Private car with LPRs

emergency_ram12 said:
There is a county in Missouri that has one on each corner of the vehicle. They are being used to track stolen vehicles. With FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) anything and everything is open to citizens. Especially with being in the military I have called the MPs numerous times and have gotten information about someone by using their license plates. If license plates were meant to be private they wouldn't have numbers on them instead they would have QR Codes or barcodes. I like the idea of LEO's or Reposessors having LPRs as it makes their work a little safer IMO.

No qualms with LEOs.


But repo men are private citizens, period. Make their work a little safer ? Yeah you bet, instead of following your daughter around in a car and run the risk of been spotted, they can just wait for her in the dark when she returns to her apartment.


Let's be serious here ... ANPR for private businesses are okay as long as the operators only compare the mined data to their own DB of wanted vehicles. Anything else is a tragedy waiting to happen.
 
nerdly_dood said:
Saw an old Malibu (2002 or so) with LPRs a few years ago on I-66, out in the mountains and pretty far from the DC burbs. No blinkies, but I could see a laptop like the ones a lot of police cars have, so it might have been a state police test machine or something.

I could have been a dummy car rigged with a wireless LPR. Interstates around the DC area are full of dummy cars with dummies in them sitting on the side of the interstates.
 
TheGatekeeper said:
No qualms with LEOs.
But repo men are private citizens, period. Make their work a little safer ? Yeah you bet, instead of following your daughter around in a car and run the risk of been spotted, they can just wait for her in the dark when she returns to her apartment.


Let's be serious here ... ANPR for private businesses are okay as long as the operators only compare the mined data to their own DB of wanted vehicles. Anything else is a tragedy waiting to happen.

The way I understand it is all repo company's see is what they enter into their database so they only see info they had alpr or not.
 
Not everywhere as some here suggested.


You might want to re-read the thread. ;)
 
well i have been in the repo business since 1998 and been around every alpr system out there for the repo industry and i can tell you without a doubt the only plate info we have access to are plates we enter for vehicles out for repo or plates banks enter into the system that are out for repo so unless your car is out for repo and has been entered into the systems by a bank or repo company or lein holder we WILL NOT see your personal data when we scan your plate this goes for all the systems for repo use drn mvtrac reposystems etc.

Jamey@NNE said:
That's just what I was told by my alpr manufacturer that's why I said it. I've read the thread thanks.
 
delcofirecop said:
well i have been in the repo business since 1998 and been around every alpr system out there for the repo industry and i can tell you without a doubt the only plate info we have access to are plates we enter for vehicles out for repo or plates banks enter into the system that are out for repo so unless your car is out for repo and has been entered into the systems by a bank or repo company or lein holder we WILL NOT see your personal data when we scan your plate this goes for all the systems for repo use drn mvtrac reposystems etc.

You are correct, the tow truck driver, scouts, and dispatchers, are only able to view the info that is loaded onto the company system. What you are not told is the system also records and stores every license plate it reads, along with a location tag. That is the information that is sold, and the buyer is the one who runs plates and builds the tracking data base. This brings a lot of money for the tow truck companies, and the details of this side are usually held at the owner level per agreement with the equipment manufactures. There are scout cars that are not part of any wrecker/repo company. They are strictly data mining. The typical car is a rental, switched out weekly. The general public, those that give attention, are focused on the LE side of ALRP's, and have not fully realized what the private sector is doing. It is really kind of funny, the same companies that sell to LE sell to the private sector, much like radar detector technology is sold to the radar detector manufactures by the radar builders.
 
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I don't understand why everyone panties are in a bunch over this...


They're pics of a STATE OWNED registration plate in a PUBLIC area. How is this any different than an officer following someone on surveillance, taking pics of them, or just taking pics in general of any/everything, then storing them on a flash drive?


Or, how is this any different to another hot button issue, filming/photographing the police? It's been argued this is a constitutionally protected activity, as there's no expectation of privacy IN PUBLIC.


I fail to see how this is any different.
 
Well, your average Joe can take a picture of you car's state-owned licence plate, it still won't tell him where you live.
 
TheGatekeeper said:
Well, your average Joe can take a picture of you car's state-owned licence plate, it still won't tell him where you live.

This DOESN'T tell where the RO lives. The only thing this 'camera' does is just that, takes a picture.


ALPR-PAGIS_LG_US-EN.jpg


This is the program I use at work, PAGIS, as 1 of the 2 ALPR systems my dept has is on my assigned squad... for now; it's a CVPI and therefore doesn't get driven much in the winter, so it's getting pulled and remounted on a Utility with AWD.


There's 4 cameras per system. Each of the cameras has 2 lens. One takes the pic on the top, a pic of the vehicle and plate. The other takes a closer pic of the plate, inputs it into a letter recognition program, which then displays it's 'interpretation' in the white box under the pic of the plate. It is NOT right all the time. If the plate is dirty, covered, or just at the wrong angle, it'll read wrong, or not at all.


From there, the 'read' will be compared to a database for comparison to stolen, wanted, missing, overdue parking tickets or other vehicle plates of interest. If there is a 'hit', it shows as a 'hit' to the letters only. Thus, it may 'read' a plate from one state, compare it to the database which has a 'hit' of a plate from another state. EX, reads ND/ABC123, but only sees the ABC123. In the database, there's a stolen plate from TX/ABC123. It's the officer's responsibility to then compare the 'read', the 'hit', and visual inspection, relay this to dispatch, or disregard the 'hit' if it's as stated above.


Because it does not 'read' the state, it therefore cannot 'run' the 'read'. Thus, officers get NO registered owner information. Most states have laws prohibiting this, including ND. Thus, for me to get any RO info, I still have to run it manually via the MDC or dispatch.


At the end of start and end of each shift, the system gets updated via the 2 greyed out buttons in the middle of the pic. End shift uploads the 'reads' to the database for comparison. Even though I use the system, I am not allowed to review it in the station, that's only delegated to admin and investigators. The only other info item stored is the GPS coordinates of where/when the pic was taken. However, this technology is already on nearly every smartphone out there. Each pic you take has the GPS applied to it, so this technology is nothing new or surprising either, unless you've been living under a rock. The stored database it 'purged' every X amount of days, usually anywhere from 60-120 days, which deletes all record of the 'read' unless it's locked for evidence reasons in an active investigation.


Thus, again, this is only a pic of not even a STATE OWNED plate, just the letters/numbers of.... in a PUBLIC place.


There are lots of misconceptions about this system for those that haven't taken the time to look into it.
 
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TheGatekeeper said:
Well, your average Joe can take a picture of you car's state-owned licence plate, it still won't tell him where you live.

I'm not worried about the average Joe. And yes, the average Joe does have the ability to pull an address from a license plate. Most States are on publicdata. Nor do I have a problem with LE agencies using ALRP. However the thing I have an issue with, is the private companies that are using ALPR's and harvesting the license plate data, tracking, identifying, and selling the data to other private companies. This was admitted by the private company that is trying to stop a change in the law in California.
 
HILO said:
I'm not worried about the average Joe. And yes, the average Joe does have the ability to pull an address from a license plate.

In most states, you can go to the DMV, pay a search fee, and get the results directly from the state.
 
rwo978 said:
In most states, you can go to the DMV, pay a search fee, and get the results directly from the state.

That is correct, and most States are always looking for extra money, and sell subscriptions to DMV records to private companies. That is how private companies like LexisNexus and Public Data do it. The people who think private companies can not or do not collect data on, or track citizens, are mistaken.


Like most people, I live a really boring life. And I am not worried that I am going to be found on camera doing something I would be ashamed of. I do not really like the idea of anti gun groups parked at gun shows, recording license plate numbers and tracking people who go to the shows. And that happens, go to a gun show and just walk the parking lot and look for people siting in their cars taking pictures of license plates, or rolling video. And while not trying to sound like a nut bag myself, how much do you really know about the Church of Scientology? They employee members who search the county tax records, drive through the wealthy neighborhoods, and the hig end shopping areas to cull info on people they would like to either recruit or extort. They are not the only 'religious' group that does this. Even the drug cartels track their buyers through license plates, as well as looking for LE. On that note, ask any south boarder cop and they will tell you what ever technology LE is using, the cartels are using, and often have better or more enhanced technology.
 
TheGatekeeper said:
My point exactly.

:confused: :confused: :confused:


What?

Well, your average Joe can take a picture of you car's state-owned licence plate, it still won't tell him where you live.

You stated this. Myself and HILO stated that there's ways the general public can get license data. I also gave info on how the system works, stating it doesn't run plates.


So how exactly is this your 'point'?
 
rwo978 said:
:confused: :confused: :confused:

What?


You stated this. Myself and HILO stated that there's ways the general public can get license data. I also gave info on how the system works, stating it doesn't run plates.


So how exactly is this your 'point'?

Maybe he is a scientology spy:cool:
 
My point is that gaining a motorist's personal data from an ALPR is more insidious than having to buy a database (as a private individual ?), or merely walking into a DMV office to request info on a specific person, which would be, I merely suppose, highly suspicious.


Phew... been a slice discussing with you guys ;)
 
Jamey@NNE said:
But with alpr you are just taking the picture you still have to run it in the databases or dmv same as writing it in a notepad.

Exactly...


I don't think he even bothered reading my rundown on how the system actually works... :duh: :duh: :Banghead: :Banghead:
 
Jamey@NNE said:
But with alpr you are just taking the picture you still have to run it in the databases or dmv same as writing it in a notepad.



I know how the systems work. I know how the LE/municipal version works, where all license plates scanned are stored for a set period of time, and can be cross ran for tracking, and have to be ran for owner info individually. I know how the version used by the repo drivers and spotters search for pre loaded hits as well as collect all plates scanned along with a GPS tag. I also know that these private systems are not typically set up for the drivers and spotters to access. However, I also know, (as should everyone who has read the article linked above) that these data bases are for sale. I also know that there are subscription based sites that have DMV info, and are used with computer programs that take the ALRP data and matches it with the DMV data with an 85% success rate.


LE agencies and municipal agencies like Parking Enforcement respond to hits for warrants, unpaid parking tickets, stolen vehicle/plates, and in some states, inspection and insurance. My cities Citizens on Patrol cars now have ALRP's. All the license plates that are scanned are stored for a few months, depending on agency policy. This system has proven very effective in criminal investigations. All ALRP scans are reviewed in the area a specific crime is being investigated. The plates scanned in the targeted area are then cross ran for scans city wide. A vehicle that shows up at an early time on one side of the city, later in the target area, and then back at the originating side becomes a vehicle of interest. The plates that attract interest are also ran through the DMV, and registered owners are checked for history as well as known associations. Dallas has closed robberies, homicides, and rapes with the assistance of ALRP. This is a very useful tool for Law Enforcement.


And yes, private citizens can take a picture of a license plate, or write it down, and then run the plate though public data. It is very easy. I know because I do it. Every time I see a plain car with ALRPs I stop, and am very obvious while taking pictures, and have publicdata on an app on my phone. I am also nosy and like to screw with wackers and wannabes, and use this same procedure when my interest is peaked. If I find something of true concern, it gets sent to the local LEO's.


But the private companies are not collecting and matching strictly for concerns of public safety. While Vigilant Solutions makes big noise about their relationship with LE agencies, it is pretty obvious that they are indeed collecting, identifying, and tracking vehicles and drivers for profit (and how does a LE agency profit from ALRP? They dont, LE agencies are not profit based).


From their web page FAQ;


The private data that is shared with Vigilant Solutions’ hosted solution comes from a number of sources. The largest source of data is from Digital Recognition Network (DRN), a partner company to Vigilant.





Digital Recognition Network is a data company exclusively focused on data derived from vehicles. By capturing, storing and grouping data on vehicle location, where vehicles go and who drives them, DRN is able to provide value to clients to help them make better, more profitable decisions. An industry pioneer in vehicle asset location technology and services, DRN fuels a national network of more than 550 Affiliates employing Vigilant’s mobile LPR to gather data. Because this technology is used in every major metropolitan area in the United States, DRN captures data on over 50 million vehicles each month. This data is shared to Vigilant’s National Vehicle Location Service for use by law enforcement – there is no reciprocal sharing of data back to DRN.


Vigilant Solutions FAQs


Vigilant Solutions is pretty clear that "license plate reader data, by itself, is completely anonymous", but then go on to explain how they link the data, mostly through Digital Recognition Network, another private data company that is a partner (read owned) by V.S. Vigilant is fighting pretty hard against various states attempts to limit private use of LPR's, and why would a private company fight against such attempts? Because they sell the info for profit to other private companies. Think about the companies who sell the red light cameras, they only sell to LE agencies, and all the data is kept regulated within the LE agency. The red light camera companies provied the equipment and technology, and get a portion of the money paid by the violators, but it is the LE agency who reviews, checks, and issues these violations, the company does not know who, just how many are violating.


This is real, private companies are tracking our movements. Through our driving habits, credit/debit card purchases, cell phones, and internet use. And with face recognition soft wear becoming more common, the private companies will be tapping into that as well. There is little to nothing we can do to prevent this, except go off the grid, and it really has no bearing on my, yours, or most peoples lives, I just do not care for it.
 
Saw a corolla at a gas station with two LPRs on the trunk. I didn't get a picture, but they had a bumper sticker mentioning "Safer driving" and a phone number. Kinda kicking myself over not taking a picture.


Oh, and..

rwo978 said:
it's a CVPI and therefore doesn't get driven much in the winter, so it's getting pulled and remounted on a Utility with AWD.
The PD I support uses PAGIS (or 3M now, and man, did their support go downhill). And with our fleet change from Vics to Tahoes, the LPR's are getting mounted to the roof. Except our new Tahoe's are slicktops, where the Vics have Liberties/Scorpions. (I don't do this, mind you, I just support the MDT)


The first one that was done has been nicknamed Mouseears. I'll try to take a pic sometime.
 
kitsune86 said:
The PD I support uses PAGIS (or 3M now, and man, did their support go downhill). And with our fleet change from Vics to Tahoes, the LPR's are getting mounted to the roof. Except our new Tahoe's are slicktops, where the Vics have Liberties/Scorpions. (I don't do this, mind you, I just support the MDT)
The first one that was done has been nicknamed Mouseears. I'll try to take a pic sometime.

Ours are on Valors, like this...


awww.policemag.com__Images_photogallery_L_Valor_solar_lightbar.jpg


awww.policemag.com__Images_photogallery_L_Exterior_3q.jpg
 
that depends on the state you live in. some states dmv plate data is easily obtained by the general public. or by just going to the dmv and asking.

TheGatekeeper said:
Well, your average Joe can take a picture of you car's state-owned licence plate, it still won't tell him where you live.
 
i have been stopped by le and the general public in a camera car numerous times i have no issue with being stopped and checked out. i have had cops who were not as familiar with lpr go cool we need that and in fact one small town police chief who stopped me later got a law enforcement lpr system for his department. that being said yes i agree lpr can be dangerous to the general public if used wrong there have also been cops arrested for selling dmv data etc they got off their mdt's the point is it is all about how you use the data not every repo company or repo guy is bad just keep that in mind.
 
HILO said:
And yes, private citizens can take a picture of a license plate, or write it down, and then run the plate though public data. It is very easy. I know because I do it. Every time I see a plain car with ALRPs I stop, and am very obvious while taking pictures, and have publicdata on an app on my phone. I am also nosy and like to screw with wackers and wannabes, and use this same procedure when my interest is peaked. If I find something of true concern, it gets sent to the local LEO's.

Been running plates since I moved to Texas in 1998 via public data records. A co-worker clued me in on this ability and have had access every since.
 
This Crown Vic was northbound on Telegraph Road in Redford (metro Detroit) the other day. The plate is a "commercial"/truck plate, although plenty of people with passenger cars get this type of plate for some reason. Although PDs can get the same type plate, they usually get passenger plates when they're not using municipal plates.


P1040484t.jpg
 
Law Enforcement agencies use any plates. There are Highway Units in NYC that use Taxi plates and not to mention actual taxis.
 
jph2 said:
This Crown Vic was northbound on Telegraph Road in Redford (metro Detroit) the other day. The plate is a "commercial"/truck plate, although plenty of people with passenger cars get this type of plate for some reason. Although PDs can get the same type plate, they usually get passenger plates when they're not using municipal plates.

View attachment 74303

My question is, why block out the license plate in the picture of the car taking pictures of license plates? :undecided:
 
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Ugh, that looks goofy. Sorry, but it does. If you're going to have an alpr on the roof, at least have a LB, roofrack........ something.
 
"I stopped a car that was equipped with LPR equipment and they worked for a repo company. They would ride through apartment complexes and side streets looking for cars that were on their list. When they got a hit they would call the tow truck which was lurking about a mile away.


They said that new repo information was programmed into their laptop before they went out. The LPR was more efficient than they could ever be. I think we are going to see more of this.


I wrote the driver a.speeding citation, identified the two passengers and sent them on their way."

Identified them for what?
 
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Obviously the poster is a LEO, who made a traffic stop.  It is standard procedure of most any LE agency to check the ID of all occupants of a vehicle that has been stopped by a LEO. 
 
Obviously the poster is a LEO, who made a traffic stop.  It is standard procedure of most any LE agency to check the ID of all occupants of a vehicle that has been stopped by a LEO. 
I gathered that much.  I know LEO's can identify the driver and question passengers, but I don't think passengers are legally obligated to provide ID - especially just on a routine traffic stop.
 
I gathered that much.  I know LEO's can identify the driver and question passengers, but I don't think passengers are legally obligated to provide ID - especially just on a routine traffic stop.
I think the laws are diferent in various states.  And any LEO can ask you for ID, at any time, depending on the situation, you do not always have to give it.
 
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I am a Recovery Agent in the Portland, OR area, we use 3M PAGIS LPR's.  I think I am about even for the number of stolen cars my cameras have picked up and we reported to the local PD's vs. the number of repo's that I have found that I currently didnt have an active order for.  We use the system primarly for locating the vehicles that are in our active repo database, but do stumble upon the cars that banks want that we were not currently looking for. 

Heck, here is one from Yesterday....

as18.postimg.org_ckg89cz6h_lpr.png
imagur

I have no issues with LPR's as long as they are lawfully used by Public or Private Orgs.
 
Exactly...


I don't think he even bothered reading my rundown on how the system actually works... :duh: :duh: :Banghead: :Banghead:
With ALPR, you don't have to do it. It's done for you, automatically, in real time, and it does it relatively instantaneously. Five minutes as compared to five seconds is a HUGE difference.

Plus, it logs time, date, GPS coordinates, AND a photo of the plate and some of the vehicle (if not all of it). Again, HUGE difference. The amount of corroborating data saved with LPR is substantially larger than the average traffic stop with in-car video (not to mention random reads and occurrences while driving around).

In terms of system effectiveness, the ELSAG MPH-900 system beats all, hands down. Period. No questions. Fed Sig's PIPS is..."okay", but not that great (even when its 4-camera system is compared to a 3-camera ELSAG system). The 3M and Vigilant systems are a joke, but they work. I may be biased, but I've also got a crap-ton of experience installing and working on those things.

Mounting them on the roof on any vehicle other than an SUV is just ridiculous (unless you don't have space on the decklid).
 
Most new in car video systems also track GPS coordinates of the police car and thus, anything seen by the camera's location.

Besides, this is the VEHICLE MEDIA forum, for pictures and videos of emergency services vehicles, not the political discussions forum
 
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