the scanner out and try one of the standard extendable antennas on it. Does it hear properly? If not, you have a scanner problem. If so, you have an antenna problem - with the immediate suspect being the installation of the antenna connector.
 

Skip Goulet

Member
Feb 23, 2011
4,241
Midland, TX
ful-vue said:
I'm wondering if narrowbanding could be an issue here as well. The 355C doesn't do narrow.

Good thought. Also, the frequency suggests a possible digital frequency, but if that were the case, all he would get is noise and no voice at all.
 

codycat91

Member
Feb 17, 2011
731
NY
One thing I have noticed is the 154 freq is crystal clear from a very good distance, however the 423 and 454 freq's are not very good.


So the quality of the 154 leads me to believe there's nothing actually malfunctioning or broke. Also, they are all analog
 

Skip Goulet

Member
Feb 23, 2011
4,241
Midland, TX
codycat91 said:
One thing I have noticed is the 154 freq is crystal clear from a very good distance, however the 423 and 454 freq's are not very good.

So the quality of the 154 leads me to believe there's nothing actually malfunctioning or broke. Also, they are all analog

If those UHF channels are not on a repeater, then you're getting only "line of sight" reception, and UHF signals tend to be weak.
 

codycat91

Member
Feb 17, 2011
731
NY
ful-vue said:
What are you monitoring at 423 MHz?

454 is our main F-1


423 is our secondary F-3


Our dispatch and chiefs use F-1, while all other apparatus use F-3. The reasoning for that is because we are currently sharing the F-1 with out neighboring town, so it frees up the air a bit more. It is extremely annoying and frustrating
 

ful-vue

New Member
Aug 16, 2012
299
Pennsylvania
codycat91 said:
423 is our secondary F-3

Are you sure about that? The 420 - 450 MHz band isn't in a normal public safety allocation. It's Federal, Military or Amateur.


Update: Well, that's a new one on me. I checked the RadioReference DB, and sure enough there are 423 MHz tac frequencies in Erie County. You learn something new everyday.


Carry on.
 
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codycat91

Member
Feb 17, 2011
731
NY
ful-vue said:
Are you sure about that? The 420 - 450 MHz band isn't in a normal public safety allocation. It's Federal, Military or Amateur.

Update: Well, that's a new one on me. I checked the RadioReference DB, and sure enough there are 423 MHz tac frequencies in Erie County. You learn something new everyday.


Carry on.

Yes sir :)
 

tvsjr

Member
Oct 7, 2012
611
TX
He's across Line A. Canada and the area north of Line A uses 420-430 as public safety allocations.
 

Rhinojoe

Member
May 26, 2010
83
Exempt
codycat91 said:
I have a bearcat 355c and a Larsen 150/450/800 antenna on a trunk lip mount. My Motorola minitor picks up my dispatch channel clearer and from much farther away than the scanner. I would think that the scanner, with an actual exterior antenna, should pick up better than a minitor inside my vehicle. Is there anything I can do to make it better or troubleshoot?

I realize the lip mount isn't the best option, but I don't want it to be permanent at this point. Even with the lip mount, I feel it should be better than it is

Just a few ideas/thoughts;


Your Motorola Minitor more than likely has a more sensitive "front end" vs your Bearcat. In order to increase receive signal strength is to install an antenna that has more dB.


Sometimes adjacent towns with repeaters using the same freqs will "de-tune" their repeaters, (and/or rearrange antenna patterns) in order to avoid De-Sense with adjacent repeaters. Changing receive locations will sometimes show an increase/decrease in signal strength.


In the Spring some repeater sites will have experienced changes with external(outside) gear which affects repeater performance, (ice, wind damage etc).


Times of the day effect "propagation" such as weather, traffic, multipath bounce, Power Line Noise etc.


The only accurate way to tell if it's not your equipment is to use a Field Strength Meter to measure the repeater's signal at a specific location at a specific time of day.


If you know the Repeater Tech as for an RF Field Strength Study Map. That'll give you an idea of any nulls in your area.
 

mm2k5

Member
Jan 7, 2012
170
Southern Missouri
Do you happen to have an extra antenna around for the 450 band you are wanting? I would start with that and if it receives like you want, then look into another antenna for all the bands that you need/want.
 

codycat91

Member
Feb 17, 2011
731
NY
mm2k5 said:
Do you happen to have an extra antenna around for the 450 band you are wanting? I would start with that and if it receives like you want, then look into another antenna for all the bands that you need/want.

I only have the Larsen 150/450/800


Can you make any recommendations?
 

mm2k5

Member
Jan 7, 2012
170
Southern Missouri
codycat91 said:
I only have the Larsen 150/450/800

Can you make any recommendations?

If I were testing I would try the NMOQW450 just to see if that would clear it up better. It can be found for less than 15 shipped.


I will have to look a little more into the tri band antenna.
 

CodeMan

Member
Dec 27, 2012
543
Central Florida
This guy swears he has the best Scanner reception... ;)


ant2.jpg


(tough crowd) :undecided:


My failed attempt at being funny with the Bigger antenna pic, I digress back into topic.


I have used the Larsen NMO 2/70C for a multi band scanner ant. (pre 800mhz) and the Larsen NMO 27B for my CB radio back in the 90's . The Larsen NMO 2/70C was mounted on the roof & the Larsen NMO 27B on trunk lid. Both worked very well.. Remember the vehicle is like that of a ground plane for TX & RX so placement does effect both at times. police and fire radios typically have multiple repeater location sites dotted around their coverage area so antenna placement may not be a big issue (At times I have found my car am/fm radio ant. that is mounted on right side and depending if I have the left front corner pointed towards Tampa I can hear certain radio stations, and if I turn and the right side is pointed towards Tampa the signal will fade out to static). Maybe its just me & the signal wave skip? I know in real rural areas some use a mobile signal booster and have better results. as they may have mountains or large dence buildings that the signal waves get bounced off of.


mobileant.jpg


So if that's not what your experiencing, then yes could be a coax issue as others have said...


Examples of radio waves.

thSCK4C70V.jpg

radio_waves_paths_s.jpg
 
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codycat91

Member
Feb 17, 2011
731
NY
ful-vue said:
Brand-name mount/coax? (i.e.: is it Larsen - did it come with the antenna)? If not, I would consider trying another mount and coax.

Idk what brand, I believe it's just generic
 

Skip Goulet

Member
Feb 23, 2011
4,241
Midland, TX
CodeMan said:
This guy swears he has the best Scanner reception... ;)

View attachment 74567


(tough crowd) :undecided:


My failed attempt at being funny with the Bigger antenna pic, I digress back into topic.


I have used the Larsen NMO 2/70C for a multi band scanner ant. (pre 800mhz) and the Larsen NMO 27B for my CB radio back in the 90's . The Larsen NMO 2/70C was mounted on the roof & the Larsen NMO 27B on trunk lid. Both worked very well.. Remember the vehicle is like that of a ground plane for TX & RX so placement does effect both at times. police and fire radios typically have multiple repeater location sites dotted around their coverage area so antenna placement may not be a big issue (At times I have found my car am/fm radio ant. that is mounted on right side and depending if I have the left front corner pointed towards Tampa I can hear certain radio stations, and if I turn and the right side is pointed towards Tampa the signal will fade out to static). Maybe its just me & the signal wave skip? I know in real rural areas some use a mobile signal booster and have better results. as they may have mountains or large dence buildings that the signal waves get bounced off of.


View attachment 74605


So if that's not what your experiencing, then yes could be a coax issue as others have said...


Examples of radio waves.

Now that's something else! I need that rig for my TV. I live well outside the city and have been having problems with reception of certain stations around here. I recently bought an outside antenna. Just need help putting it up (but all of you are too far away). :p


I would agree that the trunk-mount may have issues...especially if it's the old trunkmount that attaches to the top of the trunk lid.


On my Crown Vic, both my highband and lowband antennas are mounted to the sides of the trunk with those newer angle-mounts, and I've never had problems with them.


If it's not the mount location, I'd still consider a coax issue. As I said, the Larsens are among the best antennas. I'm not sure of the manufacturer of my antennas. They're the large base-load models that are available from most two-way shops.
 

CEVS

New Member
Jun 1, 2010
264
NJ
I'm quite positive the antenna isn't the problem. Have you taken the antenna off the mount and checked the contacts? Take the antenna that came with the scanner and install that for a bit and see if it improves, and I'm thinking it will. My guess would be the antenna connector, if not a damaged coax cable.
 

Jarred J.

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 21, 2010
11,587
Shelbyville, TN
just in case folks are wondering that vehicle is a "rover" for what looks like a vhf contest where you try to work as many grid squares as possible
 

Rhinojoe

Member
May 26, 2010
83
Exempt
codycat91 said:
Radio is grounded to same ground under the dash as a few other things. Dispatch is 454.0875, it's been since installation, and it is clear when I am nearby, but the clarity seems to fade quickly when I get more than a few miles out of town. It's not like a live in a mountainous region either, I'm in a suburb of Buffalo

Here's what I was trying to convey in the other post. VHF/UHF can sometimes play havoc due to numerous variables. Techs in the Industry refer to this as "Black Science" as it sometimes cannot be explained but experienced in real time.


Multipath fading affects most forms of radio communications links in one form or another. Multipath fading can be detected on many signals across the frequency spectrum from the HF bands right up to microwaves and beyond. It is experienced not only by short wave radio communications where signals fade in and out over a period of time, but it is also experienced by many other forms of radio communications systems including cellular telecommunications and many other users of the VHF and UHF spectrum.


Multipath fading occurs in any environment where there is multipath propagation and there is some movement of elements within the radio communications system. This may include the radio transmitter or receiver position, or in the elements that give rise to the reflections. The multipath fading can often be relatively deep, i.e. the signals fade completely away, whereas at other times the fading may not cause the signal to fall below a useable strength.


Multipath fading may also cause distortion to the radio signal. As the various paths that can be taken by the signals vary in length, the signal transmitted at a particular instance will arrive at the receiver over a spread of times. This can cause problems with phase distortion and intersymbol interference when data transmissions are made. As a result, it may be necessary to incorporate features within the radio communications system that enables the effects of these problems to be minimised.


Multipath fading basics


Multipath fading is a feature that needs to be taken into account when designing or developing a radio communications system. In any terrestrial radio communications system, the signal will reach the receiver not only via the direct path, but also as a result of reflections from objects such as buildings, hills, ground, water, etc that are adjacent to the main path.


The overall signal at the radio receiver is a summation of the variety of signals being received. As they all have different path lengths, the signals will add and subtract from the total dependent upon their relative phases.


At times there will be changes in the relative path lengths. This could result from either the radio transmitter or receiver moving, or any of the objects that provides a reflective surface moving. This will result in the phases of the signals arriving at the receiver changing, and in turn this will result in the signal strength varying as a result of the different way in which the signals will sum together. It is this that causes the fading that is present on many signals.


Selective and flat fading


Multipath fading can affect radio communications channels in two main ways. This can given the way in which the effects of the multipath fading are mitigated.


Flat fading: This form of multipath fading affects all the frequencies across a given channel either equally or almost equally. When flat multipath fading is experienced, the signal will just change in amplitude, rising and falling over a period of time, or with movement from one position to another.


Selective fading: Selective fading occurs when the multipath fading affects different frequencies across the channel to different degrees. It will mean that the phases and amplitudes of the signal will vary across the channel. Sometimes relatively deep nulls may be experienced, and this can give rise to some reception problems. Simply maintaining the overall amplitude of the received signal will not overcome the effects of selective fading, and some form of equalization may be needed. Some digital signal formats, e.g. OFDM are able to spread the data over a wide channel so that only a portion of the data is lost by any nulls. This can be reconstituted using forward error correction techniques and in this way it can mitigate the effects of selective multipath fading.


Selective multipath fading occurs because even though the path length will be change by the same physical length (e.g. the same number of metres, yards, miles, etc) this represents a different proportion of a wavelength. Accordingly the phase will change across the bandwidth used.


Selective fading can occur over many frequencies. It can often be noticed when medium wave broadcast stations are received in the evening via ground wave and skywave. The phases of the signals received via the two means of propagation change with time and this causes the overall received signal to change. As the multipath fading is very dependent on path length, it is found that it affects the frequencies over even the bandwidth of an AM broadcast signal to be affected differently and distortion results.


Selective multipath fading is also experienced at higher frequencies, and with high data rate signals becoming commonplace wider bandwidths are needed. As a result nulls and peaks may occur across the bandwidth of a single signal.


Cellular multipath fading


Cellular telecommunications is subject to multipath fading. There are a variety of reasons for this. The first is that the mobile station or user is likely to be moving, and as a result the path lengths of all the signals being received are changing. The second is that many objects around may also be moving. Automobiles and even people will cause reflections that will have a significant effect on the received signal. Accordingly multipath fading has a major bearing on cellular telecommunications.


Often the multipath fading that affects cellular phones is known as fast fading because it occurs over a relatively short distance. Slow fading occurs as a cell phone moves behind an obstruction and the signal slowly fades out.


The fast signal variations caused by multipath fading can be detected even over a short distance. Assume a frequency of 2 GHz (e.g. a typical approximate frequency value for many 3G phones). The wavelength can be calculated as:


λ = c / f


= 3 x 108 / 2 x 109


= 0.15 metres


Where:


c = speed of light in metres per second


f = frequency in Hertz


To move from a signal being in phase to a signal being out of phase is equivalent to increasing the path length by half a wavelength or 0.075m, or 7.5 cms. This example looks at a very simplified example. In reality the situation is far more complicated with signals being received via many paths. However it does give an indication of the distances involved to change from an in-phase to an out of phase situation.


Ionospheric multipath fading


Short wave radio communications is renowned for its fading. Signals that are reflected via the ionosphere, vary considerably in signal strength. These variations in strength are primarily caused by multipath fading.


When signals are propagated via the ionosphere it is possible for the energy to be propagated from the transmitter to the receiver via very many different paths. Simple diagrams show a single ray or path that the signal takes. In reality the profile of the electron density of the ionosphere (it is the electron density profile that causes the signals to be refracted) is not smooth and as a result any signals entering the ionosphere will be scattered and will take a variety of paths to reach a particular receiver. With changes in the ionosphere causing the path lengths to change, this will result in the phases changing and the overall summation at the receiver changing. [see the pages on ionospheric propagation within the Radio Wave Propagation section of this website for further details of this form of propagation].


The changes in the ionosphere arise from a number of factors. One is that the levels of ionisation vary, although these changes normally occur relatively slowly, but nevertheless have an effect. In addition to this there are winds or air movements in the ionosphere. As the levels of ionisation are not constant, any air movement will cause changes in the profile of the electron density in the ionosphere. In turn this will affect the path lengths.


Tropospheric multipath fading


Many signals using frequencies at VHF and above are affected by the troposphere. The signal is refracted as a result of the changes in refractive index occurring, especially within the first kilometres above the ground. This can cause signals to travel beyond the line of sight. In fact for broadcast applications a figure of 4/3 of the visual line of sight is used for the radio horizon. However under some circumstances relatively abrupt changes in refractive index occurring as a result of weather conditions can cause the distances over which signals travel to be increased. Signals may then be "ducted" by the ionosphere over distances up to a few hundred kilometres. [see the pages on tropospheric propagation within the Radio Wave Propagation section of this website for further details of this form of propagation].


When signals are ducted in this way, they will be subject to multipath fading. Here, heat rising from the Earth's surface will ensure that the path is always changing and signals will vary in strength. Typically these changes may be relatively slow with signals falling and rising in strength over a period of a number of minutes.


Multipath fading is a feature of many radio communications links. Multipath fading occurs as a result of the many signal paths that are in existence on all terrestrial radio communications links whether they are used for applications such as cellular telecommunications, mobile radio, or for HF or VHF radio communications. As such it is necessary to account for multipath fading in the design of many radio communications systems.


By Ian Poole http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/propagation/multipath/multipath-fading.php
 

CodeMan

Member
Dec 27, 2012
543
Central Florida
Rhinojoe said:
Here's what I was trying to convey in the other post. VHF/UHF can sometimes play havoc due to numerous variables. Techs in the Industry refer to this as "Black Science" as it sometimes cannot be explained but experienced in real time.

Multipath fading affects most forms of radio communications links in one form or another. Multipath fading can be detected on many signals across the frequency spectrum from the HF bands right up to microwaves and beyond. It is experienced not only by short wave radio communications where signals fade in and out over a period of time, but it is also experienced by many other forms of radio communications systems including cellular telecommunications and many other users of the VHF and UHF spectrum.


Multipath fading occurs in any environment where there is multipath propagation and there is some movement of elements within the radio communications system. This may include the radio transmitter or receiver position, or in the elements that give rise to the reflections. The multipath fading can often be relatively deep, i.e. the signals fade completely away, whereas at other times the fading may not cause the signal to fall below a useable strength.


Multipath fading may also cause distortion to the radio signal. As the various paths that can be taken by the signals vary in length, the signal transmitted at a particular instance will arrive at the receiver over a spread of times. This can cause problems with phase distortion and intersymbol interference when data transmissions are made. As a result, it may be necessary to incorporate features within the radio communications system that enables the effects of these problems to be minimised.


Multipath fading basics


Multipath fading is a feature that needs to be taken into account when designing or developing a radio communications system. In any terrestrial radio communications system, the signal will reach the receiver not only via the direct path, but also as a result of reflections from objects such as buildings, hills, ground, water, etc that are adjacent to the main path.


The overall signal at the radio receiver is a summation of the variety of signals being received. As they all have different path lengths, the signals will add and subtract from the total dependent upon their relative phases.


At times there will be changes in the relative path lengths. This could result from either the radio transmitter or receiver moving, or any of the objects that provides a reflective surface moving. This will result in the phases of the signals arriving at the receiver changing, and in turn this will result in the signal strength varying as a result of the different way in which the signals will sum together. It is this that causes the fading that is present on many signals.


Selective and flat fading


Multipath fading can affect radio communications channels in two main ways. This can given the way in which the effects of the multipath fading are mitigated.


Flat fading: This form of multipath fading affects all the frequencies across a given channel either equally or almost equally. When flat multipath fading is experienced, the signal will just change in amplitude, rising and falling over a period of time, or with movement from one position to another.


Selective fading: Selective fading occurs when the multipath fading affects different frequencies across the channel to different degrees. It will mean that the phases and amplitudes of the signal will vary across the channel. Sometimes relatively deep nulls may be experienced, and this can give rise to some reception problems. Simply maintaining the overall amplitude of the received signal will not overcome the effects of selective fading, and some form of equalization may be needed. Some digital signal formats, e.g. OFDM are able to spread the data over a wide channel so that only a portion of the data is lost by any nulls. This can be reconstituted using forward error correction techniques and in this way it can mitigate the effects of selective multipath fading.


Selective multipath fading occurs because even though the path length will be change by the same physical length (e.g. the same number of metres, yards, miles, etc) this represents a different proportion of a wavelength. Accordingly the phase will change across the bandwidth used.


Selective fading can occur over many frequencies. It can often be noticed when medium wave broadcast stations are received in the evening via ground wave and skywave. The phases of the signals received via the two means of propagation change with time and this causes the overall received signal to change. As the multipath fading is very dependent on path length, it is found that it affects the frequencies over even the bandwidth of an AM broadcast signal to be affected differently and distortion results.


Selective multipath fading is also experienced at higher frequencies, and with high data rate signals becoming commonplace wider bandwidths are needed. As a result nulls and peaks may occur across the bandwidth of a single signal.


Cellular multipath fading


Cellular telecommunications is subject to multipath fading. There are a variety of reasons for this. The first is that the mobile station or user is likely to be moving, and as a result the path lengths of all the signals being received are changing. The second is that many objects around may also be moving. Automobiles and even people will cause reflections that will have a significant effect on the received signal. Accordingly multipath fading has a major bearing on cellular telecommunications.


Often the multipath fading that affects cellular phones is known as fast fading because it occurs over a relatively short distance. Slow fading occurs as a cell phone moves behind an obstruction and the signal slowly fades out.


The fast signal variations caused by multipath fading can be detected even over a short distance. Assume a frequency of 2 GHz (e.g. a typical approximate frequency value for many 3G phones). The wavelength can be calculated as:


λ = c / f


= 3 x 108 / 2 x 109


= 0.15 metres


Where:


c = speed of light in metres per second


f = frequency in Hertz


To move from a signal being in phase to a signal being out of phase is equivalent to increasing the path length by half a wavelength or 0.075m, or 7.5 cms. This example looks at a very simplified example. In reality the situation is far more complicated with signals being received via many paths. However it does give an indication of the distances involved to change from an in-phase to an out of phase situation.


Ionospheric multipath fading


Short wave radio communications is renowned for its fading. Signals that are reflected via the ionosphere, vary considerably in signal strength. These variations in strength are primarily caused by multipath fading.


When signals are propagated via the ionosphere it is possible for the energy to be propagated from the transmitter to the receiver via very many different paths. Simple diagrams show a single ray or path that the signal takes. In reality the profile of the electron density of the ionosphere (it is the electron density profile that causes the signals to be refracted) is not smooth and as a result any signals entering the ionosphere will be scattered and will take a variety of paths to reach a particular receiver. With changes in the ionosphere causing the path lengths to change, this will result in the phases changing and the overall summation at the receiver changing. [see the pages on ionospheric propagation within the Radio Wave Propagation section of this website for further details of this form of propagation].


The changes in the ionosphere arise from a number of factors. One is that the levels of ionisation vary, although these changes normally occur relatively slowly, but nevertheless have an effect. In addition to this there are winds or air movements in the ionosphere. As the levels of ionisation are not constant, any air movement will cause changes in the profile of the electron density in the ionosphere. In turn this will affect the path lengths.


Tropospheric multipath fading


Many signals using frequencies at VHF and above are affected by the troposphere. The signal is refracted as a result of the changes in refractive index occurring, especially within the first kilometres above the ground. This can cause signals to travel beyond the line of sight. In fact for broadcast applications a figure of 4/3 of the visual line of sight is used for the radio horizon. However under some circumstances relatively abrupt changes in refractive index occurring as a result of weather conditions can cause the distances over which signals travel to be increased. Signals may then be "ducted" by the ionosphere over distances up to a few hundred kilometres. [see the pages on tropospheric propagation within the Radio Wave Propagation section of this website for further details of this form of propagation].


When signals are ducted in this way, they will be subject to multipath fading. Here, heat rising from the Earth's surface will ensure that the path is always changing and signals will vary in strength. Typically these changes may be relatively slow with signals falling and rising in strength over a period of a number of minutes.


Multipath fading is a feature of many radio communications links. Multipath fading occurs as a result of the many signal paths that are in existence on all terrestrial radio communications links whether they are used for applications such as cellular telecommunications, mobile radio, or for HF or VHF radio communications. As such it is necessary to account for multipath fading in the design of many radio communications systems.


By Ian Poole http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/propagation/multipath/multipath-fading.php

Yeah what he said, that was a very through explanation... :drooling: ;)
 

Skip Goulet

Member
Feb 23, 2011
4,241
Midland, TX
codycat91 said:
Wow, thanks for that. I will have to sit down and read that when I have more than a couple minutes

I second the "wow"! Nice explanation. I still think you may have a broken lead inside your coax. If the agency you're receiving is on a repeater, you should be able to receive off a shoestring (a metal one, of course). The problem I run into at home is that I live in a mobile home and get all sorts of reflection off that metal siding. Sometimes it's a royal pain in the ass, but a few times it's benefitted, as I've received stations well over 50 miles away. But in West Texas, weather conditions make a difference, too. Don't know what effect that has on you in NY. Years ago when the low and frequencies were predominant, one of the most common frequencies used in Texas was 37.18. Texas was divided in half: stations west of the Dallas/Ft. Worth area were on 37.18, those east were on 37.26. Units that were apt to be on both sides had both channels if they happened to work back and forth. Now low band VHF picks up a lot of "skip", just like on C.B. And the conditions for skip tend to be cyclical, like heavy in winter and spring, but no so much in the summer and fall. When I lived in Lubbock our ambulances were allowed to operate off of 37.18, and I had a base radio on the channel at home. "At home" at that time was in a seven-story building, and I was allowed to have my C.B., scanner and the ground plane for the low band radio, all mounted on the roof. I lived on the 5th floor, so the signal loss due to the length of coax run from those antennas wasn't enough to cause problems. What I liked was when the skip on 37.18 really ran heavily I could hear Ocean County (Tom's River), NJ as if they were right on top of me, and one bleak and cold winter afternoon I was able to hear a motorcycle cop in NYC on a pursuit. I couldn't imagine a place as big as NYC running on that low band channel: go figure! Now, on low band you can also get a "short skip" dependent on weather conditions, and I discovered that many years before my move to Lubbock. I worked for the ambulance service in Big Spring, TX. We operated from the local nursing home who owned the ambulance service. We sat on a bit of a hill, and one evening after the nursing home patients had been put to bed a bit earlier than usual, I walked out to one of our units and turned on the two-way just to see what was going on. As soon as that ol' Motorola radio warmed up I heard a unit in the distance literally hollering, "Headquarters where's that ambulance? These people are badly hurt." I almost jumped! Our hotline hadn't rung and I had heard any police units running "hot" anywhere. But dispatch told the guy that the ambulance had been dispatched some 8 minutes before and that they should've already been there. I was vexed! I was about to pickup the mic and see what was going on when the same unit I had heard told dispatch that the ambulance had just arrive. I was even more vexed, since we hadn't gotten a call anywhere and it just had to be in or area. Wrong! When dispatch replied the second time it was close to the bottom of the hour. In those days, they would clear with location and call sign at the top and bottom of the hour, not after every transmission. So I freaked out when she cleared the channel and I found that she was down near Beaumont, TX.....over 500 miles from me. Radios! Damn....! :undecided:
 
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