PSP Crackdown on Interior Lights

RescueWV

Member
Dec 31, 2010
337
Central PA
Police target firefighters for using illegal lightsFirefighters say law needs to changehttp://www.wtae.com/investigations/police-target-firefighters-for-using-illegal-lights/36481694

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Ironically, this is the same news channel and reporter that essentially threw volunteers under the bus a few months ago in a piece that compared response times of unstaffed volunteer departments to the city of Pittsburgh's career-staffed stations, but that's not entirely pertinent to the current thing.

There have been isolated anecdotes of individual troopers, either fresh out of the academy, or older with a bone to pick, singling out volunteers, but this seems to be a coordinated crackdown from different barracks within the region.  Maybe this will be the catalyst to actually get the laws updated, or it could lead to the total elimination of blue lights (which I can admit wouldn't be entirely bad.)
 

paff2

Member
Nov 30, 2010
842
Lancaster, PA
Hopefully it will lead to a revising of current laws. They are about as clear as mud right now. The only thing that's clear is that the law requires a roof mounted light with no more than 2 rotating bulbs in it.

Well there you have it. It's obvious how outdated that law is.
 
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JazzDad

Member
Aug 5, 2011
5,165
USA
OK, I'll just drive extra slowly, without any lights, on my way to the fire at your house. 

Of all the things the State Police could put effort into, going after fellow public servants seems a tad petty.
 
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Retired1

Member
Jun 1, 2010
1,912
Woodward County, OK
Wouldn't it be the right thing to do to just to follow/obey the current laws and work with your legislators to change them to laws of your liking?
 

paff2

Member
Nov 30, 2010
842
Lancaster, PA
Wouldn't it be the right thing to do to just to follow/obey the current laws and work with your legislators to change them to laws of your liking?
The current laws as on the books still refers to rotators and lamps. Up until now any of the Psp Fire Marshall who are responsible for enforcing the laws would all give different interpretation. Up until a few minutes ago I was never able to get anything in writing as to what is being enforced. They now released a PowerPoint as to there interpretation of the law which they revised on there own.

Guess they can interpret it how they want without an official law change.
 

acklover

Member
Apr 28, 2014
376
Southern Indiana
They say that they don't want firefighters being mistaken for police. Don't punish the folks trying to get to an emergency, Punish the people impersonating police. The officer quoted in the video says that they are concerned with public perception, they should be more concerned with public safety. This was floating around on another FB board last night, and it got ugly between firefighters and police members. I think the post finally got deleted. 
 

paff2

Member
Nov 30, 2010
842
Lancaster, PA
Oh and the PowerPoint makes it clear that demo vehicles may NOT display any lighting because they are not authorized vehicles. Really?
 

kitn1mcc

Member
May 24, 2010
2,571
Old lyme ct
Wow going after fire dept vehicle like that.   Do the state police have nothing better to do when go after them like this .  i like how the PW director just did not care
 

Carlos SpicyWeiner

Lifetime VIP Donor
May 3, 2012
5,233
Lakeland, Florida
Oh and the PowerPoint makes it clear that demo vehicles may NOT display any lighting because they are not authorized vehicles. Really?

ANY lighting is overboard.. however; I don't believe demo vehicles SHOULD be anything other than amber, green, or white. 

and I venture to say Amber more than anything because green is vollies in some areas and also not a color available in every product. 
 
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Dec 4, 2011
1,126
US NC
Wouldn't it be the right thing to do to just to follow/obey the current laws and work with your legislators to change them to laws of your liking?

I said the same thing Chief, but a person responded by telling me that "I was the reason we need condoms". Apparently people in this debate aren't prone to having much logic. 
 
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paff2

Member
Nov 30, 2010
842
Lancaster, PA
So we all get thrown in one bowl eh?classy!

1. The official state law is so old it still requires rotators. Yeah good luck there.

2. The latest release is simply a power point updating the PSP interpretation of the law to allow LED lights. There was no change to the law to allow this.

So in your legal expertise what should we really follow?

Call me what you want but my opinion is that this is simply a PSP bandaid to a problem they know exists. They haven't been giving tickets at this point just warnings. I'm not convinced a ticket would hold up in court.
 

paff2

Member
Nov 30, 2010
842
Lancaster, PA
ANY lighting is overboard.. however; I don't believe demo vehicles SHOULD be anything other than amber, green, or white. and I venture to say Amber more than anything because green is vollies in some areas and also not a color available in every product. 
I couldn't agree more. However that isn't what they are saying according to the PowerPoint.
 

Retired1

Member
Jun 1, 2010
1,912
Woodward County, OK
If you are referring to me, I have no legal expertise. I do have 39+ years of enforcement experience. In that 39 years I have seen many changes to the laws. Those changes were often driven by the input from those most affected or most influential. I, personally, submitted regular documents to the Texas Legislature giving my opinions on actions being considered on traffic laws. As a motorcycle traffic law enforcement officer I often happened across laws that were no longer appropriate for the times. In some cases, I just found them personally offensive (the complete text of my lengthy diatribe against the mandatory motorcycle helmet law was read on the floor of the State Capitol).

Not every suggestion I ever made was enacted, but over time, most traffic laws were brought into form to address current needs. 

I chose to fight for the changes, not to pick and choose which laws I would obey and which ones not.

Fortunately, I do not live in one of the states where I am affected by the laws being discussed here.  

PS: I have no dog in this hunt. My participation in this discussion ends here.
 
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paff2

Member
Nov 30, 2010
842
Lancaster, PA
If you are referring to me, I have no legal expertise. I do have 39+ years of enforcement experience. In that 39 years I have seen many changes to the laws. Those changes were often driven by the input from those most affected or most influential. I, personally, submitted regular documents to the Texas Legislature giving my opinions on actions being considered on traffic laws. As a motorcycle traffic law enforcement officer I often happened across laws that were no longer appropriate for the times. In some cases, I just found them personally offensive (the complete text of my lengthy diatribe against the mandatory motorcycle helmet law was read on the floor of the State Capitol).Not every suggestion I ever made was enacted, but over time, most traffic laws were brought into form to address current needs. 

I chose to fight for the changes, not to pick and choose which laws I would obey and which ones not.

Fortunately, I do not live in one of the states where I am affected by the laws being discussed here.  

PS: I have no dog in this hunt. My participation in this discussion ends here.
Nope was referring to the guy above my post and his comment that apparently people in this aren't prone to much logic. .

Carry on
 
Jun 18, 2013
3,725
PA
I'll keep this short.

The PA lighting laws are obsolete.     Review and updating of these laws would be the recommended fix.

PSP do not enforce these lighting laws equally throughout the state.  Depending on what area you are in certain troops don't seem to care or have better things to do...   however if asked officially that is probably not the case.

This directly contradicts with orders given by some fire companies (which shall remain nameless) who have advised their members to refrain from external lighting..   
 
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paff2

Member
Nov 30, 2010
842
Lancaster, PA
I'll keep this short.The PA lighting laws are obsolete.     Review and updating of these laws would be the recommended fix.

PSP do not enforce these lighting laws equally throughout the state.  Depending on what area you are in certain troops don't seem to care or have better things to do...   however if asked officially that is probably not the case.

This directly contradicts with orders given by some fire companies (which shall remain nameless) who have advised their members to refrain from external lighting..   
Well said. Is this area the regular troopers are to short staffed to really care apparently and the fire Marshall told me a while back he really doesn't care unless he gets a specific complaint about someone.
 

paff2

Member
Nov 30, 2010
842
Lancaster, PA
What is this powerpoint presentation you speak of?
It was sent to me by email. Haven't figured out how to make it an attachment. Pm your email and I will toward it to you.
 

kitn1mcc

Member
May 24, 2010
2,571
Old lyme ct
I do not get why the PSP has such a thing about the fire dept.  What would they do if the FD decided not to respond lights and sirens to a car fire or an accident on the turnpike or even respond at all.   also is this coming down from the top or the local troop.  Wonder if there is some reverse racism going on here as well
 

NPS Ranger

Member
May 21, 2010
1,989
Penn's Woods
First off, I'm not defending the current law which is needlessly complicated & seemingly interpreted different ways by different people.  The law was changed in the years after the 2 WTC attacks, OK City, Atlanta etc, after lobbying by the Pennsylvania Chiefs of Police Association, who wanted to reduce the chance that an imposter/terrorist could stick a dashlight on a civvie vehicle and gain access to a scene or sensitive area during a chaotic incident.  We've all heard of secondary devices, right?  Stage a small incident, then once everyone is there scratching their head and waiting for the bomb robot to arrive, drive in with a surplus Crown Vic loaded with ANFO in the trunk and a flashie on the dash, and take out the city's command structure and a lot of their first line responders.

The law applies equally to volunteer EMS, fire or SAR or a search dog owner, it doesn't discriminate against volunteer fire.  You can use blue roof lights but you can't use any interior lights or hideaways.  The thought was that any unmarked vehicle equipped with interior lights that was not known to be LE would be stopped & investigated.  Unfortunately the law was drafted before the explosion of LED emergency lighting, these days just about any use of LED's short of a roof bar would be prohibited on POV's.

Granted that volunteer ranks are shrinking dramatically, call volume and training hours are going up, and people can't be bothered to serve their communities as they once did, so I'm not in favor of laws that p*** off the volunteers who are left.  But we're just dealing with courtesy lights here, no sirens allowed, no breaking traffic laws.  A requirement for roof lights with mandated 360 degree visibility makes sense to many people, and that's what the law requires.  In view of increasingly high profile terrorist attacks in the news, I don't see the law being changed anytime soon.  If you want to lobby the legislature, argue for more tax breaks for volunteers or more equipment subsidies to replace PPE or better volunteer death benefits or whatever, but don't waste your time arguing for more blue blinkies cause it ain't gonna happen.
 

paff2

Member
Nov 30, 2010
842
Lancaster, PA
I'm just amused by the fact that if they are going to apply the law across the board there are lots of fire, ems, and police vehicles that are in clear violation.

Oh and the fact that I can keep my grill lights the way they are, take the Apollo visor bar out and put the opticom in its place. How will that look any less undercover? Oh and If i take out all my illegal lighting I am simply put a little throw light on but I will be less effectively lit especially to the rear. No way that I will ever drill into my tailgate to put lights on it. That's the only legal rear lighting. Nope don't get that one. My biggest beef is with the red light law on the authorized vehicles being different then dept owned emergency vehicles. I can legally put a ev plate on my pov but I am still subject to the different laws. Since I can use my pov to legally block a road why not allow it to be well lit?

Blue lights I can understand a little better since they are limited in what they can do and if they do drive to the scene they have to be parked off the road.

Glad to see the lawmaker in western pa is working to change some of the current law.
 

Phillyrube

Member
May 21, 2010
1,272
Flatistan
Ok, I'll throw a bomb.  Why not minimize POV response, and stand a duty shift at the station.  If a call comes in, a piece can roll immediately, and other members can respond to backfill?

Hard hat in place, goggles down, let the flaming begin......
 
Jun 18, 2013
3,725
PA
Ok, I'll throw a bomb.  Why not minimize POV response, and stand a duty shift at the station.  If a call comes in, a piece can roll immediately, and other members can respond to backfill?

Hard hat in place, goggles down, let the flaming begin......

In a perfect world..  this would be ideal..     But Volunteers are not paid and I can't see many willing to just hang around the station all the time waiting for a call.      Note I said many... there are some that are REALLY into it.. but probably not enough to fully respond to every call.  
 
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Phillyrube

Member
May 21, 2010
1,272
Flatistan
This is what I do...I'm a volunteer and I hang around the station for 12 hours at a shot, several times a month.

Now, speaking as a cop, (retired Sgt, 23 years on the job), and being a former PA volunteer, I sometimes think the use of POV lighting should be curtailed.  I have almost been run into by overzealous POV response.   I do have red lights in my truck, and they are hardly used.   It's hard enough to drive a fire truck with blasting air horns, siren, etc.   Responding without a siren and only lights is a losing combination.  Lights and sirens, OK, but as someone else alluded to, a lot of insurance companies will not cover you.  Had it happen to one of the guys in the squad.  USAA initially refused to cover a claim, and after a lot of back and forth, did, but made him swear off POV lights.  Most of us followed suit.
 
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paff2

Member
Nov 30, 2010
842
Lancaster, PA
Ok, I'll throw a bomb.  Why not minimize POV response, and stand a duty shift at the station.  If a call comes in, a piece can roll immediately, and other members can respond to backfill?
Hard hat in place, goggles down, let the flaming begin......





p>

Having duty crews for all volunteer stations will never happen. Call volume in some places would mean multiple days or a week without calls. At my station we can go for nearly a week without a call then have multiple calls in 24 hours. It's hard enough getting people to train and be available without asking them to sit around the station.

I asked a guy who is good friends with a trooper here what his friends opinion is off all this. His answer? Either troopers in that area have a axe to grind or there have been to many complaints about responders. So far in my county there have been zero warnings
 
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Phillyrube

Member
May 21, 2010
1,272
Flatistan
I asked a guy who is good friends with a trooper here what his friends opinion is off all this. His answer? Either troopers in that area have a axe to grind or there have been to many complaints about responders. So far in my county there have been zero warnings
I'll bet thats the issue.....
 

Phoenix_Rising

Lifetime VIP Donor
Feb 27, 2012
6,742
Berks County PA
Sadly that about sums it up: either someone has an axe to grind, or theres rampant abuse in that area. This happens every couple years in PA, some trooper somewhere gets a bug up his butt ( either rightfully so or otherwise) about the FD, and we all hear about this. What irked me this time around is them ( PSP ) coming out and flat out saying about how some FD vehicles may look like LEO's. You can pretty much toss out the rest of the article ( specifically citing the article out of Pittsburgh here) on how they want us to be safe, cause the meat and potatoes there was on how some POVs may or may not resemble unmarked LEOs. So where do I begin the flame war there: should we take away Fire Police too? That has the word Police in it, and the public may misinterpret that. We should get rid of "Special Fire Police": maybe someone will think they are Feds??

I say all that lightly because lets look at what they claim its all about, safety. Now lets look at all EVs in PA; regardless of function. If they want to go after Firefighters POVs, then lets go across the board and go after all "illegal" lighting on vehicles. This renders 75% of ambulances and fire trucks "illegal", as in the Commonwealth of PA, all forward facing white flashing lights must be rendered "off" when the vehicle is in park.The current law also makes most Police vehicles illegal, as NO vehicle is permitted flashing white/clear to the rear ( ie clear strobes in reverse lights). In fact; most PSP units I've seen are in violation of the "no flashing white to the front" while on vehicle stops as most fail to turn off the flashing takedowns on their bars , which for those who know PSP lighting, are no small light. PSP features the Whelen DUO bars, with SXTDLED takedowns. They are blindingly bright ( I would know, I have 4 of them in my Liberty ). 

Part of where it all falls apart is something another member touched on earlier without actually stating this ( on how some departments wont allow FFs to have exterior bars) : and a part some members here dont fully understand as this provides a unique problem. PA is a Commonwealth, not a state. This means a great deal in this regard; the boiled down version is that power falls to the lowest form of government. IE, in theory; that department is legally allowed to tell their members 'no exterior bars', however thats only legal in their area, not the rest of the Commonwealth. It all gets very dicey from there, and I wont sit here and argue most of the semantics I feel are valid simply because its all been discussed ad nauseum without no resolve to the end ( ie a change in the laws). And for those who have expressed how we should attempt change in the laws: trust me, we have, myself included. It has been brought to lawmakers attention multiple times. Its like the red-headed step child of 2 cousins , we all know its there, but if we dont talk about it, and noone gets stupid about things, then we just leave it go.

Until some trooper somewhere gets a bug up his butt, then we start this whole circus again. 

This is just the tip of the iceberg on the topic to me, but I felt the need to weigh in to give some of our other members some better understanding of the whys and hows on the whole topic.

These statements are my own and do not reflect the views or opinions of any company or department I represent. 
 
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paff2

Member
Nov 30, 2010
842
Lancaster, PA
I was just told yesterday that the federation sent a notice saying they won't license any ems agencies with illegal lighting. Soooo here we go. Another agency trying to determine letter of law. I am willing to bet they are only going to enforce the lightbar part and overlook the white law and others.
 
May 25, 2010
7,072
Tunkhannock, PA, USA
Im going to provide the PSP boulders address since he is in major violations :popcorn:

For one:

136979625963520.jpg

And two:  All I currently run is my lightbar, so I'm actually legal for the first time in a LONG time...  LoL


Now on to the topic at hand...  This law was obsolete about 3-5 years after it was set in place...  Theres been desperate need for an overhaul of it for quite some time...  My $0.02:  Have the law state that a roof mounted 360 beacon/lightbar and 2 other "light sources"...  And I personally think that all responders that wish to run lights should have EVOC/EVDT...
 
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Phillyrube

Member
May 21, 2010
1,272
Flatistan
Virginia is about the same as far as lighting enforcement.  Having just retired after 23 years on the PD, I can tell you all but a few officers are ignorant of lighting equipment laws.  I did a lot of stuff with vehicle inspections so I was always in the book.  We did have an officer that used to be a volunteer, and he was really hard ass on volunteers.  He has since retired.  Lately I have seen funeral cars bedecked in purple and white lights, and wreckers are now running amber and white.   Brought it to the attention of a couple cops in the ED one night, and all I got was a shoulder shrug.

Volunteers in Virginia can run 2 red or red and white lights.  Now, what constitutes a light?  One rotator with 4 bulbs.  4 lights?  Interior twin talon in red and white.  2 lights?  Lightbar divided by a siren housing.  One or two lights?  Lightbar with no divider.   One light?  Flashing red tail lights.  Are those the two lights?   No, straight illegal since POV cannot alter an existing lighting fixture, so no HAWS.   I get all over the state teaching, so I see a lot of volunteer vehicles, and almost all exclusively use interior LED lights.   Where I worked we didn't have many vols using lights, since we went to 24/7 manning.  The rural county where I live is 95% volunteer, and no POV lighting allowed per the county Emergency Manager.  

Good luck, guys!
 
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