POV response gets FF a ticket
- Thread starter Bigassfireman
- Start date
(2) The driver of an emergency vehicle may:
(a) Park or stand irrespective of the provisions of sections 304.014 to 304.026*;
( B) Proceed past a red or stop signal or stop sign, but only after slowing down as may be necessary for
safe operation;
© Exceed the prima facie speed limit so long as the driver does not endanger life or property;
(d) Disregard regulations governing direction of movement or turning in specified directions.
307.175. Motor vehicles and equipment which are operated by any member of an organized fire
department, ambulance association, or rescue squad, whether paid or volunteer, may be operated on
streets and highways in this state as an emergency vehicle under the provisions of section 304.022,
RSMo, while responding to a fire call or ambulance call or at the scene of a fire call or ambulance call
and while using or sounding a warning siren and using or displaying thereon fixed, flashing or rotating
blue lights, but sirens and blue lights shall be used only in bona fide emergencies. Permits for the
operation of such vehicles equipped with sirens or blue lights shall be in writing and shall be issued and
may be revoked by the chief of an organized fire department, organized ambulance association, or
rescue squad and no person shall use or display a siren or blue lights on a motor vehicle, fire,
ambulance, or rescue equipment without a valid permit authorizing the use. A** permit to use a siren or
lights as heretofore set out does not relieve the operator of the vehicle so equipped with complying with
all other traffic laws and regulations. Violation of this section constitutes a class A misdemeanor.
(a) Park or stand irrespective of the provisions of sections 304.014 to 304.026*;
( B) Proceed past a red or stop signal or stop sign, but only after slowing down as may be necessary for
safe operation;
© Exceed the prima facie speed limit so long as the driver does not endanger life or property;
(d) Disregard regulations governing direction of movement or turning in specified directions.
307.175. Motor vehicles and equipment which are operated by any member of an organized fire
department, ambulance association, or rescue squad, whether paid or volunteer, may be operated on
streets and highways in this state as an emergency vehicle under the provisions of section 304.022,
RSMo, while responding to a fire call or ambulance call or at the scene of a fire call or ambulance call
and while using or sounding a warning siren and using or displaying thereon fixed, flashing or rotating
blue lights, but sirens and blue lights shall be used only in bona fide emergencies. Permits for the
operation of such vehicles equipped with sirens or blue lights shall be in writing and shall be issued and
may be revoked by the chief of an organized fire department, organized ambulance association, or
rescue squad and no person shall use or display a siren or blue lights on a motor vehicle, fire,
ambulance, or rescue equipment without a valid permit authorizing the use. A** permit to use a siren or
lights as heretofore set out does not relieve the operator of the vehicle so equipped with complying with
all other traffic laws and regulations. Violation of this section constitutes a class A misdemeanor.
twodogs603
Member
The officer is upset because he was using lights and siren in his POV, but wrote him for reckless driving? No ticket for unauthorized equipment?
The Missouri state code pretty much spells it out that he is authorized to use lights as he was. The Missouri code also says this:
4. An "emergency vehicle" is a vehicle of any of the following types:
(1) A vehicle operated by the state highway patrol, the state water patrol, the Missouri capitol police, a conservation agent, or a state park ranger, those vehicles operated by enforcement personnel of the state highways and transportation commission, police or fire department, sheriff, constable or deputy sheriff, federal law enforcement officer authorized to carry firearms and to make arrests for violations of the laws of the United States, traffic officer or coroner or by a privately owned emergency vehicle company;
(2) A vehicle operated as an ambulance or operated commercially for the purpose of transporting emergency medical supplies or organs;
(3) Any vehicle qualifying as an emergency vehicle pursuant to section 307.175;
Section 307.175 is quoted in the post above mine.. I think the officer will lose this case.
The Missouri state code pretty much spells it out that he is authorized to use lights as he was. The Missouri code also says this:
4. An "emergency vehicle" is a vehicle of any of the following types:
(1) A vehicle operated by the state highway patrol, the state water patrol, the Missouri capitol police, a conservation agent, or a state park ranger, those vehicles operated by enforcement personnel of the state highways and transportation commission, police or fire department, sheriff, constable or deputy sheriff, federal law enforcement officer authorized to carry firearms and to make arrests for violations of the laws of the United States, traffic officer or coroner or by a privately owned emergency vehicle company;
(2) A vehicle operated as an ambulance or operated commercially for the purpose of transporting emergency medical supplies or organs;
(3) Any vehicle qualifying as an emergency vehicle pursuant to section 307.175;
Section 307.175 is quoted in the post above mine.. I think the officer will lose this case.
bwoodruff
Member
Grotonems5
Member
This happened in November according to the original article:
Volunteer Firefighter Ticketed While Responding | KOMU.com | Columbia, MO |
Sounds like bad blood between the local PD and FD and that the Chiefs need to get together with the city council (or whatever governing body in that area) and get this conflict resolved.
Another part of the article:
Emergency equipment doesn't mean you can drive recklessly, if he was. We really don't know whether he was or not given the wildly varying positions of the Chiefs.
Volunteer Firefighter Ticketed While Responding | KOMU.com | Columbia, MO |
Sounds like bad blood between the local PD and FD and that the Chiefs need to get together with the city council (or whatever governing body in that area) and get this conflict resolved.
Another part of the article:
Emergency equipment doesn't mean you can drive recklessly, if he was. We really don't know whether he was or not given the wildly varying positions of the Chiefs.
calebsheltonmed23
Member
Bigassfireman said:
For one, I have explained the law in the state law sticky thread in visual warning. Violation of the lighting law is a class A misdemeanor. There's a reason he was charged with reckless driving. The police department knows good and well that the law was followed, and that it does classify, per MO state statutes, as an emergency vehicle. Reckless driving, speeding, running stop signs, etc, can still be written while responding emergency to a call, whether it's volunteer or not. It's left up to the officer to determine what's legal, and illegal at that point. You are to respond with "due regard to life and property". If an officer doesn't think you should be driving 70mph in a 55mph, he has the right to write the ticket. And as always, you can fight it in court, but no point. Officers will always win. I was given 2 tickets last year, 1 for failure to stop at a stop sign, 1 for speeding. Both while running Code 3, lights and sirens, and both by troopers. Stop sign was at 0200 to 0300 on a Wednesday on a highway. Speeding was also on the same highway, but was reduced to a lower speed than the original speed to "cut me a break". I believe it was around 1900 hrs on a school night. Not very busy times at all for that area, but some officers care more than others about hounding the fire fighters. I know one deputy that no longer works for a local county that would issue tickets to ambulances and transport officers driving out of area police vehicles. Needless to say, he got canned for reasons previously named, and all citations were revoked. Some officers get on power trips, and those are the bad apples. And before anyone goes saying I'm a cop hater for writing this, suck a nut and look at my other posts.
We all know towns where the police department and the other emergency services agencies don't see eye to eye
I can't really comment, because i have no idea how reckless the FF was going, and at the same time, I have no idea if the officer
got up on the wrong side today.
I can't really comment, because i have no idea how reckless the FF was going, and at the same time, I have no idea if the officer
got up on the wrong side today.
theolog
Member
We are blessed with FDs and PDs that - for the most part - get along famously.
Would I write a fireman responding? Yup, sure would. But he'd have to be doing some really stupid shit (as in dangerous, careless, reckless, absurdly high speed) to hold one from me.
If he's running 65 to a trash can fire at 4pm, I'm gonna say something. If he's running 85 at 4am for a structure fire, I'm probably not going to address it. And in my state, red lights for volunteers are "courtesy lights" which I think is ridiculous. Volunteers cannot have sirens and they are not emergency vehicles. That's why I just bought the LCS869 for my truck...multiple air horn tones. :thumbsup:
Would I write a fireman responding? Yup, sure would. But he'd have to be doing some really stupid shit (as in dangerous, careless, reckless, absurdly high speed) to hold one from me.
If he's running 65 to a trash can fire at 4pm, I'm gonna say something. If he's running 85 at 4am for a structure fire, I'm probably not going to address it. And in my state, red lights for volunteers are "courtesy lights" which I think is ridiculous. Volunteers cannot have sirens and they are not emergency vehicles. That's why I just bought the LCS869 for my truck...multiple air horn tones. :thumbsup:
calebsheltonmed23
Member
BackYardSales said:
According to the link above, they charged him with reckless driving, yet say he was disobeying the law as AN EMERGENCY VEHICLE. What they are saying, is he broke this law: 304.022. That's a class A misdemeanor. Care to give reason why they charged him with reckless driving, a class B misdemeanor?: 304.012. Please, do explain! They know they wouldn't have a case for 304.022, so they charged him with one they know they can win with, 304.012.
calebsheltonmed23
Member
theolog said:
That's a big reason why it's at officer discretion. Big 'ol difference between a house fire and a stubbed toe.
firefighter31
Member
and this is why I'm mounting a video camera in my pov when I get it all set up. That way there is no discussion on matters like this should I get pulled over during a response, I will have it on camera so there will be no argument about if i'm in the wrong or not. If its on video then I can't fight it. If it shows I wasnt breaking the law then I will fight the matter. Its all about accountability!
just my 1/4cent
just my 1/4cent
Cops writing other cops tickets? Wow. Just wow. That does not happen here, on duty or off. It's called professional courtesy.
And if a local cop has an issue with a volunteer during a POV response, it's usually handled after the run. Let the public get the help they need, then address it. But we have a very good relationship with the police around here. They know us, we know them. Most 'blue light' issues just result in the police notifying the chief, who hands down a solid ass chewing/punishment. Fixed. No drama.
And if a local cop has an issue with a volunteer during a POV response, it's usually handled after the run. Let the public get the help they need, then address it. But we have a very good relationship with the police around here. They know us, we know them. Most 'blue light' issues just result in the police notifying the chief, who hands down a solid ass chewing/punishment. Fixed. No drama.
I find American law confusing (being a British person) so excluding that, I think that everyone who can drive skilled to an emergency even when using a POV should be perfectly allowed to do so. In my extended opinion, I think there should be a POV response licencing system where you can go on a free course locally, to train similar to what law enforcement do in terms of skilled and professional driving so the excuses of risks and crashes is... NIL.
calebsheltonmed23
Member
C420sailor said:
That is usually what happens. It usually goes to the Chief of the fire department, and then he/she takes it from there. Usually a slap on the wrist and a talking to, but sometimes you lose your permit. When I got the tickets, it went to my Chief also. It was BS, but just something everyone may have to deal with.
C420sailor said:
Cops enforcing the law? Wow. Just wow.
It's surprising how many people misunderstand the whole term professional courtesy, thinking it means the same as diplomatic immunity. Having a badge is not a permisson to break traffic laws, just because you can get away with it.
You want to show me professional courtesy? Have the courtesy of not breaking the law in my jurisdiction - then you're not putting me in the awkward position of having to ticket you.
(Yeah yeah, can of worms, dead horse, I know, I know.)
RJ* said:
I guess it's different over here. Where I live, we're very tight with the local police department. They cut us slack with regard to citations and as a result we take care of them. We let them use our firehouse for meals, let them use our gym and showers, etc. If a call comes over as 'officer involved' we treat it like a 'firefighter involved'. People come out of the woodwork and we get on scene FAST. Same team, same fight. We give each other certain liberties because we rely on each other.
I just can't fathom state police pulling over local police while running code enroute to an emergency call. Unless the local guy is truly driving dangerously, that's a dick-swinging power trip. A true professional would handle it after the run.
RJ* said:
There's a big difference.... A person responding code 3 is not immune to traffic law. There is a big difference between responding emergency traffic and reckless driving. It's bad enough most volunteers outfit their own vehicles, buy most of their equipment and take time out of their own family time to help someone else. I surely would not volunteer anymore if I had to worry about being ticketed for going 15 over...... now your talking about a traffic citation that will go on that individuals driving record, increasing their insurance premiums etc. making the cost of volunteering even higher.